Ready for the truth?

[Uralica]

TOOL...even tho I support NSO in this conflict (assuming what Ivan said was true: That he asked the leaders of TOOL if CDC was under their protection and TOOL responded "no"), I am VERY disappointed in the way you handled this. Either:

1. Grow a Pair

or

2. Don't make promises you're not willing to keep

TOOL has seen the evidence and it is a solid CB. Also, no protectorate was officially passed, the vote was halted and along with it, the protection. TOOL is not protecting CDC.

Would you have suggested we go to war over something we saw as being dishonorable? NSO's evidence was enough for us. We DON'T make promises we don't intend to keep, within reason. If you had a de facto temporary protectorate pending a vote, and they did something stupid, would you keep them?

Oh, and:

If hilltopper was spying on the NSO, proof should have been offered and he would've been kicked immediately from CDC. NSO's concerns were brought to TOOL and Graham informed me. At the end of our conversation, as you can see above, Graham stated that he would ask for evidence of the allegation.

Evidence was given, to TOOL.

[karthikking]

Yes but no evidence whatsoever was given to the concerned party.

[WarriorConcept]

Yes but no evidence whatsoever was given to the concerned party.

And spoil the surprise?

[Spock]

Okay.

Warning, because it seems to need it: no usage of the word "troll", stop the borderline flamebait, and keep it cooler, etc. etc.

After this, there won't be verbals.

[Gabe Logan]

Yes but no evidence whatsoever was given to the concerned party.

Thank you.

And to the members of TOOL....I told Graham from the onset that if this was getting to be too much drama, then I would respect any decision you made, for or against the protectorate. I was told we would have protection while this was sorted out. TOOL was given this "evidence" and it was not brought to me, but instead they sat idly by and allowed this to happen. It was a poor show on the part of TOOL and NSO. One I had faith in. The other I did not.

[RandomInterrupt]

Yes but no evidence whatsoever was given to the concerned party.

Why would we need to provide evidence of spying to the spy? That doesn't make any sense at all. If Gabe wants to know why he is being attacked, a chat with his own government members should provide him with all he needs to know.

[Neo Uruk]

It's so circular it's scary.

EDIT: Forgot to say "no u"

Edited April 11, 2009 by Rey the Great

[iamthey]

Thank you.

And to the members of TOOL....I told Graham from the onset that if this was getting to be too much drama, then I would respect any decision you made, for or against the protectorate. I was told we would have protection while this was sorted out. TOOL was given this "evidence" and it was not brought to me, but instead they sat idly by and allowed this to happen. It was a poor show on the part of TOOL and NSO. One I had faith in. The other I did not.

To be honest I think you all are being a little irrational. Lets just assume tool should have come to your aid, the ultimately result would have been TOOL and NSO going to war which would have meant treaties being called in and a much larger war which very well could have become nuclear. Further the war itself would have been an indefinite event. The total damage caused to all parties would have been far more than will be caused by this seven day conventional skirmish. TOOL only should have done something under two conditions A they have an actual protectorate not just some vague verbal agreement, and B there was undisputed evidence which stood contrary to whatever evidence was provided by Ivan. If neither of those were the case then it makes absolute not sense to cause so much destruction (or risk it for that matter) on something that is uncertain. And ultimately I think the point of the CB itself is a moot point, I mean legally I believe the NSO members as well as many other alliances could have just attacked you all as a raid; there was no injustice done its just a game... In seven days this will be over everyone will be peaced out and you all can move on; no one else has a legal CB so all of this is just pointless whining which will accomplish nothing.

Edited April 11, 2009 by iamthey

[Gabe Logan]

All I would have liked from TOOL is for them to bring the "evidence" NSO was presenting to me if NSO wasn't going to do it. This could have concluded peacefully, but since the only ones hurt here are a small alliance no one cares about, then no harm no foul. I get it.

Even I agree this is getting old. Have fun, NSO.

[heggo]

Gabe, you act like it was some small rogue portion of your alliance that was spying on us. I believe, however, that the record will show that a whole 20% of your alliance was spying on us. That's a pretty substantial chunk of CDC...

[Sargun II]

Gabe, you act like it was some small rogue portion of your alliance that was spying on us. I believe, however, that the record will show that a whole 20% of your alliance was spying on us. That's a pretty substantial chunk of CDC...

This is facepalm-worthy.

[Moridin]

Gabe, you act like it was some small rogue portion of your alliance that was spying on us. I believe, however, that the record will show that a whole 20% of your alliance was spying on us. That's a pretty substantial chunk of CDC...

I hope you're being deliberately obtuse, because one member is the smallest finite chunk of an alliance possible. I have no real opinion on the actual issue here but misleading statistics really bother me.

[Mergerberger II]

What I don't understand is CDC's movement here. Have you guys actually been here for more than two months? What, exactly, did you expect to gain from posting this, I wonder. Ivan and the NSO were rather merciful, I thought, when stating that this would be a very limited war and only be one cycle of war unless you did something to continue it, ending in white peace. You are outmatched and outmaneuvered and out-politicked. I do hope that you realized when you posted this that the only thing that it could bring was longer war and more destruction of CDC.

I will assume that you don't want to be Vox or Prussia or FAN or OcUK, so why did you not just sit down and accept your seven days of war instead of prolonging it with this post? Ivan is clearly being very merciful here, not asking anything from you and the fact that it is a limited war, so why do you drag it out?

[William Blake]

All I would have liked from TOOL is for them to bring the "evidence" NSO was presenting to me if NSO wasn't going to do it. This could have concluded peacefully, but since the only ones hurt here are a small alliance no one cares about, then no harm no foul. I get it.

Even I agree this is getting old. Have fun, NSO.

Just to clear up this remaining confusion. It's NSO's evidence, not ours. If you still haven't asked Ivan or Random or someone for the evidence you should do that. Or are you just pretending to not know what it was?

TOOL has no say in how NSO runs their alliance and the last time we talked to you, you knew everything that we knew, we didn't hold back any vital information that would have helped you here. I went and asked NSO for the info this morning just like anyone in our position would have. They provided a clear CB, end of story.

[thedrooling]

I just can't handle it.

I can't handle the truth!

[Mogar]

I just can't handle it.

I can't handle the truth!

I was actually about to post a response similar to this.

[animea90]

While I am normally a fan of NSO, there constant refusal to give any evidence of the spy to the public worries me. Normally when alliances declare war, they post the evidence in the CB to prove there reason(or at least provide evidence upon request). While they may have shown it to TOOL, why hide it from everyone else?

The only reason I can think of that Ivan is so strongly withhold evidence from the public is that the evidence would reflect badly on NSO. Meaning it is either not very strong or was gotten through unsavory means(there own spies being one possibility).

[brentbee]

While I am normally a fan of NSO, there constant refusal to give any evidence of the spy to the public worries me. Normally when alliances declare war, they post the evidence in the CB to prove there reason(or at least provide evidence upon request). While they may have shown it to TOOL, why hide it from everyone else?

The only reason I can think of that Ivan is so strongly withhold evidence from the public is that the evidence would reflect badly on NSO. Meaning it is either not very strong or was gotten through unsavory means(there own spies being one possibility).

you sir, should learn to read an entire thread and from hence they are spawned before posting.

[ConeBone69]

While I am normally a fan of NSO, there constant refusal to give any evidence of the spy to the public worries me. Normally when alliances declare war, they post the evidence in the CB to prove there reason(or at least provide evidence upon request). While they may have shown it to TOOL, why hide it from everyone else?

The only reason I can think of that Ivan is so strongly withhold evidence from the public is that the evidence would reflect badly on NSO. Meaning it is either not very strong or was gotten through unsavory means(there own spies being one possibility).

You're wrong on all accounts, and it's bad to speculate on matters you have no idea on. We don't feel the need to show the world the evidence because it's really none of their damned business. We don't do things just because the masses desire it, we act on our own accords and do things the way we want to do them. We don't care what you, or any other party that didn't get to see the evidence think.

Also, if it did reflect poorly on us don't you think that those that did see it in the other thread would have made a fuss about it?

[Gabe Logan]

I saw the screenshot posted before it was removed. I've never said it wasn't possible that hilltopper is the one who took it and posted it. Granted, ips can't be posted and I did not seek further verification that they were a match. The war had already been declared and there seemed to be evidence enough to me that I banned hilltopper from our forums. This is the same action I would have taken had it been presented before hand to me and there would be no cause to declare on CDC. That's my only issue here. But what's done is done.

[animea90]

You're wrong on all accounts, and it's bad to speculate on matters you have no idea on. We don't feel the need to show the world the evidence because it's really none of their damned business. We don't do things just because the masses desire it, we act on our own accords and do things the way we want to do them. We don't care what you, or any other party that didn't get to see the evidence think.

Also, if it did reflect poorly on us don't you think that those that did see it in the other thread would have made a fuss about it?

If its "none of their damned business" then why even mention that you saw a spy. If you really don't care what others think then there would be no reason to even post your reason for declaring on them. The fact that Ivan took the time to tell everyone there is a spy means he cares.

Now, I agree I am speculating because I do not have any hard evidence. I just find it odd that Ivan is publically making a claim but refusing to publicly provide a warrant for that claim.

[Electron Sponge]

While I am normally a fan of NSO, there constant refusal to give any evidence of the spy to the public worries me. Normally when alliances declare war, they post the evidence in the CB to prove there reason(or at least provide evidence upon request). While they may have shown it to TOOL, why hide it from everyone else?

The only reason I can think of that Ivan is so strongly withhold evidence from the public is that the evidence would reflect badly on NSO. Meaning it is either not very strong or was gotten through unsavory means(there own spies being one possibility).

I would respectfully disagree with your stance that there is any sort of imperative to show casus belli here. Should allies request clarification, of course, show it. The New Sith Order has no duty to the general public to clue them in, however.

Now, I agree I am speculating because I do not have any hard evidence. I just find it odd that Ivan is publically making a claim but refusing to publicly provide a warrant for that claim.

That's actually par for the course with Ivan. He speaks the truth and therefore does not feel he needs to provide all the backing documentation. I personally will believe anything he posts because he's not prone to lying. Edited April 12, 2009 by Electron Sponge

[ChairmanHal]

To be honest I think you all are being a little irrational. Lets just assume tool should have come to your aid, the ultimately result would have been TOOL and NSO going to war which would have meant treaties being called in and a much larger war which very well could have become nuclear. Further the war itself would have been an indefinite event. The total damage caused to all parties would have been far more than will be caused by this seven day conventional skirmish. TOOL only should have done something under two conditions A they have an actual protectorate not just some vague verbal agreement, and B there was undisputed evidence which stood contrary to whatever evidence was provided by Ivan. If neither of those were the case then it makes absolute not sense to cause so much destruction (or risk it for that matter) on something that is uncertain. And ultimately I think the point of the CB itself is a moot point, I mean legally I believe the NSO members as well as many other alliances could have just attacked you all as a raid; there was no injustice done its just a game... In seven days this will be over everyone will be peaced out and you all can move on; no one else has a legal CB so all of this is just pointless whining which will accomplish nothing.

Justice should be set aside because it is inconvenient or expensive or the "defendant" is too small or weak. Interesting concept...

Raids aren't announced here, they just happen. That NSO would feel the need to come to these forums and announce a DoW and give a CB (with or without evidence) means that this conflict is not a raid--it is now held to the same standard as if NSO had declared on GATO or some other much larger alliance. No proof of justification also means that the world is free to judge whether or not the CB is valid based upon whatever criteria it sees fit, including evidence from the "defendant" and pass judgment in the court of public opinion.

Ultimately, if TOOL decides to do nothing, and the circumstances and shortness of the protectorate give them a bit of an out, so be it. But there's nothing preventing some other alliance from acting against NSO and no reason why we should praise NSO for what amounts to shooting deserters.

[thedrooling]

People, it is clear you can not.

[WarriorConcept]

Ultimately, if TOOL decides to do nothing, and the circumstances and shortness of the protectorate give them a bit of an out, so be it. But there's nothing preventing some other alliance from acting against NSO and no reason why we should praise NSO for what amounts to shooting deserters.

Hal, you're definitely not ready for the truth.