Never bring an Umbrella to a gun fight

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1358634456' post='3080282']
Except I'm not parroting you at all.

What you're saying is that it's Ai or its allies fault that Umbrella can no longer get away with being complete my idols. Umbrella can no longer wantonly engage in CB-less wars with its allies or get away with what it attempted to here. This is a political reality that you would be better suited addressing towards Umbrella, and not the holders of a CB you admit is completely valid.
[/quote]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1358636868' post='3080328']
LOL at you insulting other people's grammar. Pot meet kettle. Also, Umbrella didn't destroy MHA's credibility. You did. Nothing will ever change that so stop being butthurt.
[/quote]

It's a word filter, moron.

Also what you replied to has absolutely nothing to do with what you said.

Why are you allowed to post? It's like you're sitting in an irc channel with a bunch of people and your idea of being funny is attempting to say the most outrageously stupid thing you can think of in an attempt to get a rise out of someone.

Hilarious.

Edited January 20, 2013 by IYIyTh

[Branimir]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1358639287' post='3080363']And that's where we disagree. I don't see Umbrella's application of their policy as being inherently wrong because it was in conflict with another party's application of their policy.[/quote]
We dont disagree, as much as we obviously are not communicating.

You made a statement how Umb "BIBA" policy can not be taken as inherently wrong.

I explained quite clearly that it can be, due to the fact that it inherently comes with the consequence of enabling more damage for the injured alliance.
That is wrong and that is an irrefutable fact.

There is a reason why this world does not operate that way when in regards to rogues. Why it has been as such for 7 years now. Why Umbs policy is so unique and isolated.

Its because its wrong to others during rogue attacks.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Branimir

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1358607455' post='3079928']
~all ex-heg come out to play, hip-hip hip-hip hooray!~
[/quote]
This is just hilarious considering Umbrella was a part of that hegemony for a time. Really this is 4 year old propoganda attempting to bring back old fears. Its very poor.

[quote name='Jake Liebenow' timestamp='1358614654' post='3079996']
Ya know, you guys coulda went and helped out Umbrella with their Blood In Blood Out pact and coordinated to take out Mo9P. But clearly the idea of working together against a rogue, or really any sort of conscious thought, was never something to be expected from this side.
[/quote]
Diplomacy goes both ways. Respect needs to be had on both sides. Umbrella could have come to us and said hey look this is what we have. AFAIK nothing like that was ever done. When I questioned a .gov member of Umbrella he said he was on a tech raid. It would be pretty simply to say hey were fullfilling a policy but no mention was ever made of BIBO and untill this thread i had never heard of it.

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1358616928' post='3080014']
Will TPF actually fight or are you going to keep drooling all over the place?



Brehon is a manipulative liar? Say it ain't so.



Holy !@#$ are you serious? This is the most ridiculous argument I have ever read, this week. What act of aggression did Umbrella perpetrate? Hint: None.



And risk their coalition splintering further? No way man. They've been so desperate for any reason to go to war and now they finally manufactured one. In this case had they adhered to the normal protocol with regards to rogues that would have meant an amicable solution being found. That solution wouldn't work with DR's and NPO's !@#$%^&* propaganda about the evil Doom House oppressors and they know it.
[/quote]
Marx i suggest you read the last thing I quote as puppets states he was feeding info back to DH. Which is spying and kinda brings more validity to the accusastions that Umbrella was an active participant.

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358629111' post='3080215']
Lets be perfectly clear.... I have no problem with this CB... with this war.. if I were AI, id have done EXACTLY the same thing. But, my friend, when you went a round of wars as AI did , without DoWing MK... or hitting the lone guy on FOK... or DoWing Dark Templar for doing EXACTLY this same thing.... you cannot run in on the moral high ground and claim outrage. I maintained from day 1.... and Brehon and a few others can attest to this... after the 1st rounds incident, AI should have announced that they considered his slots their slots. However, when you ignore something one week, then act on it a 2nd week, when a completely different party is the violator, it does NOT give you a moral high ground, it gives you what everyone knew everyone was waiting on.. something that would fly with their allies. Nothing more, nothing less.
[/quote]
Fair enough Rush but I believe private channels were used to voice AIs displeasure at those slots being taken.

[quote name='Masterof9puppets' timestamp='1358635972' post='3080313']
Everything that this man has said is the absolute truth. Take note of it.




There are only so many times that I can correct you and others on this before just realizing that you have an extra chromosome to deal with.
I went rogue on December 25th. After posting my rogue/quitting/dow thread, three nations declared on me. FOK, MK Applicant, & DT. You'll notice that none of those alliances are named Umbrella.

After that single round of war, I slipped into peace mode because I could- since the raiders broke my stagger. If AI was on top of their game, I'm sure they could have slipped someone in to DoW me at update.

I then spent 12 days rebuying my nukes, and then left peace mode. Before I declared my new set of wars, I logged onto IRC and said that I was out of peace mode, and declaring in minutes. Three Umbrella members then declared on me. I proceeded to declare my wars, and blow my entire 4.5 bil warchest. As JoshuaR stated, this should be proof enough that I'm out after this round, so stop whining that the stagger was broken- it is irrelevant.

[b]During this time, I also fed 2 AI intel spy ops per day to Doomhouse. They have most of the upper tier now.[/b]

When I say "this was the plan", I mean that this was [i]my[/i] plan, not Umbrellas. My plan was to start this war, and I succeeded. Sorry dudes, you know you all wanted it.
[/quote]

So here we see that Puppets planned to start a war by playing tensions. Thing I see here is that now our claims that Umbrella was in on it have been confirmed or at least given more credibility as DH was fed spy reports on our upper tier. Seems like the "paranoia" that marx claims we have is actually a good solid gut feeling. Otherwise DH could have easily come to us and said hey hes feeding us spy reports. ( I know it would never happen on either side but for arguments sake.) Then going back through the Nuke reports if each Rogue is required to eat six nukes wouldnt that have been fullfilled in the first round unless they have to be umbrella nukes then why is there not a single Umbrella nuke launched. While BIBO may be policy and I cant argue yes or no but if its policy then all three of the nations attacking puppets are not doing their diligent duty in fullfilling the obligation.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Buds The Man

[Caliph]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1358640002' post='3080373']
We dont disagree, as much as we obviously are not communicating.

You made a statement how Umb "BIBA" policy can not be taken as inherently wrong.

I explained quite clearly that it can be, due to the fact that it inherently comes with the consequence of enabling more damage for the injured alliance.
That is wrong and that is a irrefutable fact.

There is a reason why this world does not operate that way when in regards to rogues. Why it has been as such for 7 years now. Why Umbs policy is so unique and isolated.

Its because its wrong to others during rogue attacks.
[/quote]And this is where we are not communicating, since Umbrella taking 3 slots prevents AI from taking 3 more slots which means damage is spread out to Umbrella as well as AI instead lf just on AI, so AI takes less over all damage, thus invalidating your claim that this move hurts AI more.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1358638372' post='3080347']
Fact: In my 6 years (ugh) in the Cyberverse, arguing about a CB has never made the other side say "My bad. Peace now?" You've had war declared against you because someone wanted to fight you. The reason given is rarely the actual reason. You've all been around long enough to know that too.
[/quote]

The regularity with which I agree with you these days is utterly alarming. Stop it.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1358635009' post='3080294']
It's also funny watching DH supporters argue over a CB.
[/quote]
When the opposition asserts the moral high ground, they should not be shocked to find us knocking them off of it. This Titanic Coalition is no better than those they declare a crusade against. History has shown this. The future will reaffirm it.

I recall in the Great War Era how when a nation went rogue from an alliance, it was the responsibility of a civilized alliance to engage their wayward brother and absorb the damage they might cause to other states. In this way, roguery was discouraged and rendered less effective. Today, unfortunately, it appears Anarchy Inc. and its allies have decided it is not the responsibility of civilized alliances, but rather actionable [i]justa causa[/i] for war. And they have done so in the most decidedly inconsistent of ways: when it was three alliances "guilty" of attacking a rogue, they stayed their guns. When it was only Umbrella, and after one of Umb's proximate allies had succumbed to internal tensions, they found the time was ripe and made war.

If you wish to make war, then make war. Few can truly object, especially among those of us who have most aggressively pursued the politics of self-interest and [i]realpolitik[/i]. But do not dress yourselves in the garb of some "just war". You do not act out of love, or to sow greater peace. You act to advance your interests, as you always have. You act as I would act, and when you look in the mirror you will see me looking back. You can lie to yourselves, and to the gullible, preaching fear while plotting holocaust, but the truth is there.

Cheer yourselves while you can. The nukes will soon fly. And when the infra is scorched and there is naught but tech and warchests, you'll wonder how the hell you're going to keep this up. I'd pray for luck on your SDIs.

Or you can continue under the delusion that your ship is unsinkable. That this is it! The mKarma prophecy come at last! Doomedhouse to set the world free! I hope you don't really believe that; I desire a competent foe. I've found much success chiefly because I've always recognized that I'm only ever one error from failure, an inch from defeat, no matter how seemingly powerful or secure. No war is done or won until the ink on the terms is dry. And we're a long, long way from any ink, assuming you have the stomach to see this through. The opportunity cost on this is so very high, after all...

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1358640002' post='3080373']
We dont disagree, as much as we obviously are not communicating.

You made a statement how Umb "BIBA" policy can not be taken as inherently wrong.

I explained quite clearly that it can be, due to the fact that it inherently comes with the consequence of enabling more damage for the injured alliance.
That is wrong and that is a irrefutable fact.[/quote]

You ignored the rest of my post that demonstrated quite clearly why it's not.

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1358640002' post='3080373']
There is a reason why this world does not operate that way when in regards to rogues. Why it has been as such for 7 years now. Why Umbs policy is so unique and isolated.

Its because its wrong to others during rogue attacks.
[/quote]

There's actually been no applicable precedent here.

Either way you can rephrase what you've already said, and I can do the same. But like I said we're probably going to have to agree to disagree because we're both stubborn and neither of us will budge on this.

[Masterof9puppets]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1358640113' post='3080376']
So here we see that Puppets planned to start a war by playing tensions. Thing I see here is that now our claims that Umbrella was in on it have been confirmed or at least given more credibility as DH was fed spy reports on our upper tier. Seems like the "paranoia" that marx claims we have is actually a good solid gut feeling. Otherwise DH could have easily come to us and said hey hes feeding us spy reports. ( I know it would never happen on either side but for arguments sake.) Then going back through the Nuke reports if each Rogue is required to eat six nukes wouldnt that have been fullfilled in the first round unless they have to be umbrella nukes then why is there not a single Umbrella nuke launched. While BIBO may be policy and I cant argue yes or no but if its policy then all three of the nations attacking puppets are not doing their diligent duty in fullfilling the obligation.
[/quote]

Bud :>

For the record, DH did not ask for any spy ops. I made it known quite early on in my first round of wars (somewhere in the Kronos DoW thread) that I was collecting spy ops and would be publishing them or sending them along. But yes, you were correct- that was mostly to raise tensions.

BIBO policy is that Umbrella has to be the ones doing the nuking. Lusitan has sent a few nukes my direction, Alterego has taken a few as well- but those were all early in the day iirc, I'm assuming before Lusi had a chance to send his own. For what it's worth, Lusitan's nukes hurt a lot more.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Masterof9puppets

[Perceus]

o/ NATO, and our allies in this conflict, to victory we march!

[Buds The Man]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1358640141' post='3080377']
And this is where we are not communicating, since Umbrella taking 3 slots prevents AI from taking 3 more slots which means damage is spread out to Umbrella as well as AI instead lf just on AI, so AI takes less over all damage, thus invalidating your claim that this move hurts AI more.
[/quote]
edited Luisatan is nuking.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Buds The Man

[Branimir]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1358640141' post='3080377']And this is where we are not communicating, since Umbrella taking 3 slots prevents AI from taking 3 more slots which means damage is spread out to Umbrella as well as AI instead lf just on AI, so AI takes less over all damage, thus invalidating your claim that this move hurts AI more.[/quote]
It allows a rogue to go into peace mode to restock on nukes, as well as it allows the rogue ability for more pick and choosing of nations to hit beyond the point where he should have. As "BIBO" lasts for a round usually, the second time around Umb isn't actually sharing the damage any longer.

Coupled with diplomatic doors being closed from you on this, for clarifications and talks of possible implementation with foreign alliances, this is problematic. Why its not wide spread.

But yes, we have war now and yes lets have fun. So yes, thats all ill have to say on it.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Branimir

[Brehon]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1358602021' post='3079868']
A couple of months ago I said that NPO were a terrible ally to GATO because they would jump at a chance to to start a war with CnG allies. Brehon angrily denied it, but hey, it's two months later and I'm right and he's wrong.
[/quote]

I see Laslo. Very interesting comment.

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1358640879' post='3080386']
You ignored the rest of my post that demonstrated quite clearly why it's not.



There's actually been no applicable precedent here.

Either way you can rephrase what you've already said, and I can do the same. But like I said we're probably going to have to agree to disagree because we're both stubborn and neither of us will budge on this.
[/quote]

It's not true that there is no applicable precedent. When I led my crappy little micro named FINAL... In the same week, we got an applicant who had ragequit GGA. As he was on our applicant AA, GGA gov came to my crappy little micro and forbade... literally forbade me from accepting him because they had a "GGA for life" policy, which is very comparable to BIBO. A few days later.. a 2nd GGA nation went to a 1 man AA and hit our applicant (settling some personal vendetta and whatnot)... at that time.. GGA gov AGAIN came to me.. and forbade me from hitting the guy hitting our applicant. So the very notion that rogues have been handled in a singular way for 7 years is absurd. Lets let the facts be what they are. This war was needed... in order to sell certain allies, a certain level of CB was 1st needed. This satisfied that, and here we are. Enough of this precedent BS.

Edit: not sure why I quoted just SirWilliam.. I meant to quote both he and Branimir. Blah, forum fail.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Rush Sykes

[pezstar]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358640515' post='3080381']
The regularity with which I agree with you these days is utterly alarming. Stop it.
[/quote]

I think we've both lost our patience with some of this.

[Masterof9puppets]

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1358641168' post='3080394']
I see Laslo. Very interesting comment.
[/quote]

Brehon never lies.

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1358641141' post='3080393']
It allows a rogue to go into peace mode to restock on nukes, as well as it allows the rogue ability for more pick and choosing of nations to hit beyond the point where he should have. As "BIBO" lasts for a round usually, the second time around Umb isn't actually sharing the damage any longer.
[/quote]

Stop being an idiot and start paying attention to dozens of times that it's been mentioned that I'm not continuing my part in this war after this round expires. Aka, not rebuying nukes or declaring a new set of wars.

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1358641041' post='3080391']
that would be very true if Puppets were nuking back but not a single nuke has flown or been attempted by puppets or umbrella. I dont know about GAs as i cant see those but if massive damage was the goal then Umbrella is falling way short and is not following there own internal policy
[/quote]

I simply don't have any nukes at all, not that I would waste any on Umbrella. Not that I would waste any on AI counters if applicable. I already went over this in roguing 101 in the Kronos DoW thread.

[The Big Bad]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358641189' post='3080396']
It's not true that there is no applicable precedent. When I led my crappy little micro named FINAL... In the same week, we got an applicant who had ragequit GGA. As he was on our applicant AA, GGA gov came to my crappy little micro and forbade... literally forbade me from accepting him because they had a "GGA for life" policy, which is very comparable to BIBO. A few days later.. a 2nd GGA nation went to a 1 man AA and hit our applicant (settling some personal vendetta and whatnot)... at that time.. GGA gov AGAIN came to me.. and forbade me from hitting the guy hitting our applicant. So the very notion that rogues have been handled in a singular way for 7 years is absurd. Lets let the facts be what they are. This war was needed... in order to sell certain allies, a certain level of CB was 1st needed. This satisfied that, and here we are. Enough of this precedent BS.

Edit: not sure why I quoted just SirWilliam.. I meant to quote both he and Branimir. Blah, forum fail.
[/quote]

Lumping Umbrella with GGA? That has got to sting, no matter how correct you are in what your saying.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Buds The Man' timestamp='1358640113' post='3080376']


So here we see that Puppets planned to start a war by playing tensions. Thing I see here is that now our claims that Umbrella was in on it have been confirmed or at least given more credibility as DH was fed spy reports on our upper tier. Seems like the "paranoia" that marx claims we have is actually a good solid gut feeling. Otherwise DH could have easily come to us and said hey hes feeding us spy reports. ( I know it would never happen on either side but for arguments sake.) Then going back through the Nuke reports if each Rogue is required to eat six nukes wouldnt that have been fullfilled in the first round unless they have to be umbrella nukes then why is there not a single Umbrella nuke launched. While BIBO may be policy and I cant argue yes or no but if its policy then all three of the nations attacking puppets are not doing their diligent duty in fullfilling the obligation.
[/quote]

But...but no one in the DH sphere would ever go to war over someone on the other side accepting spied info.....

[Branimir]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1358641284' post='3080399']I think we've both lost our patience with some of this. [/quote]
Just also to say one thing.

Although I am finished with the issue, as stated in my previous post, I just want to say that you dont actually need to read stuff that do not interest you.
Just saying.

I didn't post or follow a thread in ages, and I felt to be some active. So I entertained myself with a certain exchange. You can just skim it.

btw. My apologies for making it sound that a policy in argument from Umb is the only one in history. There was one else. One. Else. I wanted to highlight the rather high rarity of it, which I didn't express the best way.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Masterof9puppets' timestamp='1358641411' post='3080400']

Stop being an idiot and start paying attention to dozens of times that it's been mentioned that I'm not continuing my part in this war after this round expires. Aka, not rebuying nukes or declaring a new set of wars.

[/quote]

Then how did it benefit you for UMB taking your slots as you stated earlier?

[Commander shepard]

[size=4][quote name='JoshuaR' timestamp='1358634086' post='3080274'][/size]

[/quote]

[size=4]So the line is that Masterofpuppets played Umbrella by making them take his defensive slots as he was going to attack AI nations using his offensive slots putting him in 6 wars and blown the stagger.[/size]
It is frightful that Umbrella was stupid enough to engage in this action with a rogue, BIBO is bad excuse and really someone should ram it up your butt to let you know that.
And to not contact relevant parties at AI, incompetence at best, malicious intend at worse.

So this guy mislead the silly Umbrella into an action without thinking twice.
But that's ok because he said he was going to quit.
A liar is going to lie and you would have gave him another chance to enter peacemode.
[size=4]And some of the people have done this slot stealing in the past with "malicious" intend, one of which attacked him(I think).[/size]
Smells fishy....

Edited January 20, 2013 by Commander shepard

[pezstar]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1358641808' post='3080409']
Just also to say one thing.

Although I am finished with the issue, as stated in my previous post, I just want to say that you dont actually need to read stuff that do not interest you.
Just saying.

I didn't post or follow a thread in ages, and I felt to be some active. So I entertained myself with a certain exchange. You can just skim it.

btw. My apologies for making it sound that a policy in argument from Umb is the only one in history. There was one else. One. Else. I wanted to highlight the rather high rarity of it, which I didn't express the best way.
[/quote]

You've mistaken lack of patience with lack of interest. The two words are not synonyms.

[Beauty]

Umbrella got F***rolled

[Masterof9puppets]

[quote name='Commander shepard' timestamp='1358641957' post='3080411']
So the line is that Masterofpuppets played Umbrella by making them take his defensive slots as he was going to attack AI nations using his offensive slots putting him in 6 wars and blown the stagger.
It is frightful that Umbrella was stupid enough to engage in this action with a rogue, BIBO is bad excuse and really someone should ram it up your butt to let you know that.
And to not contact relevant parties at AI, incompetence at best, malicious intend at worse.

So this guy mislead the silly Umbrella into an action without thinking twice.
But that's ok because he said he was going to quit.
A liar is going to lie and you would have gave him another chance to enter peacemode.
[size=4]And some of the people have done this slot stealing in the past with a "malicious" intend, one of which attacked him(I think).
Smells fishy....
[/quote]

I didn't play Umbrella or make them do anything. Also, read the goddamn topic if you're going to make dumb posts. I recognize that it's 50 pages, but damn you sound like an idiot.

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1358641891' post='3080410']
Then how did it benefit you for UMB taking your slots as you stated earlier?
[/quote]

They declared before I rebought. AI would have declared after I rebought. Instead of fighting 3 75kns nations and 3 200k ns nations, I am fighting 6 75k-100k nations. And winning due to that. Also, the two parties obviously aren't coordinating with each other.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Masterof9puppets

[SpacingOutMan]

Wait... people are still fighting about whether or not this war is justified? lolololololololol You guys are too funny.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Rush Sykes' timestamp='1358641189' post='3080396']
It's not true that there is no applicable precedent.

[...]

So the very notion that rogues have been handled in a singular way for 7 years is absurd.
[/quote]

I'm so confused - you seem to be simultaneously disagreeing and agreeing with me.

Either way, I'm following Comrade Branimir's lead and recusing myself. I've made my point - that justifying the CB is silly since you've gotten what you wanted. No point now for me to debate it one way or the other.