Experimentum

Greetings Salmia, Its nice to meet you. Dame Themis made a pledge to you all that was irrespective of time: If her original issue of that pledge on February 28th cannot be considered current (I have a tendency to agree with you on that point, Salmia) then her reissue of it a mere three days ago certainly wakes the thing up again. Remember, I'd let it go the first time. Her bringing it up again (as well as accusing me of dishonesty once more) was simply too much. Salmia, I also agree with you that it's entirely and solely within OBR's purview to discipline or not discipline Themis. If they want someone in their ranks who cannot be trusted to honor their pledges that's their business. However, at the very least, she owes me an apology for repeatedly calling me a liar and all of you an apology for not honoring her promise to you. OOC: Dame Themis is a 50ish man in RL and I'm not gay. End of story.

The Wait For Themis I wouldn’t be a good host if I didn’t do a recap at this point. Lord knows no one can be expected to go all the way back to the beginning of a discussion just to find out what its about anymore. 1. Back in late February I exposed the fact that the OBR’s Writ De Credo was a con job. 2. Six pages later, then-Squire Hime Themis said it just wasn’t so, implied that I was lying, and pledged: 3. I let the accusation go and considered myself in permanent retirement. 4. June 28th arrived and it was announced that Squire Hime Themis had been promoted to Dame Themis; the female equivalent of a Knight. During the ensuing discussion now-Dame Themis went a little farther in her accusations against me this time charging me with libel. (Libel – a false and malicious publication printed for the purpose of defaming a living person.) In other words, she was this time explicitly accusing me of lying. She went on to repeat her pledge to all of Digiterra/Planet Bob: 5. The next day I received word of Dame Themis’ accusations by horse-borne courier. (I have no idea why it was sent that way. Most folks know OBRers use text messaging these days.) Less than happy at the news, I returned from retirement, started the thread you’re now reading and challenged the Dame to reaffirm her pledge to stand against the OBR should it be definitively proven that the Writ De Credo was a deliberately deceptive document. 6. Dame Themis responded by posting some nonsensical gibberish about a presumably mythological construct named RL. She followed by contacting me privately (OOC: Personal Messenger) only to elaborate on this “RL” fairy land and to request that I retreat from my public challenge. I responded, privately, by reiterating my challenge. She then replied with a “no” wrapped up with a bow in more “RL” gibberish. 7. I informed the world of the Dame’s decision and finally presented irrefutable evidence of the Writ De Credo’s intentionally deceptive nature – screenshots of the original discussion between the Black Rose Herself and me on the very evening the Writ was being… written. 8. Das Girl showed up and I melted. 9. A general consensus developed that the Writ was indeed deceptive (Example 1, Example 2) and that the Dame was subject to answer for her accusations (Example 3) 10. For more than 48 hours neither the Order of The Black Rose as a whole nor Dame Themis have had the courage, honesty, or honor (your pick) to so much as address the charges placed. And so we all begin “The Wait for Themis.”

My most sincere apologies. I had no idea you were a gray-haired old timer as well. I feel a bit upset that I haven't met you until now. *Experimentum shakes Jacques Cousteau's hand Hm. OBRers. Still I see none. Curious.

While I don’t know that WarriorConcept would go quite that far, he’s certainly one of the most well-versed citizens of Digiterra. As I once was (a very long time ago), he has been privy to a wide range of confidential information from an array of alliances for a good while now. Chances are, if you believe yourself to be thoroughly informed on all the ins and outs of why Alliance X went to war with Alliance Y, WarriorConcept could sit you down and explain how the whole mess was actually due to some completely unrelated (OOC: and RL) matter. He could but he wouldn’t. He rolls like that. When I was a member of The Legion in the earliest months of its existence (and a 200 nation alliance was considered a whopper), we were in fact approached with such a treaty by… LUE I think… perhaps GOONS. Unlike what might happen today, that document wasn’t taken seriously or considered appropriate at all. No proposed treaty bereft of a slew of clauses, provisions, and articles was ever considered a genuine effort. At the very, incremental least there were sections describing the nature of the proposed relationship, under precisely what conditions one alliance could come to the aid of the other militarily, financially, and diplomatically, and how long the two had to wait to punch each other in the nose once the treaty was cancelled. Violating any of those terms was a big no-no and could likely create a situation in which your alliance suddenly found itself fending off political attacks from alliances other than the one you signed with in the first place. Oddly enough Jacques, in going off on this tangent you’ve managed to illustrate exactly why the Writ De Credo was so “nefarious” in its language. The Writ sought to convey a sense of professionalism and thoroughness (and comfort as a result of both) while surreptitiously side-stepping, circumventing, and taking advantage of a number of widely accepted conventions of inter-alliance relations. In a time in which I agree that the letter of the law was held quasi-sacred, the Writ exploited that trust. Which also goes to show… hmm… OK. I’m too distracted now. I can’t go on with this line of thought any longer. The continued absence of OBRers in this thread has become simply too conspicuous. Not only has the entire membership failed to come to the assistance of their newly minted Dame, Dame Themis herself seems… unwilling to answer to the charges raised. She appears to be exceedingly reluctant to utter but a syllable in her own defense even as the evidence mounts and public opinion has gradually evolved. I’m forced to wonder exactly why that is. I know that the Knight’s Council and then-Squire Hime Themis found themselves having to smooth relations with a number of Writ Signatories when the deceptive nature of the document was revealed. What I don’t know is precisely what they told them all. I imagine that whatever was said had to be close to the OBR party line the Knight Protector established here. Given the general consensus now prevalent that the Writ was most certainly manipulative, dishonest, and perhaps even “nefarious,” and the Queen’s own unintentional testimony on how precisely the Writ was designed to be so, it would appear that the good Knight Protector’s post was… incorrect. By extension it also seems apparent that whatever all those Signatories were initially told may have also been… incorrect. Perhaps, by their absence, OBRers seek to avoid such a thing being introduced into the discussion. I can understand that. Public revelation of yet more questionable activity would indeed be politically inconvenient.

*Experimentum bows to one knee before the esteemed Das Girl *Experimentum risks being so presumptuous as to offer a hug It is truly a pleasure to see you, fair lady. I've sincerely missed you and would be happy to have you commenting here even if it were to flay me. As fellow citizens from the very earliest days of Digiterra, we've seen the world change before ours eyes in ways we would never have imagined yet, ironically, those of us that have been here from the start have only grown closer. Heck, Arctic/Quercus and I actually talk to Ivan on occasion in a mutually respectful manner. Who ever would've thought that could happen? Again, welcome, fair Das Girl.

Good job, Tungsten. That's a fairly well put Cliff Notes version and probably sufficient for most purposes. There are additional details such as the timing of Themis' original post as it related to my original post four months ago, the implications of the body of her post, what could and could not be considered a reasonable interpretation of her post, etc. but, unless Teriethien or someone else requests a thorough breakdown with additional accompanying screenshots, I'd prefer to err on the side of brevity. (Plus I've got RL work to do. Hope you can understand that.) Speaking of reasonable interpretations Teriethien, while I believe you are correct in noting that Themis never publicly uttered the words "lie" or "liar" I also believe that its clear by the tone of her two posts concerning me and the attempts at character assassination contained therein that she was doing no less than accusing me of lying. As evidence of reasonable interpretation in this case, I present Sal Paradise's response to her first post. As to the issue of the Writ's existence before Themis' nation came into being and what would normally be a good reason to let the gal off the hook, Themis herself saw fit to nullify such a consideration when she said: Had she said that once, I too would be inclined to give her a break (as I did for four months). But twice? Sorry. She dug a hole for herself and it's time to call her on it. There's not a thing in the world wrong with not really getting it, Teriethien. OBR's methods, rules, and regulations can be quite convoluted. I doubt that anyone not fully immersed in the traditions of the OBR could easily grasp the severity of Themis' infraction. What she did is worth making a fuss over because the penalties for such actions are clearly (well... maybe not precisely clearly since it's all largely legalese) spelled out in the Roselution - the document that might best be called our constitution. Themis appears to have committed Treason and is subject to trial in the Chamber of Inquisition with the penalty of expulsion and ZI very real possibilities. The Chamber of Inquisition, you see, adheres to a Medieval standard of law. "Innocent until proven guilty" does not apply there. OOC: OK. I really do have to get back to work now. This has turned out to be an enjoyable discussion. Thank you all for your comments so far. I look forward to seeing what turns up next.

In all honesty, the conflict between Themis’ oath to the OBR and Themis’ pledge to everyone else here is something of a side issue. She just happened to walk herself into that one and I’m highlighting it. I came back because I’m agitated beyond all endurance at repeatedly being called a liar by this person. Nevertheless, I’ll address your concern directly. In every oath of fealty, whether it be the first spoken for simple acceptance into the Order or the one committed to upon reaching Knighthood, contains some manner of wording which says in effect, “I swear to defend Her Highness and the Order, no matter what, until I cease to exist on Digiterra.” Those oaths are taken extremely seriously and any action or statement that contravenes them, in any way whatsoever, calls into question the OBRers honesty while taking their oath and exposes them to the possibility of trial in The Chamber of Inquisition for lying to the Queen (otherwise known as Treason) as well as lying to all their fellow OBRers. Themis has clearly and publicly expressed twice that there are conditions under which she would vacate her oath. You don’t get to have it both ways and be an OBRer in good standing. As for the intent of the Writ, take another glance over those logs. From day one it was intended to deceive and manipulate those who placed enough trust in us to affix their signatures to the document. We laughed about it in fact – repeatedly. There can now be little, if any, dispute over the nature of the treaty or that Themis pledged to oppose the OBR if such could be shown. If you still have questions, I’ll be more than happy to expound further a little later. RL, at the moment, intrudes.

All of you reading this will be interested to know that I've just been engaged in an exchange of PMs with the Themis in question. She has refused to confirm, once more, that she said precisely what we all know she did say... twice over. Instead of the typical c&p job, I here present screenshots of the original IM discussion that took place between myself and Her Highness during the wee hours of December 7 and 8, 2006 as the Writ De Credo was being written. These logs were never included in the original "Crimes of Persuasion" thread because I felt revealing them was out of bounds at the time. Today you, Hime Themis, forced my hand. I will not continue to sit idly by while you accuse me of dishonesty. For those of you who are unaware, "Pico" is Her Highness' RL nickname. It was impossible to conceal that fact while simultaneously preserving the veracity of the documents. You'll also notice that very small passages have been blacked out. While I feel it's become imperative to address this issue, I see no reason to unnecessarily expose RL details as Hime Themis seems intent on implying. An expletive has been altered as well. <-- click to enlarge <-- and so forth So there you have it, Themis. The Queen Herself explaining in detail the Writ's "nefarious intent" as you called it – and it was present from day one. There could hardly be evidence more immune to reasonable doubt. It's your move now. You have to choose. Were you lying to every single national ruler on Digiterra/Planet Bob when you said this: or were you only lying to the Queen and all your fellow OBRers when you said this: They are mutually exclusive statements, Themis. You simply can't have it both ways. Will you hold true to your word, abdicate your oath, and stand against the OBR as you've pledged to the entirety of this world or will you look us all in the face and admit that your word can't be trusted?

There are no RL issues to discuss here, Themis. To suggest so is actually offensive. As you can well see, everything presented so far has been utterly, entirely IC. Will you reaffirm what you've posted twice now or are you simply afraid to address the matter at hand?

I too would like to express my congratulations to Sir Winslow and Sir W_A_R. They are indeed very deserving members. Sir Winslow was always tireless in his efforts and adherence to guidance. He is an OBRer to the core. Sir W_A_R, once deeply regretful over a mistake, once offered his resignation for the good of OBR. Such willingness for self-sacrifice can never be adequately rewarded. Now, so as to avoid further derailment of this thread, Hime Themis, please meet me in this new thread.

The very last thing I would have foreseen myself doing with this evening was addressing some issue on Digiterra. I’d happily left this place behind and was exceedingly content in my retirement. Yet here I find myself once more – drawn back to defend my word. Frankly, bluntly, I’m sick to death of receiving messages from folks telling me about how once more Hime Themis has called me a liar. It’s time for that to stop. And in stopping it we’ll kill two birds with one stone. Hime Themis, you have twice now (here and here ) posted the following: You also carry the following in your signature on OBR’s fora: “The worth of a person is her word and deeds.” Do you, without equivocation, stand by what you’ve said? Setting aside the fact that your quote appears to clearly violate the oath of fealty you took mere days ago, will you here reaffirm that you will stand opposite the OBR should it be proven, definitively, that the Writ De Credo was not what it appeared?

OOC: You do get used to it. Painfully so. Eventually you won't care if your numbers are going up or down. IC: I believe the proper spelling is newb, newb.

OOC: *hug Don’t sweat it, buddy. Most of OBR currently hates my character anyway. I’ll admit, although I came to regret the methods we used to get you all off the hook, for the longest time I was burning with anger at the lot of you. On the same weekend as your crisis my 80-year-old grandmother (with whom I’m very close and speak with daily) had been rushed to the hospital for heart trouble. The woman who plays Her Highness had relatives visiting from nearly a thousand miles away. The whole time we were both checking into OBR every 30-45 minutes, all day and all night long for three days straight, in order to fix your situation. What really drove us (and me particularly) up a wall was all the… well… b*tching some of you were throwing our way while we busted our butts in RL… over numbers on a monitor… and the imaginary constructs we call nations and alliances. It took me a long while to get past that frustration and what appeared to be a total lack of gratitude on NEAT’s part. Eventually the woman that plays Her Highness made a comment that caused me to reevaluate. She said, “They had no idea what we were sacrificing offline.” As my character earlier remarked – even in this instance of a poorly performed operation according to OBR standards – it’s extremely rare for a soldier or Page to have any idea of just how much is going on in the Round Table at any given moment. Now, back to the IC mudslinging. Keep it up. I know we can top 3000 views if we go at each others throats with a bit more zeal. IC: In answer, my very favorite quote from The Lion in Winter:

That’s called a joke, Ulji. NEAT has repeatedly espoused direct democracy so adamantly that some have wondered just how far you take it. You and I have never before had a cross word. It’s sad to see the development here. “Under the Rose.” Interesting phrase. I’ve never heard it before. As a former subject of Her Highness, you should know quite well that far more was transpiring behind the scenes than was visible to a soldier. Every Page knows the same from simple observation. Long after OBR had stepped in, entirely negated NEAT’s suit for peace, and established terms we found more to our liking regardless of your wishes, you and your brethren were very nearly as in the dark once you’d become soldiers. That fact in and of itself demonstrates the difference between proper organization and a bunch of friends having a good time. Indeed what we did on behalf of NEAT was considered in error by a measure that has never been discussed openly. There were people that actually had some notion of what we were doing. A perfectly executed operation, by OBR standards, is one that is successfully completed without a soul ever the wiser about what was done. I suppose one can say it’s akin to conning a mark out of his money and sending him off convinced he conned you. If it’s any consolation, I’ll tell you this: Working in OBR administration is not fun. It is not done as if a group of older players have come together to play a game. It’s highly professional, meticulously calculated, painstakingly documented, secretive like you wouldn’t believe, and, essentially, what you would expect of a group of RL professionals that brought their business practices home with them and poured them into what should be a pastime. You really shouldn’t have said all that in public, Ulji. A quote from The Lion in Winter for your benefit:

Disclosure Statement: As a Knight in Exile, I in no way speak for the current administration of OBR. __________________________ Burn1, I never had any love for you and neither did a number of the other Knights. Frankly, it was not your rhetoric in its entirety we had a problem with but your presentation of it. You’re not doing your brethren any favors by reappearing here. Indeed, you’re compromising their legal ability to reform unmolested. NEAT as a whole struck us as mind-bogglingly disorganized and a wonder of confusion in motion. To put it lightly, we were at a loss over how the alliance managed to accomplish so much as deciding who would post the poll in order to conduct a vote – which was required for absolutely every move you made. (Did you hold a vote on who would post the poll? How did you arrive upon the person to post the poll to vote on who would post the poll about whatever matter you were originally attempting to decide?) That aside we found the majority of NEAT members with whom we’d been in contact to be good-natured, generous sorts deserving of a chance. If not for that disposition and the insistence of then-Page W_A_R (who worked extremely hard behind the scenes because he wanted very much to reward you for being such reliable Tech vendors), The Factum de Gremio Rosa never would have been seriously considered. Even then, Her Highness saw granting Protectorate Status as a bit much of a prize for a group of nations that honored – as all nations should – their business agreements. A bonus payment of three million to each NEAT nation seemed a more reasonable compensation for your admittedly consistent service. Disregarding for the moment your impression of your leadership (and yes, despite the protestations of NEAT’s membership, you have always obviously been, at the very least, the most influential voice in the organization), your statement above appears designed to induce your readers here to believe NEAT was the pinnacle of cooperation and peaceful coexistence. That’s false. <--- click to enlarge As seen here, between 9 May 2008 and 13 May 2008 in NEAT’s former embassy at OBR, you and two other members clearly disclose your policies on “anti-raiding-raiding” and aggressive wars. The simple fact that such guidelines existed would seem to put to rest any notion that NEAT was a new Grey Council. Your own elaboration on what NEAT would view as justification for an aggressive war and the deliberately loose definitions surrounding those justifications drives the point home that NEAT was not at all a completely benign alliance under your influence. Taken together, and as logic would demand, it is impossible to regard NEAT as an alliance that does not “plot” against other alliances if it also engages in “anti-raiding-raiding,” and “aggressive wars.” The simple act of conducting either operation involves plotting from its very inception. If you’re going to bring up a fact or historical reference, please be informed about that which you speak. I’m sure all of Digiterra is ecstatic over your sense of righteous fulfillment, but it is a disservice to your readers to lead them to believe you have a full grasp of the events you mention. The Order Of The Black Rose never issued an official apology for its treatment of NEAT. I did. I personally apologized to NEAT as a whole for not supporting Sirs Yenisey, Gwalchfaen, and Quercus as they appealed, behind closed doors, to OBR’s conscience and sense of nobility. I apologized for not arguing to uphold the spirit of The Factum de Gremio Rosa. I apologized for not exercising my influence as First Knight to affect a more honorable outcome. The OBR, it’s Queen, nor it’s present Knight Protector, Sir Neboe, has done any such thing and until that day comes it is not only inappropriate but entirely inaccurate to ascribe an apology to them. The foundation upon which you base your original post is utterly false. Burn1, as I implied earlier, do your friends a favor: fade away. They’re a good bunch of guys and you’re burying them with every utterance. As I recall, one of the main justifications for the decimation of NEAT – behind high-level, inter-alliance closed doors – was your personal affiliation with Walford and NONE and the level of influence you held within your alliance. Starting this thread was nothing more than an attempt at personal aggrandizement, a wish to reclaim some measure of perceived previous international influence, and an inability to refrain from saying “I toldja so” (regardless of its accuracy). You know it’s true. By authoring this thread you have brought unwanted attention on the peaceful reformation of NEAT, called into question your friends’ and compatriots’ intentions with your inaccuracies and misinformation, and compromised their futures by reminding us all of… you.