This Week in the Network

[Mogar]

I am 85% certain that DBDC pulled that stunt when we defended ourselves from their raids.

They did, in fact attempt to claim we were holding them at war unjustly, and was one of the reasons we got the top heavy counters we did, since it removed out ability to further enact our defensive war against poor innocent DBDC.

 

 

Mogar, to spare you some time and effort, I am not here to do this song and dance.

 

Focus on the willing.

It's no effort to point out to you that your alliance is simply a supporting actor in the same play you used to be the lead. 

[Mogar]

 

Gotta love a man who speaks his mind, not the 'mission'.

Let's not be naive Margrave, I speak my mind, it just so happens that my opinion is Tech Raids should be entered into with an understanding that sometimes your opponents gonna fight back, and you're gonna have to suck it up and actually work with them to come to a lasting peace, something that Polaris and TOP literally just taught a lesson about a month ago, I would have thought for a place with such long memories in regards to grudges, a basic concept like that would have stuck.

[Dajobo]

Indeed Margrave I agree with you. The thing is ODN were the ones to say if they came they would come with 1000 nations. Now the world is waiting to see which allies support ODN's threat and which do not.

STA and GATO have had members state clearly they do not. The rest have remained totally silent on their position and so must be assumed to support ODN's threat until they say otherwise.

[Mogar]

I take their silence to mean the opposite, to be fair Dajobo, I suspect even ODN would have difficulties passing the necessary vote to attack a WTF defending themselves against a tech raid.

[Dajobo]

You're possibly right Mogar. Now I'm retired I can enjoy being nosey though :D

[Mogar]

Certainly why I prefer the non governmental role.

[WorldConqueror]

Indeed Margrave I agree with you. The thing is ODN were the ones to say if they came they would come with 1000 nations. Now the world is waiting to see which allies support ODN's threat and which do not.
STA and GATO have had members state clearly they do not. The rest have remained totally silent on their position and so must be assumed to support ODN's threat until they say otherwise.

Or maybe they feel that a throwaway comment made by an ODN member in private requires no public response.

[Letum]

You play the same game of rolling others without any real provocation

Well, if going by your logic we have to be "next" for the "provocation" of being part of last war's coalition, then parts of the "Nascar Coalition" made the "provocation" of rolling & imposing silly terms on the "NSO Coalition" of the Disorder War, parts of which had made the "provocation" of messing up the war ending and rolling the "Competence Coalition" in the Equilibrium war, parts of which made the "provocation" of rolling SF/XX & Allies in the Dave and Grudge Wars, parts of which helped roll NpO/NPO in the PB-NpO and DH-NPO wars, and so on and so on to the beginning of everything.

The composition of the sides changes greatly in each war, of course, but the point is that there will always be some core people in a defensive coalition that someone will have grudge against due something that happened in a past war.

So I find it hard to take all your posturing about people being left along seriously when in the same breath you also suggest a huge chunk of alliances should be rolled merely for having a standard CN war history.

Ultimately it boils down to classic human tribal dynamics. We divide down into set little groups and label anyone belonging to a different group as "others". They are on the "other wide", the "wrong side", the "enemy side", the side that contains someone who did something to us in the past and that taints them all by association. And it is a classic tribal mentality to only apply the benefits of whatever moral standards and rights one holds to "your side" only. The "others" will simply get what is coming to them - and sometimes it is the sad reality that the people who champion morality and kindness the loudest for "their" grouping are also the ones who will be the cruelest to "others".

 

I'd love for you to provide an example of RIA rolling someone for a bad reason.

How do we define "bad reason"?

 

It's no effort to point out to you that your alliance is simply a supporting actor in the same play you used to be the lead.

What you perceive as a "play" in which we are "supporting actors", I perceive as a "sideshow" in which we are not even "in the audience" for because we're hard at work on our own goals.

[Mogar]

Or maybe they feel that a throwaway comment made by an ODN member in private requires no public response.

ODN has made it clear to WTF that ODN will escalate the conflict unless WTF agrees to give DBDC a(n easy) way out, that's not merely a throwaway comment, that's their entire attempt at diplomacy.
 
 
 

Well, if going by your logic we have to be "next" for the "provocation" of being part of last war's coalition, then parts of the "Nascar Coalition" made the "provocation" of rolling & imposing silly terms on the "NSO Coalition" of the Disorder War, parts of which had made the "provocation" of messing up the war ending and rolling the "Competence Coalition" in the Equilibrium war, parts of which made the "provocation" of rolling SF/XX & Allies in the Dave and Grudge Wars, parts of which helped roll NpO/NPO in the PB-NpO and DH-NPO wars, and so on and so on to the beginning of everything.

You'll be part of at least one more winning coalition before you have to lose another, perhaps even two depending on how the next one plays out, of course none of this has to do with the fact WTF was attacked without a CB, as a tech raid to prove DBDC's strength on their birthday. Now a few months later, WTF is still fighting and DBDC wants out, that's not how war works, and you know this from your own alliance's history(FAN sound familiar? or Brehon's keeping you guys at war for another three weeks to get lesser peace mode terms? Or how about last war and Polaris/TOP?), regardless of who wins or loses statistically both sides need to agree when a war will end. If ODN gets involved, will you defend ODN if they end up needing your help?

The composition of the sides changes greatly in each war, of course, but the point is that there will always be some core people in a defensive coalition that someone will have grudge against due something that happened in a past war.

The composition of the sides changes far less dramatically than you'd like to pretend. Generally the scenario has been one of the spheres of the winning coalition allies the losing coalition and then rolls the other half of the winning coalition. There is no grudge to be had in regards to WTF, no previous slight or provocation of which they deserve anything other than the one on one that DBDC wanted with them.

So I find it hard to take all your posturing about people being left alone seriously when in the same breath you also suggest a huge chunk of alliances should be rolled merely for having a standard CN war history.

Ultimately it boils down to classic human tribal dynamics. We divide down into set little groups and label anyone belonging to a different group as "others". They are on the "other wide", the "wrong side", the "enemy side", the side that contains someone who did something to us in the past and that taints them all by association. And it is a classic tribal mentality to only apply the benefits of whatever moral standards and rights one holds to "your side" only. The "others" will simply get what is coming to them - and sometimes it is the sad reality that the people who champion morality and kindness the loudest for "their" grouping are also the ones who will be the cruelest to "others".

I suggest one particular alliance has proven they do not wish to be held to the same standards of warfare that every other alliance in the history of CN has been forced to follow, if they wish to burn political capital rolling an independent alliance I may not be able to stop them, but if you are a tenth of the Emperor that your predecessors are, you would not support one of the very actions that led to Karma in the first place.

How do we define "bad reason"?

A justification that would be considered sound and reasonable to an uninvolved party would be my definition.

What you perceive as a "play" in which we are "supporting actors", I perceive as a "sideshow" in which we are not even "in the audience" for because we're hard at work on our own goals.

This entire world is a Stage, and all of us actors, I know my own role in that play, and I know the role RIA will play, neither of which has changed their roles upon this incarnation of Mogatopia. Pacifica on the other hand, has certainly changed its role over the years, what will your own history show Letum, do you wish to be Moo or Moldavi? Edited March 11, 2015 by Mogar

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Ultimately it boils down to classic human tribal dynamics. We divide down into set little groups and label anyone belonging to a different group as "others". They are on the "other wide", the "wrong side", the "enemy side", the side that contains someone who did something to us in the past and that taints them all by association. And it is a classic tribal mentality to only apply the benefits of whatever moral standards and rights one holds to "your side" only. The "others" will simply get what is coming to them - and sometimes it is the sad reality that the people who champion morality and kindness the loudest for "their" grouping are also the ones who will be the cruelest to "others".

The really sad thing is you understand this well enough to explain it so clearly, yet you do not even try to rise above it.

[masterofwind]

 

˙˙˙ʇuǝʇuoɔ pǝɔuɐlɐq puɐ ǝʌıʇɔǝɾqo ɹoɟ pǝpnɐlddɐ ƃuol
 

 
Oh wait. That's better....   
 
Beyond obvious bias, the cherry-picking of facts, taking statements totally out of context and an apparent total obliviousness to the actual situation on the ground, I just have to say that you at least kept me amused for a few moments. Unfortunately it was just that - a few moments.
 
So where do we start?
 

Threat, and War, and Talk and Veils - says journalistic Demi-God Schattenmann
 
 
- Overlord Shinnra began by stating that while the ODN supports and acknowledges the right of anybody to defend against attacks that we have long term interest in DBDC as our ally.

 

While we (the ODN) understand your right to defend yourself from the aggressor. We also have long term interests to look after in Noob Cake and also DBDC as a whole. I hope you understand this.
 
I suppose the next logical question is how long do you estimate this war will go on?

 

He then asked how long the war was expected to last. I'm spelling it out for you given your obviously basic comprehension skills. 
 
But clearly this is aggressive war talk in upside down land. The fact that an alliance might have "an interest in our ally" is obviously such an unheard of concept that it equated to aggression, veiled threats and blah blah blah. Sorry, to make it easier for you: ˙puɐl uʍop ǝpısdn uı ʞlɐʇ ɹɐʍ ǝʌıssǝɹƃƃɐ sı sıɥʇ ʎlɹɐǝlɔ
 
 
Schatterman Shows his Jounralistic Integrity Yet Again
 

 

I had to take a few moments to adjust. Perhaps I've just been in the ODN too long or have stayed away from the OWF too long, but I have to say I'm used to rational and calm debate, so going back to name calling, insults, and casting about aspersions regarding our independence and integrity is just a little more playground than I am used to

 
There are certain standards we are uphold regarding bad-language, OOC discussion and diplomatic conventions. 
These are present both within the ODN and on the OWF. I make no apologies for wishing to maintain them. In fact, I'm surprised you do not. But obviously that wouldn't fit with the narrative you are trying to create, so twist, spin, chop, cut and hey presto, "ODN sucks, LOL."
 
With that said, beyond a few statements (that should be forgiven in what is a very tense situation) I've found many members of WTF to be friendly, intelligent and welcoming. 
 
Keep Looking at Me, says Schattenmann
 
Onto your next bit of nonsense: 
 

How dare you attempt to equate WTF's resolve to fight to the death with past suicide runs.

 
And that would be a great point, wonderful, devastating, infuriating: except that many members of WTF had stated publicly and privately that they had long ago lost interest and wanted to hurt DBDC on their way out. One example:
 

 

my nation had actually gone 40 days inactive when the birdies came knocking. the only reason that i returned was to cause as much pain to DBDC as possible for their ruination of the game for me

.
 
So Let's Cut the Crap, shall we?
 
The central point, which you wilfully seem to be missing, is that WTF's stand currently consists of offensive wars on about 4 DBDC nations. And respect to them for that. But let's be frank here, who is really hurting most in all this? WTF is taking an obscene amount of damage and doing a negligible amount in return - check the war stats. There is a vocal group talking forever war (enough to attack 4 DBDC nations), but we wanted to see how deep this went. As you might be aware WTF does not have a government. 

 

So, yes, we'd like to see an end to this war, yes DBDC are our ally, and yes there is some collective sympathy for WTF - even if they are damn neutrals. But at least we are attempting to help resolve this situation and are not posting shoddy, ego inflating, puff-pieces on the OWF that amount to little to more than a testament to the fact that you hate ODN, like to feel important and have difficulty with reading.

 
 
The Reality - (you read this as ʎʇılɐǝɹ)
 
We actually ended up having a productive a friendly dialogue, both privately and publicly that went on for a good length of time. And just to drive the point home, if anyone is still in doubt, let's just listen to what WTF have to say about ODN:
 

 

I dont like many people in CN 

But i have to say OS is a decent guy!

Thanks for your concern and for taking the time to come here.

 

Your statements are well-crafted, reasonable, and eloquent; quite pleasant to read; and difficult to dispute.

 

Overlord Shinnra, your points are well taken. There is nothing unreasonable about your position and it is something to be considered; consideration does not mean acceptance, it only means recognizing your perspective.

Too bad, I found Overlord Shinnra to be an interesting and respectful fellow.

 

Anyway, thanks Schatternmann. You got me to post on the OWF. I will never forgive you. 

 

Better idea.

 

 

 

[Caladin]

The central point, which you wilfully seem to be missing, is that WTF's stand currently consists of offensive wars on about 4 DBDC nations. And respect to them for that. But let's be frank here, who is really hurting most in all this? WTF is taking an obscene amount of damage and doing a negligible amount in return - check the war stats. There is a vocal group talking forever war (enough to attack 4 DBDC nations), but we wanted to see how deep this went. As you might be aware WTF does not have a government. 
 
So, yes, we'd like to see an end to this war, yes DBDC are our ally, and yes there is some collective sympathy for WTF - even if they are damn neutrals. But at least we are attempting to help resolve this situation and are not posting shoddy, ego inflating, puff-pieces on the OWF that amount to little to more than a testament to the fact that you hate ODN, like to feel important and have difficulty with reading.

So, to summarise, you want peace in the DBDC-WTF raid gone wrong not just for the sake of your allies, but because those poor, ignorant neutrals don't know what is good for them and need the experienced politicians and diplomats from ODN to inform them of such?

[gatorback05]

So, to summarise, you want peace in the DBDC-WTF raid gone wrong not just for the sake of your allies, but because those poor, ignorant neutrals don't know what is good for them and need the experienced politicians and diplomats from ODN to inform them of such?

 

What is peace?

[Sir Kiloist]

Well at least can't sit around moping that nothing is happening in CN.

[Mogar]

The central point, which you wilfully seem to be missing, is that WTF's stand currently consists of offensive wars on about 4 DBDC nations. And respect to them for that. But let's be frank here, who is really hurting most in all this? WTF is taking an obscene amount of damage and doing a negligible amount in return - check the war stats. There is a vocal group talking forever war (enough to attack 4 DBDC nations), but we wanted to see how deep this went. As you might be aware WTF does not have a government.

I'll ignore the knock off text, the problem you fail to understand is victory and defeat are not measured in statistics, RIA lost far more NS than DBDC did, and yet if it were not for the most recent war, whomever was brave enough to be the lowest NS person on the DBDC AA would find themselves attacked every 5 days until they surrendered, and then we would move on to the next, and the next, the statistical loss we faced is pointless if the alternative is to simply sit upon those statistics until DBDC came for us again. 

 

So, to summarise, you want peace in the DBDC-WTF raid gone wrong not just for the sake of your allies, but because those poor, ignorant neutrals don't know what is good for them and need the experienced politicians and diplomats from ODN to inform them of such?

Reminder that OsRaven literally gets elected to the highest role in ODN on a regular basis. ODN wants peace because it is bad for their future if DBDC is weakened, can't threaten other alliances if your weapon is all fucked up.

 

 

What is peace?

 

That thing you're begging ODN to earn for you.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Mogar

[Caladin]

What is peace?

The Interlude

[Mogar]

In respect to a WTF Member's Request.

Sweller's full post upon WTF forums

There, kind Peaches3, is the flaw in your position.  Your statements are well-crafted, reasonable, and eloquent; quite pleasant to read; and difficult to dispute.  Unfortunately, you ignore the elephant in the room: the removal of the land cap 7-8 years into gameplay (and the rampant use of multis).  We have already missed the negotiation table.  Those negotiations took place when Admin kowtowed to a small, but vocal, group of nations and their money who unable to "win" the game politically asked for a change in one of the three core game mechanics.  The change was then implemented by an Admin too lazy and apathetic to consider and test the accompanying game balance issues.  
 
In your wisdom, you can see the only way to play the game now is to war, continuously, thus creating a de facto state of permanent war anyway.  Slowly, you will see the GPA, Pax, NDO, and WTF of the world disappear, not because they ragequit or are butthurt, rather because there is no longer any competitive, appealing path of gameplay.  
 
Thank you for your time.
 
EDIT: The elimination of turtling is likely the next gameplay mechanic to be changed as a direct result of DBDC's complaints about how WTF managed this war, be forewarned.

OOC Note for Moderators: I am not making any accusations in my post, merely passing along the full opinion of the WTF member who felt misquoted by masterofwind. Edited March 11, 2015 by Mogar

[Letum]

You'll be part of at least one more winning coalition before you have to lose another, perhaps even two depending on how the next one plays out, of course none of this has to do with the fact WTF was attacked without a CB, as a tech raid to prove DBDC's strength on their birthday.

Why should I concern myself with WTF and DBDC - both alliances which are perfectly nice to me - when I have people such as yourself standing before me and responding to innocuous philosophical criticism from members of my alliance by claiming that we will be the "next" to be rolled for the provocation of being on what you consider the "wrong" side of the previous war?

Not that I consider you as an individual to be plotting to destroy me or some kind of threat, but the more you keep on spewing justifications for an aggressive agenda against the Order, the more you define yourself as being in opposition to us - without NPO even having to do so much as lift a finger. And the more you choose to define yourself as being opposed to me, the further down the "list of things that concern me" you push people like DBDC and WTF, who have made no such aggressive remarks upon the Order. Which I believe is probably self-defeating on your part, since I suspect some of the reason you are trying to be confrontational with the Order is to force us to choose between bad PR and a course of action more favourable to your own goals.

If so, I would suggest you re-evaluate.
 

This entire world is a Stage, and all of us actors, I know my own role in that play, and I know the role RIA will play, neither of which has changed their roles upon this incarnation of Mogatopia. Pacifica on the other hand, has certainly changed its role over the years, what will your own history show Letum, do you wish to be Moo or Moldavi?

I prefer to see the world as consisting of many stages. Seeing it with only one, massive, stage risks blinding yourself into thinking only what you have a role in is important, and ignoring everything else. Everyone is the star of their own story, but there's as many stories as there are stars in the sky.

Also personally, I prefer Dilber.

[gatorback05]

I'll ignore the knock off text, the problem you fail to understand is victory and defeat are not measured in statistics, RIA lost far more NS than DBDC did, and yet if it were not for the most recent war, whomever was brave enough to be the lowest NS person on the DBDC AA would find themselves attacked every 5 days until they surrendered, and then we would move on to the next, and the next, the statistical loss we faced is pointless if the alternative is to simply sit upon those statistics until DBDC came for us again. 

 

Reminder that OsRaven literally gets elected to the highest role in ODN on a regular basis. ODN wants peace because it is bad for their future if DBDC is weakened, can't threaten other alliances if your weapon is all $%&@ed up.

 

That thing you're begging ODN to earn for you.

 

First, pics of me begging ODN or are you spreading lies and propaganda?

 

Second, why would I want peace? 

 

.......

 

Praise CT & Unknown Smurf

[Sabcat]

 

Schatterman Shows his Jounralistic Integrity Yet Again
 

 

 

 

I love that you're complaining about integrity in the same post where you quote part of something from a WTF presenting it as being positive towards you only to for it to be quote in full within the hour and they're actually slating you. That's some good stuff. Please post more.

[Branimir]

Dilber was/is awesome.

[Mogar]

If so, I would suggest you re-evaluate. 

That's my personal favorite part Letum, ODN's done everything I would have wanted them to for me without so much as a breath in their direction, whatever happens next I'll be content with the outcome. 

Dilber left the Order in a strong place, but also left NPO as a leader in its sphere, can you do the same?

 

First, pics of me begging ODN or are you spreading lies and propaganda?

 

Second, why would I want peace? 

I don't think you personally want peace, now your.. lower 25% or so? They certainly seem to not have an interest in further nuclear exchanges with WTF, your god tier nations are safe but that's not really the issue at hand, now is it? DBDC's lower tier doesn't want war, so you will use ODN (and others, of course), to save DBDC from its botched tech raid.

edit: Since you wanted pics

Now based upon that wording, it seems like you guys don't want to fight WTF anymore, unless ODN is lying and then is merely acting on their own interests, oh god how could I have been so blind? it is really ODN manipulating everyone, what fiends!

 

 

I love that you're complaining about integrity in the same post where you quote part of something from a WTF presenting it as being positive towards you only to for it to be quote in full within the hour and they're actually slating you. That's some good stuff. Please post more.

Personally I hope more alliances conduct diplomacy like WTF, it certainly creates a unique atmosphere.

 

Dilber was/is awesome.

At least we can agree upon this.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Mogar

[kingzog]

Dilber was/is awesome.

 

....except for the planning of a massive attack on the NpO (for no reason in particular) which led to things like the formation of Vox, my taking a seat on the Red Senate and, ultimately, the toppling of Pacifica from the acme of power.

 

Other than that, sure. Real long-term thinker there.

[Mogar]

Wasn't it Moo by the time that Polar got stomped?

[Willie the Pimp]

OOC Note for Moderators: I am not making any accusations in my post, merely passing along the full opinion of the WTF member who felt misquoted by masterofwind.

 

 

I love that you're complaining about integrity in the same post where you quote part of something from a WTF presenting it as being positive towards you only to for it to be quote in full within the hour and they're actually slating you. That's some good stuff. Please post more.

 

I've tried to avoid this for a while (speaking here), but I guess my help is needed:

 

1. I think you mean quoted out of context, not misquoted. Misquoted pertains to an inaccurate representation of the represented utterance. Quoting out of context relates to portraying an unintended meaning through manipulation of the surrounding environment. You seem to be suggesting the latter given that the section later quoted by you is identical to the original. 

 

2. The context of the post was clearly a response to the OP and not an attempt to suggest anything about WTF's general position. This was achieved by quoting a section clearly relating to ODN members' ability to interact diplomatically in response to an OP regarding that very issue.

 

I shall in future do my best to remember my crayon.