Quercus

For a topic entitled "Concerning wars and their causes", you didn't shed a whole lot of light on the larger question of why wars are fought. I can understand the need to rationalize your position, and because of my long friendship with Almighty Grub and Polaris, I trust the simple explanation that was given before this all spun out of control. But your post is really just an explanation- which is only one step removed from an excuse. Trust me, you don't need an excuse, and your desire to rationalize the actions of your alliance is an internal one that never needed to be voiced here. If you believe in what you are doing, then why should you ever waste the energy to convince others? They are equally sure in their beliefs and any words by you are not going to change more than a few peoples minds. In this little slice of virtual reality, wars are fought because it is the most interesting aspect of our existence. Outside of conflict, we have nothing worthwhile to do save prepare for the next conflict. We build nations, create and organize alliances, recruit and train new members, enter into diplomatic entanglements all for the purpose of fighting wars. War defines our existence here. And as such, the claims of [i]casus belli[/i] over the history of this game have been secondary to the need for members of this community to find something worthwhile to do. This forum and those who came before it have never been anything but a tool of propaganda to rationalize the wars that are necessary to keep active and engaged members. Your addition of this topic to it is perfectly in alignment with 99% of the volumes of material that have been written since the beginning of 2006. Everything that you have said, has been said before hundreds of times, so the only value of this topic is in making you feel better (which I truly hope that it did). For all the talk of reluctant warriors, even the OBR (an alliance that handles boredom far better than any I have encountered in my 4 years in this community) fights because they are looking for something worthwhile to do. Sure, there is a defense pact with a latin name to point at, but even so, Greenland is an ally in name only- the OBR are too stuck up to mix with Greenland regularly, and Greenland is too into lulz moments and having fun to tolerate the restrained company of the OBR. The defense of Greenland is more about making a statement about who the OBR wants to be seen as (a trustworthy and competent ally). They are no different than the rest who are just doing there best to find meaning in a rather shallow existence, each of us do it in slightly different ways, but all roads lead to conflict and it is conflict that defines us. So to wind down this meandering diatribe, craft explanations if you must, write propaganda if it makes you happy, but recognize that if you are looking for deeper meaning, you will not find it here. This is a place to roleplay and waste your time, it has as little real value as idling away four years of your life in an IRC channel. War is an inherent part of CN, and because it is the largest (in terms of game code and in terms of community effort)and most interesting part, even the most dedicated nation builder will eventually tire of buying infra and improvement swapping. None of us need excuses to have fun in what is supposed to be a game for entertainment. Please recognize that, because when you do, you will find that you can enjoy a war without painting the other side in some diabolical light. There are no good guys or bad guys here, just bored people.

The popcorn is appropriate in this case, because at the moment you are little better than a vulture circling overhead in search of carrion. I hate to disappoint you, but there is no meal here and this topic can barely be called entertainment. You haven't received an official response because this really doesn't have anything to do with the current Order of the Black Rose. Your calling everyone's honor into question doesn't work either because nearly all in the Order are beyond reproach in this matter. All of the current Knights came after the Writ de Credo and it's secret "death cookie" clause. Experimentum himself will vouch that only the old Knight Admins and the Queen had access to the forum he quoted in his exposé. The rest of us have been left with a mess that is not of our own making. Regardless of what the Knight or Dame said in the past, the crux of this topic is based upon a treaty that no longer exists. The OBR decided that it couldn't be salvaged because of it's inherent flaws and canceled it with the promise that we would write a better NAP in plain language that everyone could read and understand. From there it is up to the rest of the alliances in this world to decide if the Order can be trusted as a treaty partner. The Greenland Republic seems to have no major problems with our relationship so I suspect that other alliances will be willing to seek a friendship with us and perhaps even risk a written association. All of this drama stems from a very personal conflict that the OBR is only tangential to at best. Experimentum feels compelled by his sense of honor to launch arguments against acts and deeds that he disagrees with. By the same token, Bumpy feels compelled by his sense of honor to counter those arguments and fight against the things he disagrees with. Both have been friends to each other and me in the past, yet each of us disagree with the others currently and some of us are no longer on speaking terms with the other two. The tragedy here is not that Hime Themis is Dame of the Order with a penchant for making verbose and urbane posts, nor is it that the OBR once tried to use legalistic language to perpetrate a joke for some sense of smug self satisfaction. It is that a game has managed to drive a wedge between people who were once good friends. [OOC]My respect and friendship continues to go out to both Ex and Bumpy (even if we are no longer talking). I guess that there is too much hurt done already for things to go back to the way that they were before. But I truly wish that you could at least let the past go and move forward to what will hopefully be a better future. Regards, Jim[/OOC]

Two or maybe four depending on how you look at it. NAAC, then Order of the Black Rose. But the OBR sends Knights on Quest, so I have also been fortunate enough to have been a member of the Greenland Republic and New Polar Order. I agree with Doitzel and Sponge, four seems like too many, even for two characters over three years of time.

You should know that Greenland specifically asked for peace for Vox and FAN. They had your back on this and only withdrew their request because the OBR wanted a simple armistice and not some large treaty with a ton of clauses dealing with things not directly related to the current battle. Personally, I hope for a future where Vox walks openly amongst the populace of this world and receives their due credit for creating a movement to take back this game. As for FAN, I doubt that they will be held down for much longer.

Respect to Greenland, Dark Evolution, CCC and the Old Guard. I'd say honor is satisfied on both sides, they were a very close match and had a fierce war going without us. All the OBR and Blackwater did was show up at the end and help to facilitate the armistice talks. For those that are upset about the war ending too soon. What would you have Greenland do- continue to waste resources and nations on a secondary objective in a minor theater of the conflict? Peace here is good for them, they can redirect those forces back into the main war with Pacifica. Edit- sorry to forget Avalanche- in my defense, it was a messy fight and I showed up late.

I hope that this continues for a good long time. The damage here is every bit as trivial as the damage inflicted in the war in the summer of 2006. What you have here is a pack of coyotes trying to bring down a large bear. If they stay together and work hard, they can just manage it. But if they cease to work as a unit, the bear will eventually get every last one of them. I have been here since nearly the beginning, I was there at the end of the 1st Great War and two of my brother Knights were the ones that forced the early peace on behalf of the NPO. All it takes is one or two to get tired or overly compassionate and the rest of the pack are forced to follow suit. You should also remember how the NPO repays compassion. The Legion today only exists as a subjugated appendage of Pacifica and the ODN only exists by exercising a level of moral flexibility that has made any treaty that they sign highly suspect. That leaves GATO, LUE and the NAAC- two of those are history and the other one probably should be. So if you are Karma, you are in dead space here. You either fight together until you have a decisive victory, or you die later when the most ruthless alliance to ever play this game regains their feet and begins the work of paying you back for all of this. Edit- But I don't need to tell them that. MK are the heirs of LUE and GR are the heirs of the NAAC. Both alliances have members who remember and understand all of this.

I am sorry for your disappointment, but "dragged" is too strong a word to describe our situation. We engage in this war willingly and will accept the consequences and responsibilities that come with either victory or defeat. The public's view of the Order has long been a misperception. Role playing is merely a pastime, no less than politics or war. And in the Order's case neutrality is often synonymous with apathy. It is good that we have a history of civility and the occasional well crafted announcement on these forums, but is that enough? For some perhaps, but the rest of us set higher standards for ourselves. We mean to not only watch the activity world, but to participate in it, thereby learning more about ourselves and hopefully enriching those around us. It is good that many of you are pleased to see us venture outside our walls, because this not a one time event. We mean to stay out here and to struggle mightily to be relevant in this world. Not for the pursuit of power but for the purpose of promoting positive change. If one little alliance can enter a war by publicly posting honorable rules of engagement, then perhaps larger alliances will do the same? If one little alliance can end a war with a peace that respects the victor and vanquished equally, then perhaps other alliances will do the same. If we can attempt to nuke the Old Guard into oblivion one week and then put forth an equal effort to secure a white peace for them the following week, perhaps others will do the same. I respect the realpolitik approach to diplomacy and foreign affairs in the world, but I do not believe that it is the only way, or even the best way to operate. More than anything, I see the impetus for this conflict to be the desire for a positive change in this community. What better cause could there be for our Order, or any alliance? It is my opinion that both the OBR and the rest of Bob/Digiterra are long overdue for this.

Don't forget Blackwater, they are part of the Realms forces and were assigned 5 targets as well.

Sponge having Moo over for a Barbecue.

Here is my opinion on that statement: It wasn't the lenient terms after the 1st Great War that allowed Pacifica to recover and take over Bob in under a year. It was the naivete of the leaders of the CoaLUEtion alliances. If we had fought Pacifica to near ZI, it would have done very little but set the timetable back a bit. They still would have won in the end because they were very skilled and far more hungry for world domination than we were (it never even dawned on us that we should become a hegemon). Their strongest weapon of the time was that we didn't truly understand them until it was too late. As a result, we allowed them to divide us so they could conquer us in small groups. That is the method of the NPO, and over three years, they have rationalized their actions in a way that prompted all of us to turn a blind eye as they destroyed those who would oppose them, part by part, piece by piece, until there were nearly none left to oppose them openly. They destroyed LUE while the Legion and ODN watched. They defeated the Legion and ODN with the help of FAN. They destroyed FAN with the help of the GOONs. They destroyed the GOONs with the help of the ODN and Legion. You don't have to punish their members with harsh terms to stop them from rearming and taking over the world. All you have to do is see them for what they truly are and not allow complacency to prompt you to underestimate their skill or the lengths that they will go to regain dominance. The effort doesn't end at the end of the war. You will have to watch them for as long as they continue to play the game, because they are better at it than you and will beat you if you let them. If you really want to prevent the NPO from winning the game, then don't be short sighted and allow them to use your own ambitions to destroy others. Every time they bring a casus belli to these forums, reject it on the grounds that they are only killing another ally in the neverending fight to contain them. You won't have to do anything else other than take away their means to divide and conquer. A lack of wars and boredom will kill Pacifica far more readily than any harsh peace terms that you could come up with.

That is pretty much it. We were left with a legacy of lawyer speak in our two previous treaties. In order to reinstate the MDP with Greenland and fulfill our past obligations (which is something a few of the Knights have been pushing for since July of 2007), we had to first dissolve the Writ which created a massive loophole that prevented us from actually defending them. But dissolving the Writ still takes seven days, so we have to wait a full week or we would be potentially attacking a signatory of that treaty, which is something that we are not willing to do to a friend. As for bandwagons and such- it is really very simple. If Greenland attacks you- accept our best wishes for a good and honorable fight against our allies (that includes the NPO). If you attack Greenland- then we will be scheduling an appointment with you in about 4.5 days. As for the relationship between GR and the OBR. It has been there since their founding- we have had at least one Knight masked as a full member on their boards for two years, and one of our Knights chose to go on a quest to fight for GR in last summer's curbstomp- earning a perma ZI sentence and his retirement from the game as a consequence. Say what you like about the Greenland Republic (they are addicted to spam, have a spork fetish, routinely behave badly in public), but they happen to be the one alliance in the game that I am absolutely convinced are not afraid of the curbstomp. I can think of no better ally for any alliance, they'd stand with you if it were 10:1 odds and not blame you for the beating they took afterward.

There is leaving and then there is leaving. I can relate to some of the feelings players are evincing as of late. When the world seems to shift radically, it is easy to say that your era has past and that anything that matters will be gone from the game. But if in your heart, you know that your actions are really game motivated, then I'd hold off on deleting your nation- I deleted mine once when my alliance disbanded after the NPO "won" the game. And although I am glad that the NAAC did not have to live through the same decline that GATO and Legion have suffered. I regularly regret that I am not Arctic any longer and that the only reminder of Mackinac is a screenshot in a shrine that a friend set up for it. I am not saying that it is bad being Quercus, all I am saying is that there some things that you can't undo. I have always felt that the people who were serious about leaving simply left without a word or a backward glance. That is why anytime I take the time to read one of these post, whether it is friend or foe, I try to talk them out of it. When the war ends, step back from your responsibilities and think on it. Maybe a few months will be enough to recharge your batteries and inspire you to have another go at it. Best wishes, Q

The OBR has always interpreted this as a Mutual Defense Pact. We reinstated it intending that it not be explicitly non-chaining, but clearly with no provision for aggressive action. If another alliance with full knowledge of this treaty should decide to attack GR without what we perceive to be valid provocation, then we will interpret it as an attack upon our alliance and move to stop them diplomatically and militarily. What Sir Neboe was stating in his OP is that we find the prospect of bandwagoning distasteful. The scent of blood is in the water, but that is no reason for people to forget civility or to seek battle without a viable casus belli. As for Blackwater, they are the arm of the Order and a part of the larger realm, as are the nations in the Realm of the Rose and the nations on Quest who serve with other alliances. All are sworn to the Rose and obligated to maintain the standards set down and enforced by the Knight Protector. I will also state that there is more from us beyond this day of surprises. We mean to create a treaty better than the Writ and to offer it to the alliances that espouse the ideals of fair play and mutual respect. It is our intention to go beyond our endless talk of making this game and community a better place and to actually perform the deeds that will make it so. I trust that with a reinvigorated Sir Neboe at the helm, that the Order will go further to reach her stated goals than ever before and for the first time in many months, I am proud to be a Knight of this Order and excited to be a citizen of Planet Bob.

I felt the same way. Strange, we seem to agree more often as I get older, this has to be the third time this week.

Respect to my Commander for having the courage to recognize and act on the fact that this document and our status quo is broken. Long live the Realm and the ideals that it seeks to uphold.