TWiP and Tattler Present: Reyne Mordigan's Greatest Hits

[Nizzle]

not that far-fetched in all honesty. At that point, little was known about the Pacifica-Polaris relations. Thus, had Pacifica decided to side with Polaris, then TOP would have found itself isolated except for a few hardcore allies.

Polaris got attacked because Pacifica finally dropped the OoO. Yes, the Coalition was foaming at the mouth to attack Polaris, had the OoO been kept, would the Coalition have attacked? well, we would have had to see a split in Q, dropping of more treaties, and so on and so forth. that would have held up the attack for at least another month or so.

but regardless, TOP had no clue what was going on in private between Polaris/Pacifica.

so yes, they had every right to expect an attack. to state otherwise is ridiculous. In hindsight, yes it is fairly far-fetched, but for that time and with what was known, it was not that far-fetched.

come on Nizzle, you can do better than that.

Well, I and a few others disagreed at the time and I still maintain that opinion.

While I could understand the source of some paranoia concerning NpO's intentions, I still don't buy that they were a threat. Look at the coalition we amassed. There was no way all of those alliances were dead silent prior to the war concerning their desires to attack NpO, and as I recall NPO was acting the part of mediator trying to diffuse a potential war. As I recall, and I believe this was said by leadership of an alliance, we were waiting merely on "NPO's blessing". That was it. There was no impending attack from NpO and a huge group of other alliances, as Citadel was far too firmly entrenched via Q and independent treaties.

Add to all of that this fact: The "evidence" against NpO was held so closely to the chest by some of this "Coalition" that some government members hadn't even seen it, but merely heard it second hand. I think the "evidence" may have been clarified more after the war was in it's down turn. I do believe the CB for Citadel alliances was "They were plotting to destroy us". I remember there was concern over them using GGA as the flash point at one time, as the UJA was under discussion or had been very recently announced. The whole summer was full of slightly ridiculous conspiracy theories about Citadel being destroyed, yet everyone seemed to have forgotten the strong ties with Q and other alliances. The day TOP is attacked by NPO, or NPO allows an attack on TOP, is the day the server will turn off. I think that's an obvious point for anyone to see, past or present. If you don't feel comfortable saying it about TOP, then most definitely OG. I also recall that at several points in the heated discussions concerning the war, surrender terms, etc that alliance leaders stated it was merely because "NpO had it coming to them. No one treats us like that." There was an oft stated opinion that we had partaken in the kind of war which we frowned on others for doing.

We're both arguing history here. That won't end in any good result, and this most certainly isn't the avenue to do it in. I should have thrown this disclaimer in here earlier, but everything I'm saying comes from my past in Citadel alliances and is most definitely not reflective of the opinions Vanguard holds concerning Citadel, the NpO War, or anything else I've said. It's just crazy old Napoleon.

[Penguin]

I think you misunderstood me. We both agree that the Reyne comments are not a cause (or whatever word you want to use) for war. Screen shots regarding one event were not the only reason NpO was attacked. I don't know the whole reasons for the attacks either (as you might remember) but I do know enough to question RI interpretation that these two things are similar.

I cannot argue against that which neither of us know so it seems I've been bested and shall take my leave. Do note that I understand war isn't supposed to be neat and tidy. I'm perfectly satisfied with the "perceived threat - preemptive strike" argument but people continue to either mix up the reasons why we were hated with the stated cause for war or else they tell me that there are other super secret reasons. Maybe someone more informed than myself would be kind enough to PM me?

[Bob Janova]

Ok I thought I'd done this already but the thread seems to be talking rubbish about the Polar war once more so let me set a few things straight:

• The screenshot of Polar boards came after we had decided to go to war and was not part of the CB. I disapprove of spying and had I been in government at the time I would have informed Polar of their leak, but as I wasn't I didn't even see the thing until two weeks later.
  
• The reason for war was simple and clear: we believed that Polaris was aiming to isolate Citadel and destroy us, and we needed to stop that happening. The fact that the entire government of Polaris was making public posts that were aggressive in nature was an indicator of how they were thinking and therefore influenced our opinion, but the CB was not simply that you were trash-talking us.
  
• In retrospect I personally believe we overestimated the threat (in particular the strength of the OoO) and therefore the danger was not strong enough to justify a war. But at the time it seemed so and I stand by our decision at the time.
  
• Several Citadel alliances support freedom of expression both internally and externally, from ourselves, our allies and non-allies. There is not a double standard here whereby Reyne can express herself and Polars cannot. Expressing a hostile or disagreeable opinion is fine.
  
• Because Reyne's quotes have been carefully selected for maximum 'conflict', you get a seriously overstated impression of how much arguing goes on. Continual hostility in words can leave the scene set for a major rift, and that is what we saw from Polars. It is not what we see from Reyne (or anybody else at present).
  

If you do not think that our justification of our actions in the Polar war is sufficient, then, well, sorry. Even without Citadel you'd have been dead though, as it happens.

[Starfox101]

Great work here. I am very pleased, and found this one to be especially funny.

[Ski11585]

Nevermind.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Ski11585

[The AUT]

Hypocrisy: That my friend is the real "Slayer special".

I've looked at your AA and I must say, you must be the last to talk about hypocrisy having witnessed it myself.

Either way this thread is getting rather confusing and going off on tangents. I will say this though, Citadel's continued unity and their resolute bloc is quite impressive.

Edited March 25, 2009 by The AUT

[crazy canuck]

never mind as well

Edited March 25, 2009 by crazy canuck

[Slayer99]

Well then you could say Reyne assasinated her own character by being so rude and unpleasant...

Uh, no...as has been pointed out: old and out-of-context are nowhere near what Sponge has done to planet bob.

I still find it interesting that the Sponge defenders won't refute my claims, but would prefer to go ad hominem on me or some other logical fallacy.

[twodivine]

So NpO/BLEU never discussed attacking Gremlins?

NO discussion to attack Gremlins offensively had ever taken place. The only discussion was the possible defensive roll to assist GGA if Gremlins and GGA should actually go to war over UJA and the green sphere. Once that situation was resolved then everyone went on their merry way to focus on other economic aspects of the block.

[Quercus]

I agree with Penguin and Bob Janova regarding warfare in this game. When the situation presents itself strategically, you owe it to your membership to move to reduce or remove threats. You shouldn't need reasons beyond that it is necessary in your eyes to preserve the continued prosperity and wellbeing of your membership. War is pretty simple in this game until all the emotions get involved. If everyone looks out for their membership, the where, when and even why of warfare becomes pretty straightforward.

As for Vox/Sponge and Company, I have to thank them for making the game so much more enjoyable. And whether I agree with Vox objectives or methods is immaterial to whether I find their presence entertaining and refreshing. It is good to see topics that are 30 pages in length because it reminds us that although the great events and times in this game may be behind us, it is not entirely dead and the possibility for a more entertaining future is still there.

[Callahan]

As enjoying as it is watching you guys relive the past, the NpO line of discussion has strayed woefully off topic.

[shahenshah]

but would prefer to go ad hominem on me or some other logical fallacy.

I'd be surprised if I saw anything different.

Not aimed at you,

I certainly find the sudden change of 'tone' in a very tiny amount of very active posters very interesting. People who were at the forefront of Vox drama alongside the anarchists in their rhetoric when it was against NPO and Q, supposedly leading the moral crusade or whatever...now suddenly they find themselves in uncomfortable position indirectly.

Could'nt resist the 'I told you' post xD

Ty and HF.

Edited March 25, 2009 by shahenshah

[Sun WuKong]

Heh, I took me an hour to catch up to the thread end again. I would like to post a couple of clarifications/corrections. Pardon me if they were already done and I missed it in the mad scramble to read this behemoth...

I'm not really sure you can claim that about an alliance that boots people who may disagree...

Given the amount of syntax-mangling and language-misuse that occurs on Planet Bob, I'm surprised that people have treated this use of 'purge' by Reyne as an established fact without even bothering to find out if it's true. Reyne has already spoken to this, but I will reiterate: The Old Guard has never had a purge, despite her misuse of the word. Back in its earliest days (before my time), OG had a split where several members left to, among other things, form Genesis. We have had the occasional member leave because the group consensus moved in a way they strongly disagreed with. But we have never booted any member for disagreement with OG policy. That's not the way we roll.

You know I really wanted to join OG but I guess that idea aint ever happenin...

Oh well.

Well, being an invite-only alliance, the point is moot. But, talk to me - maybe I'll set up an interview. Stranger things have happened.

and nintenderek, who the hell are you telling people what to do?

and why would she care about what you're saying anyways?

if you don't like OG... don't get treaties with them

This may be the crux of the issue. We have actually broached the idea of inviting Vox to join us both in tC and Citadel, and received only derisive laughter in return. I guess no one likes to be rejected from the cool kids lunch table...

(I know that the FCC didn't take part in that, which is why I still respect them so much, but the rest of the Citadel certainly did). I guess I'll answer it myself. The Citadel attacked Polar because of old grudges against a former leader and because of information spied from Polar's forum that proved that we thought TOP were kind of jerks. That is the reason Polar was attacked by guys like TOP, Gremlins, and yes OG. So to continue to use defenses like "she was just expressing her opinion in a private forum" is just more hypocrisy.

A clarification here. Citadel did not attack Polaris. Neither FCC nor Old Guard took part. The other three alliances acted as part of the Coalition. That being the case, I trust you will restore Old Guard to the same level of esteem you hold FCC in?

namaste,

SWK

Edited March 25, 2009 by Sun WuKong

[Magnum T. Gundraw]

Reyne tells no lies.

[Schattenmann]

Actually, I do believe you've misinterpreted my post. Any time I read any Vox material, much like the material of any alliance, I consider matters from every point of view that I can. How does that translate to me not being able to understand anything that ANY VP writes? I've never attributed what a non VP member said to VP.

You said we were asking Reyne to apologize an hour ago.

I've never told a single joke about VP. I've never stated that I know better. I never submitted any generalized assumptions about VP as fact, in fact I believe I stated they were my own assumptions from what I've seen.

Not all infected display all symptoms.

Also, I never said Vox was calling for an apology. I said that if I was wrong about any assumptions I made, I apologize. I get to apologize about any wrong assumptions I may make regardless of whether you want an apology or not.

Yes, you did:

By saying that Reyne MUST apologize for stating her opinions to her close allies in the very home of their bloc, it seems to me that Vox is acting in direct opposition to their goals (as I see them).

All you did was attack my post, for no other reason than that I'm not a Vox Populi member, without actually addressing my point.

And now I point up to where you said you don't use generalized asumptions about us.

I corrected you on your post because it was off-base. Now I'm correctin gyou again because you're back-pedaling.

What I was asking in my post is this.

That is not correct. In fact, there is no ? punctuation mark present in the post I replied to at all. You asked no questions, you presented your interpretation of Vox's goals, and how this broadcast does not dovetail with your interpretation based on your belief that it was Vox askign for apologies.

But, now that you have asked a question:

How are Reyne's comments and Citadel's support of her character, any different than what Vox members do? Or any member of any alliance does when stating an opinion? Why should only Vox/their supports/people that aren't in NPO or Q, get to speak their minds without consequence while the rest of us don't? Why should Reyne have to apologize for having an opinion, when others don't?

Oh, crumbs, you're still on about calls for an apology that aren't coming from Vox. I'm not qualified to answer your question as asked because it does not apply to me.

However, what I can say is what I've already said: I find Reyne Mordigan's calls for allies to expel members to suit her foreign affairs goals dispicable, I find the way she talks to allies dispicable (not that she has an opinion), and I think they way she talks about alliances as evil without any base to be hilariously delicious.

Let me make this clear for everyone: Expressing an opinion is different than flying into a rage. Reyne Mordigan seems capable of doing the one for only a very few seconds before jumping straight to the other. That's why this is "Reyne Mordigan's Greatest Hits", not "Bob Janova's Greatest Hits".

[Kryievla]

I remember you. I remember getting peace was nice and easy. You were great. Reyne on the other hand was not very easy. So greatest? No. Hardest working? Sure because she made reps confusing and long and drawn out

It is kind of you to remember me, and I am glad I was able to help you. I remember you as well. It is also good to see you prospering, that really warms my heart

However, I can't take sole credit here, by any means. The reason it was so quick and easy for me, is because of the hard work from others, from before I even arrived. And it was Reyne who showed me how to make things move quickly. She used her past experience of what worked and what did not, to teach me how to cut the red tape and make things happen fast. True story

edit: can't speel, yeesh

Edited March 25, 2009 by Kryievla

[Electron Sponge]

"Bob Janova's Greatest Hits"

Probably sounds a bit like nerdy Barry White. 'Can't get enough of your tech, baaabe'

[Schattenmann]

Probably sounds a bit like nerdy Barry White. 'Can't get enough of your tech, baaabe'

"Here, here, rapscallion! I will notstand for this jackanapery! Join me at the Durham and we will discuss this over Earl Gray. Cheerio!"

Maybe TOP, Umbrella, and Gre have more people that want to join for a reason. Nah.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Schattenmann

[Delta1212]

Uh, no...as has been pointed out: old and out-of-context are nowhere near what Sponge has done to planet bob.

I still find it interesting that the Sponge defenders won't refute my claims, but would prefer to go ad hominem on me or some other logical fallacy.

Slayer, if you aren't going to give concrete reasoning instead of flinging insults around, could you stop defending Sponge? It's very tiring and I've really had enough of it.

Now, see how utterly nonsensical and stupid that sounded?

[Heracles the Great]

Probably sounds a bit like nerdy Barry White. 'Can't get enough of your tech, baaabe'

I won't lie - I lol'd

[Bob Janova]

"Bob Janova's Greatest Hits"

I am intrigued by this concept and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Electron Sponge]

Slayer, if you aren't going to give concrete reasoning instead of flinging insults around, could you stop defending Sponge? It's very tiring and I've really had enough of it.

Now, see how utterly nonsensical and stupid that sounded?

I do find it funny that Slayer is using ad hominems against me but decries their use against him... and all the while calling me a hypocrite. Delicious.

ooc: I wish people would stop quoting Slayer99, my forum experience has much improved since I put him on ignore a few weeks ago. I recommend everyone else do the same. You'll see a difference too.

[Schattenmann]

I am intrigued by this concept and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

See OP for a guide on how to act in order to precipitate such an action. I doubt if you can pull it off.

[Pazuzu]

Reyne tells no lies.

If you wouldn't cuddle this you are a monster. End of discussion.

[Ejayrazz]

So..Random..We're not 'elite' anymore merely because Reyne wishes to release her opinion about certain subjects in private forums? Ok.

Sounds good.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Ejayrazz