Justice For Traitors

[SynthFG]

Destroying every meat shield makes no sense,

The alliances that were pulled in to honour treaties are being delt with quickly and decently, if only to get them out of the way

The core of the hedgmony, those who have bullied and intimadated for years will find a different face of karma

Nobody has forgotten the lessons of GW1

Edited May 5, 2009 by SynthFG

[Max Rockatansky]

Snip

I agree wholeheartedly, even. This is nothing more than fear. Fear caused by incoherent ramblings of a few petulant children afraid of getting their @#!es whipped good and proper for their transgressions. For what? I've been fighting this war for over a year, often times all by myself. I didn't lose several nations just so these jerks can get by with a love tap and a few minutes in time out. This is war. Maybe I'm old school, but I was taught that in war you must destroy your enemy. Not hope you can make out some day.

Look at this. Would they have done the same for any of us? They constantly say even today, that they would not show us any mercy, yet they cry the loudest for mercy to be shown to them. What's wrong with this picture? For years they have goaded us into "doing something" about their misdeeds and now when we get this chance we've failed to learn from the mistakes of the past and instead pat them on their little heads and send them to school with new lunchboxes and a few shiny quarters for the soda machine. For what? Was all the years of torment, anguish, and sacrifice worth it for this farcical peace? Not for me, it isn't. They were the ones who brought this war to us. Let's act like it, otherwise...what's the point? Kissing their *&%#es even now isn't going to solve any of the problems that brought this on in the first place.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Max Rockatansky

[boscher]

You dont achieve that by simply destroying everyone who does not follow your set of morals, boscher.

You need to convince them its much more in their own interest to act like you do.

Where did I say we have to destroy them? I think you are so lenient that it becomes dangerous, we are not talking about a bunch of kids who we can convince of what is best.

Anyhow we shouldn't even talk about peace for at least some months for the rest of 1V.

[President Obama]

I would rather die by being too merciful to my enemies than live in stagnation like we have seen in the age of the Continuum.

I don't want Karma to become the NPO. Vengeful peace terms are counter-productive and are not good for the game as a whole.

[HellAngel]

Months? That would be FAN like punishment. If you dont want to see something happening, dont do it. If we accept the presence and social acceptability of such terms, others will impose them on their victims, too.

If NPO doesnt learn their lesson, they will be destroyed in a second war, as i said before. Why am i so sure about this? Easy. They need allies from the Karma side to even pull such a stunt again out of sheer absence of strength. All Karma alliances, even those on the sidelines, we're disgusted by NPOs actions and will not support such a thing again, even if they did before.

[Requia]

To be FAN like wouldn't it need to be *years*, and encompass sneak attacks while the fallen nations are still under peace terms that prevent them from defending themselves?

[AlmightyGrub]

Ah, apologies, my mistake.

Everyone keeps saying this, but the big money question is -- who?

If honesty was a characteristic that would be rewarded on Bob I am sure quite a few people could answer that. In your mad haste to scramble to the public stoning of the NPO you seem to have overlooked some rather obvious facts. Karma my fat Aunty.

HellAngel speaks of Gramlins style justice and if Gramlins=Karma, I would be far more comfortable, because I trust them to at least be responsible. Some of the others among you, not so much. Back stabbing scum calling other people cowards doesn't sit well with me. Most of you need to take a long hard look at yourselves and judge yourself by the very standards you seek to set.

Margrave, tactically you may well be right. Crushing the NPO makes perfect sense, beat them within an inch of their life, give them terms that beat the ones Polaris received, berate them, mock them, ridicule them... then I and many others will be coming for you, because you will be what you detested. Kicking any alliance repeatedly in the head is not good form and never will be. The thing that defines polite and honorable society (that which Karma preaches by their default official position) is how we treat everyone, not just those who it is convenient to do so.

Punishment, revenge, judgment, it all seems to make so much sense. I can tell you I didn't need a beating to learn a lesson and I certainly did not need to fund the tech spent in this war either. So now will the NPO fund the next war against whoever you cut from the herd next?

People have asked me repeatedly why I do not support Karma's cause, you need look no further than Margrave as a shining example of why. Having lived through the beating Polaris received, the crippling reps and the removal of well-loved and long serving members of our alliance, I was reminded of what I do not want to happen to others ever again. The funny thing is I didn't need the lesson, I was in an alliance that disbanded rather than accept the Hegemony and their stupid terms. Until Karma, as a whole, shows they intend to treat their prey with fairness and real justice then I will continue not to support the rubbish that gets posted here.

Whilst I have the greatest respect for both LiquidMercury and Archon, I am genuinely afraid that Pandora is out of the box and that not even their responsibility and good sense will control people seeking revenge for every slight over the past 3 years. I am encouraged by the terms issued and accepted so far, but we all know that Old Guard were largely protected by their Bloc mates on Karma's side. Lets see what happens when Valhalla, TPF, IRON and the NPO are offered terms. That is the chance to show I was wrong and I will gladly admit it if and when I am.

Here is AlmightyGrub's pro-tip. Let bygones be truly bygones when this war is over. Wipe the slate clean and start again, you will find it as refreshing as I did. It is funny when you talk to the other side, after the dust has settled, you find that most of the time you aren't really all that different.

If it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees, perhaps not forcing people to live on their knees will breed a different world?

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Frankly I think the CoC term itself is offensive and inflammatory propaganda.

The NPO has been so dominant in this game for so long that pretty much every alliance around on every side has had to some degree a relationship of convenience with the NPO just to avoid being casually slaughtered on a whim, up until quite recently.

It was only a few months ago that Grämlins left Q, and the conventional wisdom was that *we* had committed suicide. I think that if it had been someone less obviously prepared to defend themselves the conventional wisdom would have been right. Slowly others planned and executed their exits. I am sure that some more exits were planned but some move more slowly than others for whatever reason...

Some people are fighting right now against the hegemony that were nominally part of the hegemony only days before this started.

And the flip side of that is that some people are fighting for the hegemony today only because their leaders were a little slower than the pack, and waited too long to cancel their own ties.

Clearly, it would make no sense to impose any sort of harsh sanctions across the board in such a situation. Those that fight honourably for a time to fulfil their obligations and then seek peace shouldnt be tormented unecessarily, and it's good to see that they are not.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Timeline]

I have read some of the posts in this topic, how ever not all, so please forgive me.

I would just like to make this point very clear, Karma is a name given to those who are fighting against The Hegemony, it has no leader or a centre point, yes it has key alliances as such do The Hegemony.

Who ever is attacking, say Valhalla it is up to them what reps they want from Valhalla, they do not need to talk to every alliance within "Karma", as such what ever MHA and Gremlins and everyone attacking IRON, wish to give IRON peace or/and ask for reps, this is up to them.

A such it would be up to those who are attacking NPO on how far they wish to take this.

You all need to understand that "Karma" is made up of many alliances and Bloc's that have come together for one reason, NPO declared war on OV, that then lead to a MDP chain of events. If IRON did not dow on RoK then IRON may not have been attacked by the alliances they are.

so Karma is a reaction to The Hegemony, as NPO made the first move.

keep that in mind please.

[hertugen]

If honesty was a characteristic that would be rewarded on Bob I am sure quite a few people could answer that. In your mad haste to scramble to the public stoning of the NPO you seem to have overlooked some rather obvious facts. Karma my fat Aunty.

HellAngel speaks of Gramlins style justice and if Gramlins=Karma, I would be far more comfortable, because I trust them to at least be responsible. Some of the others among you, not so much. Back stabbing scum calling other people cowards doesn't sit well with me. Most of you need to take a long hard look at yourselves and judge yourself by the very standards you seek to set.

Margrave, tactically you may well be right. Crushing the NPO makes perfect sense, beat them within an inch of their life, give them terms that beat the ones Polaris received, berate them, mock them, ridicule them... then I and many others will be coming for you, because you will be what you detested. Kicking any alliance repeatedly in the head is not good form and never will be. The thing that defines polite and honorable society (that which Karma preaches by their default official position) is how we treat everyone, not just those who it is convenient to do so.

Punishment, revenge, judgment, it all seems to make so much sense. I can tell you I didn't need a beating to learn a lesson and I certainly did not need to fund the tech spent in this war either. So now will the NPO fund the next war against whoever you cut from the herd next?

People have asked me repeatedly why I do not support Karma's cause, you need look no further than Margrave as a shining example of why. Having lived through the beating Polaris received, the crippling reps and the removal of well-loved and long serving members of our alliance, I was reminded of what I do not want to happen to others ever again. The funny thing is I didn't need the lesson, I was in an alliance that disbanded rather than accept the Hegemony and their stupid terms. Until Karma, as a whole, shows they intend to treat their prey with fairness and real justice then I will continue not to support the rubbish that gets posted here.

Whilst I have the greatest respect for both LiquidMercury and Archon, I am genuinely afraid that Pandora is out of the box and that not even their responsibility and good sense will control people seeking revenge for every slight over the past 3 years. I am encouraged by the terms issued and accepted so far, but we all know that Old Guard were largely protected by their Bloc mates on Karma's side. Lets see what happens when Valhalla, TPF, IRON and the NPO are offered terms. That is the chance to show I was wrong and I will gladly admit it if and when I am.

Here is AlmightyGrub's pro-tip. Let bygones be truly bygones when this war is over. Wipe the slate clean and start again, you will find it as refreshing as I did. It is funny when you talk to the other side, after the dust has settled, you find that most of the time you aren't really all that different.

If it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees, perhaps not forcing people to live on their knees will breed a different world?

I love you SOOOO much!

[Alterego]

I would rather die by being too merciful to my enemies than live in stagnation like we have seen in the age of the Continuum.

Opinions like this are in the minority, the mob are gaining more control by the day.

[Tromp]

Opinions like this are in the minority, the mob are gaining more control by the day.

I think the bold part says it all.

[jer]

NPO will get its punishment, as for those who alligned themselves with them: They honored their treaties. I strongly hope they will reconsider their ties, but it is in their right as an independent alliance to decide for themselves.

What use is getting rid of the iron fist and then replacing it with ours? If we dont set a precedent, no one will and this cyberverse will continue to be the rotten place it has been for a long time. You can not convince people of beliefs by force, but only by making them doubt their own.

You think the rest of 1V and Q should get white peace? This seems to be what you are suggesting should happen, it will be interesting to see if you stand by your opinion over the coming weeks.

Watch them try and become apart of the movement, HellAngel. They'll put on the clothes and look just like everyone else, they'll "convert" to the side of the angels, and when the time comes to stand against them again we won't be able to because they will be among us.

Indeedy. The alliances of 1V and Q sucked off NPO's power-teet just so they could bully their way around the cyberverse with no prospect of recourse. By letting these alliances go free we're being set-up for a repeat of the last few years, which I'm sure would suit some of the parties involved - the new power structure has some ready-made lackeys who are grateful for mercy and at their service, and the lackeys are free to carry on the bullying of smaller alliances whilst riding the coattails of the Big Cheeses, just as they did before.

[Alterego]

You think the rest of 1V and Q should get white peace? This seems to be what you are suggesting should happen, it will be interesting to see if you stand by your opinion over the coming weeks.

Indeedy. The alliances of 1V and Q sucked off NPO's power-teet just so they could bully their way around the cyberverse with no prospect of recourse. By letting these alliances go free we're being set-up for a repeat of the last few years, which I'm sure would suit some of the parties involved - the new power structure has some ready-made lackeys who are grateful for mercy and at their service, and the lackeys are free to carry on the bullying of smaller alliances whilst riding the coattails of the Big Cheeses, just as they did before.

Does this mean you are going after alliances that were in Q only a few weeks ago, if not then why?

Q for 17 months = Q for 18 months unless the previous 17 months have all been good and the last one filled with extraordinary amounts of evil.

[Haflinger]

NPO will get its punishment, as for those who alligned themselves with them: They honored their treaties. I strongly hope they will reconsider their ties, but it is in their right as an independent alliance to decide for themselves.

Ah, the good old NPO is responsible for every abuse in the past few years and their allies never did anything bad argument. Didn't expect this one coming from you.

[ChairmanHal]

If the intent of this "revenge" argument is that scouring and crucifying NPO and all the members of Q will make the world a better place, I'll gently remind the OP that this has been tried in the past and it didn't prevent abuse or future conflict.

Indeed if there has been one constant since I arrive on Planet Bob in Feb. 2007 it has been that once a year the great powers and the small ones assemble for a great war, that relative peace follows for a short time, then new conflicts and new charges of abuse occur.

What has not been tried on any large scale since 2006 is white peace and even then it was very early on in the history of Planet Bob.

No, you do not make a case for blood. There is a case however for at least trying lesser terms at least once more.

[Link Gaetz]

If honesty was a characteristic that would be rewarded on Bob I am sure quite a few people could answer that. In your mad haste to scramble to the public stoning of the NPO you seem to have overlooked some rather obvious facts. Karma my fat Aunty.

HellAngel speaks of Gramlins style justice and if Gramlins=Karma, I would be far more comfortable, because I trust them to at least be responsible. Some of the others among you, not so much. Back stabbing scum calling other people cowards doesn't sit well with me. Most of you need to take a long hard look at yourselves and judge yourself by the very standards you seek to set.

Margrave, tactically you may well be right. Crushing the NPO makes perfect sense, beat them within an inch of their life, give them terms that beat the ones Polaris received, berate them, mock them, ridicule them... then I and many others will be coming for you, because you will be what you detested. Kicking any alliance repeatedly in the head is not good form and never will be. The thing that defines polite and honorable society (that which Karma preaches by their default official position) is how we treat everyone, not just those who it is convenient to do so.

Punishment, revenge, judgment, it all seems to make so much sense. I can tell you I didn't need a beating to learn a lesson and I certainly did not need to fund the tech spent in this war either. So now will the NPO fund the next war against whoever you cut from the herd next?

People have asked me repeatedly why I do not support Karma's cause, you need look no further than Margrave as a shining example of why. Having lived through the beating Polaris received, the crippling reps and the removal of well-loved and long serving members of our alliance, I was reminded of what I do not want to happen to others ever again. The funny thing is I didn't need the lesson, I was in an alliance that disbanded rather than accept the Hegemony and their stupid terms. Until Karma, as a whole, shows they intend to treat their prey with fairness and real justice then I will continue not to support the rubbish that gets posted here.

Whilst I have the greatest respect for both LiquidMercury and Archon, I am genuinely afraid that Pandora is out of the box and that not even their responsibility and good sense will control people seeking revenge for every slight over the past 3 years. I am encouraged by the terms issued and accepted so far, but we all know that Old Guard were largely protected by their Bloc mates on Karma's side. Lets see what happens when Valhalla, TPF, IRON and the NPO are offered terms. That is the chance to show I was wrong and I will gladly admit it if and when I am.

Here is AlmightyGrub's pro-tip. Let bygones be truly bygones when this war is over. Wipe the slate clean and start again, you will find it as refreshing as I did. It is funny when you talk to the other side, after the dust has settled, you find that most of the time you aren't really all that different.

If it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees, perhaps not forcing people to live on their knees will breed a different world?

I don't post much in the forums, but I have to say, every time I read one of your postings, I'm impressed.

[Isaac Wolfe]

If Pacifica and their lackies are given white peace, we know damn well what the next move will be for them. They will kick down our door, ransack our homes, and force us to disband.

All of you squeak and squabble of "turning the other cheek" and "being lenient," but when ever has Pacifica and their allies been lenient? No one has ever been given a second chance.

In short, they will take advantage of Karma's inevitable kindness and destroy us all.

Why should we allow that?

[King Chill I]

HellAngel and Grub pretty much said what i think but for all those crying its GWI all over and they need their punishment here is a prediction that will become an "I told you so" in 6 months.

Impose harsh terms and beatdowns on those fighting for their treaties and you will be in the same position next war.

With this war Karma had the chance of changing the culture, behavior and structure of CN. Instead of taking the NPO route of beat and cripple Karma could simply give white peace to those honoring treaties and prevented planting the seed of new grudges that will only redraw the lines. By being generous you take away your enemy's reasons to seek a fight with you next time around.

Its not GWI and anyone who says that is not looking at the wider picture. GWI changed nothing. All GWI did was spit in the face of a bruised but not destroyed NPO with an empty apology and gave it a reason to hate and seek revenge.

Yes some of the alliances involved were to a degree complicit in what the previous hegemony did but if we cant get away from the desire for revenge we will never get away from the system that created that hegemony in the first place and are doomed to repeat the cycle.

What white peace does now is break the cycle that creates grudges (which also incidentally works in NPO's favor). White peace changes the culture of CN wars by saying that even though we fought we understand why you did it and hold no grudge. White peace for most involved represents a radical shift in CN behavior which is the only way we have of getting away from a system where reps brought alliances to near death.

If you change the culture anyone who tries to use the old methods will stand out like a sore thumb and give everyone a chance to see who the real enemy is. In a new environment it will be much harder for allies of a bloodthirsty alliance to stand and watch as it imposes crippling terms on those it destroyed. The complicity of the last couple of years will be much harder to live with.

Ive been called naive or stupid or whatever else those crying for blood like Margrave want to say. Fact is you can make sure you repeat the same cycle over and over again with some on top as opposed to the bottom or you can take a risk and try to create a new system where the wrongs of the past will not be tolerated.

Edited May 5, 2009 by King Chill I

[Cataduanes]

All of you squeak and squabble of "turning the other cheek" and "being lenient," but when ever has Pacifica and their allies been lenient? No one has ever been given a second chance.

In short, they will take advantage of Karma's inevitable kindness and destroy us all.

Why should we allow that?

I have to admit this post makes alot of sense, especially for those of us who have been on the receiving end of Pacifica's and 1V's definition of 'mercy'.

[kingzog]

In two years, when we find ourselves subjected to the latest 5,000-word atrocity by Vladimir on "How the 'Karma War' Was Really a Victory for the Order" just remember that Margrave tried to stop it.

[HellAngel]

Ah, the good old NPO is responsible for every abuse in the past few years and their allies never did anything bad argument. Didn't expect this one coming from you.

Are you serious? Where did i say that?

[Haflinger]

Are you serious? Where did i say that?

Your statement is that the NPO will get their punishment, while their other treaty partners will not be punished. What other logical inference can be drawn?

[HeinousOne]

You can send your derisive comments to TOP's mail box, if you like. OG is still a member of the Citadel and is still our ally.

So is it true then that OG was allowed to honor their treaty but only for a very short time? Is the leash in a different hand now?

[Sovyet Gelibolu]

Personally, and I speak neither for Karma nor for my alliance, I'd like to see reps for a select few alliances (naming names in public is bad, m'kay?) not to exceed one of two limits, whichever is lower. The first limit would be the damage done to the victorious alliances by the defeated alliances during the course of this war. The second limit would be the amount that the defeated alliance can reasonably be expected to pay in thirty days, that is, three aid cycles. The point of reps should not be to punish the defeated alliance overmuch, which is why the second limit exists, but to repair the damage it did to the victors over the course of the war. I think the whole "any reps are automatically vengeful and Hegemonistic while white peace is the only possible paradigm-changing action" mindset is, let's say, foolish and idealistic.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Sovyet Gelibolu