This Week in GATO

[Enamel32]

And yet again you equate MK and Umb. When you figure out that we are separate alliances you might have less trouble seeing how things work.

You're in the same bloc. If Umb's getting rolled, you're getting rolled.

 

Last time I checked, you wouldn't be compelled to get rolled. We told Umb they had reason to get rolled with us, and they said no, and cited MK as the reason why.

 

So yes, for all intents and purposes of a getting rolled point of view, you are the same entity. Does this apply for a less drastic event? Yeah, I'd say so. Your bloc does what's best for themselves, even at the expense of your allies, and I firmly believe that.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Enamel32

[magicninja]

The fact that some of your members either didn't want to fight or were sloppy/inactive is part of it. The other part of it is that such a large amount weren't even asked to fight. Put those two together and whether it's down to refusal to fight, unwillingness to fight, inactivity or piss-poor organisation the fact remains that GATO have not, compared to most other alliances, contributed a great deal to this coalition's war effort or taken much damage for the cause. Now there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, I imagine it was the plan from the start, but that fact remains and is why when GATO start getting posts of support and praise in this thread for being involved in a beatdown and taking a lot for their allies that people will disgaree with that.

Unless you think that GATO have been involved in a beatdown and have gone out of their way to make a difference?

 

I asked many times if anyone wanted us to do anything different. I was always told no your strategy is working fine. So, I kept with it. 

 

Yes, one has to take damage to contribute to the war effort. Nevermind the 50+ nations we eradicated from the 60k+ range of the enemy while at the same time not taking the damage others did. You can't see how that would have been better for all to follow that strategy? No we should all follow VE's suicide run idea. THAT is the brilliant plan. I agree that we didn't take any beatdown. We gave far better than we received and you could have to had you not wanted to be heroes or whatever you thought you were doing. So if you want to give us grief over playing the war smart instead of suicidal...ok You can have that I guess.  

[magicninja]

Oh dear Lord, 'the GATO way'. You've said yourself that members didn't respond when you wanted them to and that you made mistakes deciding when to ask nations to come out of peace mode. Is that 'the GATO way'? I can certainly see it becoming a template for successful coalition war planning. Alliance leaders of CN! Do you want to be involved in a coaltion war so that you can fulfill your base obligations to your bloc and some allies but also take minimal damage because it isn't your war? Then employ 'The GATO Way' today!

Also I can't believe you keep mentioning Legion as if taking them to pieces requires some kind of skill.

Like I said (and keep saying) fight the war how you want, we've been in your situation before, just be honest about it and don't try and justify credit for your involvement when it hasn't been earned.

 

You still don't seem to get that we had no real problems getting people out to fight. Slower than I would have liked but in the end the result was more than satisfactory. I'm sure there are very few alliances that could claim 87% participation much less 100%......If 87% is bad fine I'll work on it. 

 

No Legion was soft but RnR and Legion along with other nations we took out here and there in FARK, DB4D, GOD and Invicta......the top down approach worked great and it would have been very interesting had the whole coalition been able to adopt the plan and play it right. We did what we were asked. From what I gather you were the ones who said nah we'll suicide run and not listen to what is being said.

[Kowalski]

So if you want to give us grief over playing the war smart instead of suicidal...ok You can have that I guess.

I'm really struggling to understand what part of "the problem is people giving you credit for things you haven't done". It's only twelve words, perhaps you can pinpoint which ones in particluar you're having a hard time with?

You seem intent on creating this image that I/we have a problem with how you've played this war. Maybe it plays into the great plan of how to deflect critisism, to try and create the impression that VE hates GATO no matter what the actual issue is so that out points can be dismmissed. Maybe you just see a post from VE mentioning GATO and without reading it have a response already lined-up.

The fact is that you haven't gone out out of your way to contribute much. Whether that's the memebrs, gov, or coaltition's fault or whether you should ever have been expected to or not the fact remains that you could have contributed a hell of a lot more. You didn't, you chose not to, the world keeps turning. However you have to expect that when people say you have it's natural for some people to stand up and say 'hang on, no they haven't'.

As for your 'strategy', the result of the war would not have ben any different. If the outcome of this war was ever in question then it would never have been started, that's how wars work nowadays. So no, your strategy of us all staying in peace mode while the alliance initially attacked gets ground to dust would not have had any great effect (as previous wars have shown). Also if you think that using Legion as an example of how it would work is going to convince anyone that it could work on some like IRON you're sadly mistaken. There's a slight difference in class between those two.

[Kowalski]

You still don't seem to get that we had no real problems getting people out to fight. Slower than I would have liked but in the end the result was more than satisfactory. I'm sure there are very few alliances that could claim 87% participation much less 100%......If 87% is bad fine I'll work on it. 
 
No Legion was soft but RnR and Legion along with other nations we took out here and there in FARK, DB4D, GOD and Invicta......the top down approach worked great and it would have been very interesting had the whole coalition been able to adopt the plan and play it right. We did what we were asked. From what I gather you were the ones who said nah we'll suicide run and not listen to what is being said.

You had problems. You've admitted that. You can try and row back on it now but it's clear your nations didn't respond as you would have liked and you also admitted that you made mistakes. If "in the end" the result being "satisactory" is good enough for you then fair enough, but you aren't exactly showering your performance with praise and pardon me if I doubt whether it deserves the credit it's been getting. But I will. Edited March 25, 2013 by Kowalski

[WorldConqueror]

You're in the same bloc. If Umb's getting rolled, you're getting rolled.
 
Last time I checked, you wouldn't be compelled to get rolled. We told Umb they had reason to get rolled with us, and they said no, and cited MK as the reason why.
 
So yes, for all intents and purposes of a getting rolled point of view, you are the same entity. Does this apply for a less drastic event? Yeah, I'd say so. Your bloc does what's best for themselves, even at the expense of your allies, and I firmly believe that.

What are you even talking about.

Anyway, my last post was referencing you taking a quote from me and somehow extrapolating that to be Umb's official stance. That is a ridiculous leap, as is even assuming that Umb members share my opinion. That is what I mean by us being separate alliances, not whatever interpretation you have that provoked all that verbal diarrhea.

[magicninja]

You had problems. You've admitted that. You can try and row back on it now but it's clear your nations didn't respond as you would have liked and you also admitted that you made mistakes. If "in the end" the result being "satisactory" is good enough for you then fair enough, but you aren't exactly showering your performance with praise and pardon me if I doubt whether it deserves the credit it's been getting. But I will.

 

We're talking about a pitiful smattering of nations...what... 5% of the alliance......I don't really consider it a problem. 5% non-compliance 5% slow...... For GATO? That's ridiculously good and the end result was great. No, I'm not showering it with praise so why are you giving me crap? I said we did what we were asked. I didn't claim any extraordinary lengths. We had a plan. We stuck to it. We did more damage than received  Our allies or the coalition, AFAIK never asked for more. Certainly never asked me directly. We had 5 guys who never came out of peace and maybe 5-6 that came out too slow for me. Special? Not at all. Good? I think so considering the other side thought they under 100k locked up and we pushed RnR and Legion both to 60k. I expected that at least and was trashed for saying so in the upper tier tracking threads so doing what I said I would do, despite the odds we were supposed to have makes me smile a little....sure. It was nothing special deserving neither praise nor to be shit upon. If going out and getting steamrolled for Umb is what makes you guys smile good for you. I'm happy for you. I hope you get another chance someday if its what you like to do. 

[Hob Dobson]

Did they follow to the exact letter and get a perfect release? No, we have never gotten that and I would have been shocked if we had. You're talking about 5 guys Kowalski out of the whole alliance....you realize this right? Even if you wanted to extend to guys who didn't come out on the day I asked...you're adding like another 5-6 at most. We didn't start with many 80k-100k. Do you not see how ridiculously petty that is? 

 

Extrapolating from the comments posted by 4 members that VE as a whole is whining about GATO is perhaps equally petty. The comments about our stupidity in standing by our allies, whether they are Umbrella, GOD, or even at one time GATO, do nothing to remedy the pettiness.

 

 

Inefficient? You must be joking. Our damage dealt to received ratio has to be a hell of a lot better than yours. Here talking about efficiency........my god man. The way we did it was the absolute most efficient way to fight this war. Something obviously lost on VE. 

 

Efficiency has it's place, true. So do other things one may value, the relative priority of which we may disagree on.

 

While I don't have figures for the whole alliance, my own nation has pretty much stayed in the middle of the pack for the duration.  But over 21 completed conflicts, I've averaged 1.85 NS dealt/received.  Perhaps the average GATO member has been far more efficient than I have been. But perhaps it's just as well that such things are lost on such as me, because I do not regret having taken an active part in this conflict in support of an ally. In fact, trying to carry on combat with two such radically different approaches as those used by Baron Aaron [IRON] and Timberland [AI] was well worth the price of admission.

 

However, although the topic is properly GATO's experience of the war, not mine, it sounds like I've had a better time of it than you.

[magicninja]

Extrapolating from the comments posted by 4 members that VE as a whole is whining about GATO is perhaps equally petty. The comments about our stupidity in standing by our allies, whether they are Umbrella, GOD, or even at one time GATO, do nothing to remedy the pettiness.

 

 

 

Efficiency has it's place, true. So do other things one may value, the relative priority of which we may disagree on.

 

While I don't have figures for the whole alliance, my own nation has pretty much stayed in the middle of the pack for the duration.  But over 21 completed conflicts, I've averaged 1.85 NS dealt/received.  Perhaps the average GATO member has been far more efficient than I have been. But perhaps it's just as well that such things are lost on such as me, because I do not regret having taken an active part in this conflict in support of an ally. In fact, trying to carry on combat with two such radically different approaches as those used by Baron Aaron [IRON] and Timberland [AI] was well worth the price of admission.

 

However, although the topic is properly GATO's experience of the war, not mine, it sounds like I've had a better time of it than you.

 

Perhaps but it wouldn't surprise me to find most of VE feeling this way.

 

21 is a nice number. I'm guessing more defensive than offensive yeah? I suppose if it took heat off Umb......it works in that sense.

 

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=147284&Extended=1

 

There's my list minus I think 2 that got deleted before deletes were banished. They were of similar nature. I had an absolute blast. Still only made it to 26 in casualties though. FML.

[Secret]

Perhaps but it wouldn't surprise me to find most of VE feeling this way.

 

21 is a nice number. I'm guessing more defensive than offensive yeah? I suppose if it took heat off Umb......it works in that sense.

 

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=147284&Extended=1

 

There's my list minus I think 2 that got deleted before deletes were banished. They were of similar nature. I had an absolute blast. Still only made it to 26 in casualties though. FML.

 

I'm glad to see at-least one nation in GATO fought. I guess congratulations are in order?
 

 

Anyways, I don't particularly condone spying, but this was a pretty good read if not amusing. Watching magicninja backtrack makes it all the more worthwhile. Please tell us more about those 5 nations who didn't fight. Please?

[D34th]

 If going out and getting steamrolled for Umb is what makes you guys smile good for you. I'm happy for you. I hope you get another chance someday if its what you like to do. 

 

I'm not really surprised that GATO wasn't willing to get steamrolled for Umbrella, but I thought GATO had some consideration for their bloc partners:

 

 

The International:  -53.9% cumulative

The Last Remnants: -47.3% NS
Orange Defense Network: -44.7% NS

Global Alliance And Treaty Organization: -17.3% cumulative

Why such disparity? Seems that your bloc partners, unlike you, didn't followed the brilliant strategy of hide in peace mode and I thought that "The most unified bloc in the world" lived as one, and fought as one. Based in the above statistics I start to think that GATO didn't read the Article II of CnG treaty.

[magicninja]

I'm not really surprised that GATO wasn't willing to get steamrolled for Umbrella, but I thought GATO had some consideration for their bloc partners:

 

 

The International:  -53.9% cumulative

The Last Remnants: -47.3% NS
Orange Defense Network: -44.7% NS

Global Alliance And Treaty Organization: -17.3% cumulative

Why such disparity? Seems that your bloc partners, unlike you, didn't followed the brilliant strategy of hide in peace mode and I thought that "The most unified bloc in the world" lived as one, and fought as one. Based in the above statistics I start to think that GATO didn't read the Article II of CnG treaty.

 

ODN and INT got caught out before we knew a strategy like we employed was needed. Had the other side not rushed in and let us plan for it we would have likely went in full out then they should have brought everyone and caught us all. TLR says that most of the damage was from inactives caught out from pm orders. 

[magicninja]

I'm glad to see at-least one nation in GATO fought. I guess congratulations are in order?
 

 

Anyways, I don't particularly condone spying, but this was a pretty good read if not amusing. Watching magicninja backtrack makes it all the more worthwhile. Please tell us more about those 5 nations who didn't fight. Please?

 

There are plenty of GATOans with lines just like that. Some better and only a few worse. To their credit RnR and Legion did catch 4-5 of our guys and drag them down and kept them down. 

 

Show me where I backtracked and where I'm lying about the 5 nations. 

[Dajobo]

The hell with VE. Again I don't owe them anything. They wanted to throw themselves to the dogs and be out of the fight quick that's their choice. I was told by the coalition to plan for a really long war and I did so. Maybe they were told something different.

I have no horse in this race and no desire to dump on anyone but I know for a fact if this was true VE would have been out of this war over a month ago.

Carry one though, I just feel that in fairness that needed to be known.

[Luckao]

Well played, Schattenmann, well played.

[Talon]

I have no horse in this race and no desire to dump on anyone but I know for a fact if this was true VE would have been out of this war over a month ago.

Carry one though, I just feel that in fairness that needed to be known.

 

This 

 

VE have repeatedly gone to the wall, and frankly while I believe that as an alliance they could choose their friends better and sacrifice for someone who actually respects them for it and would reciprocate you can't argue with their commitment.

 

Almost to a man the VE nations I've fought have been aggressive, good fighters with plenty of spirit and coordination. That they are still actively declaring and fighting aggressive wars against such odds is admirable and worthy of more respect than they have been getting in this thread.

[AmbroseIV]

Yeah those numbers show nobody wanted to hit GATO. I thought when we released the 60k nations someone would move to help Legion and RnR...but no one did.

 

Nobody else needed to hit GATO because you weren't applying any consistent pressure. I don't want to criticise you, but seeing you talk it up as if it's a masterstroke in strategic planning... heh. A couple of things you need to understand:

 

 

If you thought people disliked you and wanted to destroy C&G... you read it all wrong. That DoW wasn't about wiping out C&G — people who weren't otherwise tied to NPO/DR, C&G gave them an open door and they pushed through. Then if you take into account how many allies you have on our side, no-one was going to stick their appendage in your eye^# even if it was seriously desired. On top of that, your opponents just spent four of the last 14 months fighting losing wars, so it was silly to assume they would be call in help because none of them could take GATO's top tier one-on-one.

 

 

You just needed to be occupied, and while you might have minimised short-term damage by having fewer wars fought a couple of rounds apart, you also made yourselves far more manageable for us than you should have been* — from what I can gather, your war performance is only because only because you misinterpreted people's intent and didn't want to overcommit, and because your attacks were regularly a bit too late.

 

 

The first part could be interpreted as something good (if you squint), but both parts could be interpreted as something bad — for each person who praises you for being conservative where you had nothing to gain, two people are going attack you for being gutless or sluggish. I think the thread is a bit unfair, but you shouldn't try to praise yourself here when GATO can be thought of as underperforming.

 

 

[spoiler]*You came into the war with 34 nations above 80k NS. You looked to take advantage of that against GOD and Invicta who were also engaged against ODN, INT, MK and others for the first couple of rounds of the war. Good, work with what you've got.

 

R&R started the war with 23 nations above 80k NS and we spent the first 2-3 rounds fighting ODN, INT, VE, MW, MK and Deinos before we had any defensive wars against GATO. When TimLee, Daedalus and others started hitting us, we were down to 15 nations above 80k NS. One third of our 'top tier' was gone before GATO declared on Legion and started to assign R&R targets. You were too slow — even just one round earlier and you would have put more pressure on our attacking nations and helped out a few other people on your side.

 

HB (we won't count Hooligans and EvU) joined the war two weeks later, at a time when they had nothing to gain. They had their nations above 80k NS ready to go, and between two of you there were 40... but by that stage we only had 7 nations in the same range. Did you really need to take ~4:1 odds up to ~6:1 odds, or did HB join for the privilege of sitting in peace mode for 4-5 weeks until peace is worked out and they're required to surrender? Either way, GATO attacks dropped off and HB were too slow, on top of only declaring a few wars in fear of a counter — they should have attacked a week or two earlier 'n twisted the screws and maybe someone would have hit them then, but as it was we didn't have any need.

 

 

R&R is now down to two nations above 80k NS, while HB has nine and GATO has 18. In the last month of war, HB and GATO have lost 13 nations in that range to R&R's five — GATO are still fighting Legion too, granted, but the point is... you've always had the edge on your opponents in that bracket and it would have been harder to deal with if you didn't just trickle them out.

 

 

So, you weren't quite negligible, but you weren't too dangerous either... and people just dealt with what you threw at them.[/spoiler]

 

 

^#Family friendly :|

Edited March 26, 2013 by AmbroseIV
Inappropriate language

[Commander shepard]

ODN and INT got caught out before we knew a strategy like we employed was needed. 

 

 

There is no amazing strategy. you went into peacemode and then came out when most of the fighting was done.

Your allies fought to break down your enemies, you did not do much.

 

You strategy is akin to your team bringing a football up the pitch doing a good performance to avoid tackles and losing the ball and then you(GATO) tapping the ball into the net despite giving no support to the team, then claiming that you're(GATO) brilliant.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Commander shepard

[Micheal Malone]

I read this entire thread and all I got was a headache.

 

 

And maybe rabies from the frothing rants of a few people...

[Garion]

Its interesting that you say this, because in the 2nd round of my wars, I "fought" your currently largest nation Arkios, and he spent the first 3 days of our war complaining about how it was unfair that I attacked him after he hit one of our guys.  After that, he stopped fighting all together.  And it looks like he hasn't done anything since then, besides rebuy infra.

 

So as terrible as GATO is, (and they are) don't think for a second your mates over in RnR are any better.

 

So what? Every single alliance gets guys like him. Hell, you have a former R&R member in your ranks who was kicked out for surrendering in a war... I never said we have the best warriors around: I said nobody complained (and I was obviously referring to our boards): if he had done so he would have been told to stiffen his resolve.

There's a difference between not showing up and showing up in an average or even poor form.

 

 

Of
course it is. I never said anything about VE until they decided to come
over here and whine about whatever it is they are crying about. Like I
said we should have brought them out way earlier but I was trying to
work within the coalition and we all simply argued details in circles
about releasing lower tiers. It was the only part of the whole war I
thought we all could have done better with especially after seeing how
easily we handled RnR and Legion after the release had we done it 3
weeks ago we could have had most of our alliance fighting by now. Maybe
that's what I get for being a team player.  

 

Out of curiosity, if you were having such an easy time with R&R etc., why calling in HB-Hooligans-EvU on us?

[Frederico Rodriguez]

The fact that some of your members either didn't want to fight or were sloppy/inactive is part of it. 

 

Nobody "didn't want to fight". So you can forget about that being a "fact". Inactivity is what it is, we love our members, even if they're very busy with non-CN things.

 

The other part of it is that such a large amount weren't even asked to fight. 

 

Magic had a tier-war tactic from the beginning, GATO members knew that and absolutely respected the decision, particularly when trying to predict how long the conflict would go for from the very beginning, the tactic was about a very long-haul type battle, take down each tier one at a time. Whether it was successful or a good idea or not you can debate all you want, it doesn't really interest me. Of course in hindsight the battle was rather short, which is a shame for nations like myself.

 

Put those two together and whether it's down to refusal to fight, unwillingness to fight, inactivity or piss-poor organisation

 

There wasn't a refusal to fight on the membership's part. There wasn't an unwillingness to fight on the membership's part. GATOans love being able to get out of PM and fight. That is the point of CN after all. But we also had to balance that with our tactics of trying to last the long haul and actually fight as best we possibly can, which meant delayed and for some of us very long delayed war time action. It really is as simple as that. People will try to spin that with absurd BS, but rational reasonable minds are nothing more than a rarity when it comes to objectively viewing things on here.  Yes, the war didn't go nearly as long as expected, such is the life of an unpredictable war. There was no refusal, the organisation was fine, it's simply just down to a debate on our tactics used. No matter how many times our opposition attempt to coax us into running kamikaze style into an ambush, it simply will not happen, sorry to disappoint.

 

 

The fact remains that GATO have not, compared to most other alliances, contributed a great deal to this coalition's war effort or taken much damage for the cause. Now there's nothing necessarily wrong with that, I imagine it was the plan from the start, but that fact remains and is why when GATO start getting posts of support and praise in this thread for being involved in a beatdown and taking a lot for their allies that people will disgaree with that.

GATO acted in consideration to all its allies and its obligations, if that means not playing as big a part in the war, then I guess that's that. If the coalition want to pat GATO on the back, that's their prerogative.

 

 

Unless you think that GATO have been involved in a beatdown and have gone out of their way to make a difference?

 

I haven't put forward an opinion on the actual war effort itself, I just fight and do my thing so I won't be drawn into any of that, mostly because I don't put much time to study the absolute going ons in the war in general, sorry. Overall, the biggest discontent for me is stating absolute inaccuracies as facts, being corrected and then continually stating those inaccuracies as facts. You really do need to filter out all the non-GATOans posting crap here to be able to understand what is going on in GATO. GATO is always its own harshest critic, it's part of the feedback loop that is democracy, so we really have no issue making concessions on valid criticisms. The problem lies with the fluff.

[Hob Dobson]

Perhaps but it wouldn't surprise me to find most of VE feeling this way.

 

21 is a nice number. I'm guessing more defensive than offensive yeah? I suppose if it took heat off Umb......it works in that sense.

 

I could have sworn the defensive outweighed the offensive by a greater margin, but unless I've missed somebody, 11 defensive and 10 offensive, with my current engagements 2 and 2.  Granted, it's indirect, but I would hope a few resources were directed down instead of up at Umbrella, and not at GOONS or Deinos instead (or TOP, ODN, or MK for that matter)

 

 

http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=147284&Extended=1

 

There's my list minus I think 2 that got deleted before deletes were banished. They were of similar nature. I had an absolute blast. Still only made it to 26 in casualties though. FML.

 

I'm way, way behind that!  Not as far behind as I was, but that's how wars work.

[Pingu]

Frederico, you shouldn't dismiss this as fluff. This is Schatt's life work. It's all he's got. Without his wild fantasies about C&G, he'd have no reason to get up in the morning. It is unkind to mock the afflicted.

[Rhizoctonia]

I'm late to this party, and though I don't always see eye to eye with Shatt's posts, this was truely comical to read, well done.

[Mr Vicarious]

In the end it was 5 people above 80k that didn't come out to fight out of about 40........ It was in the days after I gave the order where people staggered out like hobos but once we got into it we were fine. I wasn't angry that they didn't come out...I was angry they didn't come out when I said to. Most did come out in their own good time. Most stating excuses like I was busy. Like I said look at Legion and RnR up top. 

With an average warchest below 650 mil, and a median warchest of ~630 mil, GATO between 30k and 80K wasn't going to fight for long anyways.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Mr Vicarious