A Brief Announcement from Umbrella

[Lord Caparo]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333587613' post='2948446']
But you aren't reimbursing for aid given. You're replacing the losses that aid caused (through continued military buildup and whatnot), and further admitting fault, that your alliance was wrong. If you don't think you were wrong, you go to war over it, which Mongols chose to do. They asked their allies in Kaskus to come in, which is up to them, and that's cool that Kaskus honored the treaty, just the same way that it's cool Umbrella is helping GOONS out with some higher-ranger targets. It's really not a subject of debate here. The majority of complaints I'm seeing are coming from the peanut gallery. It appears to me that Kaskus and Mongols are enjoying the war. Let them enjoy it.
[/quote]

Are you !@#$@#$ stupid?

Its been stated [u][b]MANY[/b][/u] times that MONGOLS asked Kaskus to stay out of the war.

GOONs $%&@ed around saying they were using Mongols to get to us, therefore we gave them what they wanted, by hey, look what happened.

Oh yes, GOONs $%&@ed up and made a !@#$storm and then when we were winning arguments commented on our lack of English skills.

Very nice ally arent they? but then again everytime an ally of Europa wants to have any fun you guys step in and stop it, remember When Canik, Spaarlaamp and i wanted to raid a nice unprotected AA? and you shot it down?

Edited April 5, 2012 by Lord Caparo

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1333588043' post='2948447']
Are you !@#$@#$ stupid?

Its been stated [u][b]MANY[/b][/u] times that MONGOLS asked Kaskus to stay out of the war.

GOONs $%&@ed around saying they were using Mongols to get to us, therefore we gave them what they wanted, by hey, look what happened.

Oh yes, GOONs $%&@ed up and made a !@#$storm and then when we were winning arguments commented on our lack of English skills.

Very nice ally arent they? but then again everytime an ally of Europa wants to have any fun you guys step in and stop it, remember When Canik, Spaarlaamp and i wanted to raid a nice unprotected AA? and you shot it down?
[/quote]


My point wasn't that Mongols asked Kaskus to enter. My point was that Kaskus was honoring a treaty. I was defending you, calm yourself.

I also don't recall the raiding of an AA discussion, unless of course you're referring to when they wanted to raid a former Europa protectorate, something that I didn't think was a good idea because it's pretty poor form to raid a former protectorate.

[Lord Caparo]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333588826' post='2948455']
My point wasn't that Mongols asked Kaskus to enter. My point was that Kaskus was honoring a treaty. I was defending you, calm yourself.

I also don't recall the raiding of an AA discussion, unless of course you're referring to when they wanted to raid a former Europa protectorate, something that I didn't think was a good idea because it's pretty poor form to raid a former protectorate.
[/quote]

But you still said that MONGOLS asked us to come in. [quote]They asked their allies in Kaskus to come in[/quote], therefore you are an idiot since everyone has read that MONGOLS requested us to stay out.


And about the raid? they were your protectorate, not a BFF protectorate and therefore, Open season.

[Canik]

[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1333588043' post='2948447']
Are you !@#$@#$ stupid?

Its been stated [u][b]MANY[/b][/u] times that MONGOLS asked Kaskus to stay out of the war.

GOONs $%&@ed around saying they were using Mongols to get to us, therefore we gave them what they wanted, by hey, look what happened.

Oh yes, GOONs $%&@ed up and made a !@#$storm and then when we were winning arguments commented on our lack of English skills.

Very nice ally arent they? but then again everytime an ally of Europa wants to have any fun you guys step in and stop it, remember When Canik, Spaarlaamp and i wanted to raid a nice unprotected AA? and you shot it down?
[/quote]

I think Chax had some actual reason not to, otherwise I probably would've continued with the attack anyway. I don't remember the details tho.

I don't like you two arguing can we please try to stay respectful? You're both good allies and generally honorable.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1333589001' post='2948458']
But you still said that MONGOLS asked us to come in. , therefore you are an idiot since everyone has read that MONGOLS requested us to stay out.


And about the raid? they were your protectorate, not a BFF protectorate and therefore, Open season.
[/quote]

Right, then you weren't honoring a treaty with Mongols and were, in fact, declaring an aggressive war against GOONS, in which case they can ask for as much money as they want in reps from you since you declared aggressively against them.

It doesn't matter that they weren't a BFF protectorate. They were a former protectorate of ours, and I wasn't about to watch you guys crush them up into a fine powder and snort them, which I know you were more than capable of doing.



[quote name='Canik' timestamp='1333589121' post='2948459']
I don't like you two arguing can we please try to stay respectful? You're both good allies and generally honorable.
[/quote]


To be perfectly fair, I'm being absolutely respectful.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Ernesto Che Guevara

[Kzoppistan]

Lines being drawn.

[Lord Caparo]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333589190' post='2948461']
Right, then you weren't honoring a treaty with Mongols and were, in fact, declaring an aggressive war against GOONS, in which case they can ask for as much money as they want in reps from you since you declared aggressively against them.

It doesn't matter that they weren't a BFF protectorate. They were a former protectorate of ours, and I wasn't about to watch you guys crush them up into a fine powder and snort them, which I know you were more than capable of doing.
[/quote]

You dont get it do you? There is a MDoAP sitting there between Mongols and Kaskus, Mongols requests us to not fight GOONs as it would destroy us both. We went, no way bro you're our friend, we wont leave you hanging, we are obligated to help you out and so we did!

We are tech raiders, we dont fight back until they do, and thats when we grind them.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Lord Caparo

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1333589371' post='2948464']
You dont get it do you? There is a MDoAP sitting there between Mongols and Kaskus, Mongols requests us to not fight GOONs as it would destroy us both. We went, no way bro you're our friend, we wont leave you hanging, we are obligated to help you out and so we did!

We are tech raiders, we dont fight back until they do, and thats when we grind them.
[/quote]

Then that's great, you helped an ally out in their darkest hour and I respect that a lot. However, you can't go off and say that you were entering based on a legality, because the legality ends when they don't ask you to enter.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333587613' post='2948446']
But you aren't reimbursing for aid given. You're replacing the losses that aid caused (through continued military buildup and whatnot), and further admitting fault, that your alliance was wrong.
[/quote]

Which is just silly anyway. Losses? From a nation that was already getting it 3:1? What kind of "raider" sees losses there, instead of an extra $3mil in profit?

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333589673' post='2948466']
Then that's great, you helped an ally out in their darkest hour and I respect that a lot. However, you can't go off and say that you were entering based on a legality, because the legality ends when they don't ask you to enter.
[/quote]

They actually can. There's never been a consensus on whether treaties are always active, or only active when requested by one party. I've always belonged to the former, so the minute Mongol's were declared on, I considered Kaskus obligated to defend them. I don't think that's an uncommon opinion, either.

I understand what you're trying to do, equivocate Umbrella coming in optionally to back up GOONS in an offensive war when they already had a large margin of advantage, with Kaskus walking into a sure loss to defend their allies, but it really just makes you look silly.

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1333589994' post='2948472']
They actually can. There's never been a consensus on whether treaties are always active, or only active when requested by one party. I've always belonged to the former, so the minute Mongol's were declared on, I considered Kaskus obligated to defend them. I don't think that's an uncommon opinion, either.

I understand what you're trying to do, equivocate Umbrella coming in optionally to back up GOONS in an offensive war when they already had a large margin of advantage, with Kaskus walking into a sure loss to defend their allies, but it really just makes you look silly.
[/quote]

And I'd agree with you, but does the treaty remain active when one party wishes it not remain active? That sort of black and white thinking gets a lot of innocent alliances pummeled for nothing.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333590389' post='2948476']
And I'd agree with you, but does the treaty remain active when one party wishes it not remain active? That sort of black and white thinking gets a lot of innocent alliances pummeled for nothing.
[/quote]
An alliance getting pummeled to honor a treaty isn't for nothing, they have their honor in tact regardless of how hard they get hit in response. As the quote goes "A coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave die but once."

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333590389' post='2948476']
And I'd agree with you, but does the treaty remain active when one party wishes it not remain active? That sort of black and white thinking gets a lot of innocent alliances pummeled for nothing.
[/quote]

Personally I think that if a.treaty partner askes their ally(s) to stay out of the war just so they don't have to worry about getting rolled alongside them then the mandatory turns into an option for said ally.

I swear I remember reading a thread like this during the upn, legion wars few months back

[Xiphosis]

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333590389' post='2948476']
And I'd agree with you, but does the treaty remain active when one party wishes it not remain active? That sort of black and white thinking gets a lot of innocent alliances pummeled for nothing.
[/quote]

Why wouldn't it remain active? Some people add clauses regarding activation and make it explicit, and I think in lieu of that, legally speaking, I'm correct here. If it's not in the contract, then yes, regardless of what the other partner says you are legally obligated to help. The treaty contains all the parameters for the conduct of business between the two, assuming stipulations on it after the fact isn't valid logically.

As for innocent alliances getting pummeled for no reason, we're agreed, that is indeed what this is.

[mattski133]

[quote name='Lord Caparo' timestamp='1333588043' post='2948447']
GOONs $%&@ed around saying they were using Mongols to get to us, therefore we gave them what they wanted, by hey, look what happened.
[/quote]

You keep saying that. Where did we specifically say we wanted to destroy Kaskus independent of you defending the MONGOLS? You didn't even have a treaty we could view when the MONGOLS were in their first negotiations with us. You don't make any sense. The only reason we are fighting is because you posted a treaty on the spot and attacked us!

Now, if you want to say that we would like a shot at most micro's, I believe some GOONS did say that. Just like some GOONS said they would like a shot at Valhalla. I think you'll find the actual percentage of total GOONS that wanted either of those things to be around 1%.

[quote name='Ernesto Che Guevara' timestamp='1333589673' post='2948466']
Then that's great, you helped an ally out in their darkest hour and I respect that a lot. However, you can't go off and say that you were entering based on a legality, because the legality ends when they don't ask you to enter.
[/quote]

Their darkest hour? They purposely aided our raid targets fully aware of the consequences! MONGOLS wanted to fight us, have stated so, to me, in the opening days of the war, and within 2-3 days of the opening shots, wanted to get out of it! That's like saying it was my darkest hour when I ordered hot sauce on my burrito and immediately regretted it.

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1333589994' post='2948472']
I understand what you're trying to do, equivocate Umbrella coming in optionally to back up GOONS in an offensive war when they already had a large margin of advantage, with Kaskus walking into a sure loss to defend their allies, but it really just makes you look silly.
[/quote]

The advantage was completely gone when NEW got involved; oh, I'm sorry, when those lovable scamps resigned from NEW and joined Kaskus after we called them on their foreign aid shenanigans. The only saving grace was that they attacked some MK nations ghosting for our pip instead of actual GOONS.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1333590905' post='2948479']
An alliance getting pummeled to honor a treaty isn't for nothing, they have their honor in tact regardless of how hard they get hit in response. As the quote goes "A coward dies a thousand deaths, the brave die but once."
[/quote]

QFT.

There are no victims here. Only the consequences of raiding the wrong party. GOONS will "win" this conflict due to number superiority, but the members of Mongols/Kaskus will have secured a solid "don't $%&@ with us without expecting a vicious kick in the face" reputation.

[AAAAAAAAAAGGGG]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1333595426' post='2948514']
QFT.

There are no victims here. Only the consequences of raiding the wrong party. GOONS will "win" this conflict due to number superiority, but the members of Mongols/Kaskus will have secured a solid "don't $%&@ with us without expecting a vicious kick in the face" reputation.
[/quote]

Additionally, they'll secure a reputation of being unpredictable and tactless (unless you think they already had that to begin with, which is fine by me). Both of these qualities are not desirable in allies.

[Xiphosis]

[quote]The advantage was completely gone when NEW got involved; oh, I'm sorry, when those lovable scamps resigned from NEW and joined Kaskus after we called them on their foreign aid shenanigans. The only saving grace was that they attacked some MK nations ghosting for our pip instead of actual GOONS.[/quote]

You mean the couple of nations that joined and brought the total up to about 21 v. ~180? Quite stunning you lost your advantage "Completely" that way. The GOONS war machine rolls on.

[Phineas]

[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1333595720' post='2948517']
Additionally, they'll secure a reputation of being unpredictable and tactless (unless you think they already had that to begin with, which is fine by me). Both of these qualities are not desirable in allies.
[/quote]

The GOONS seems to have done quite well at securing allies with the reputation you described.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1333595720' post='2948517']
Additionally, they'll secure a reputation of being unpredictable and tactless (unless you think they already had that to begin with, which is fine by me). Both of these qualities are not desirable in allies.
[/quote]

That's possible. Likewise, regarding consequences expected and otherwise, the efforts by your treaty partner to enforce their policy in the public eye (which I'm not disputing the validity of) also opens a lever for any force that wants to give them (or you) a good jerking- simply by aiding any raid target; then by their "policy" they would have to either demand token reps with their fingers crossed or simply back down in shame in the face of a larger foe. Claiming "interference" as a transgression in war time is one thing, and easily agreed upon; claiming alliance exclusivity to raid targets as some sort of resource to be horded is another.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Kzoppistan

[mattski133]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1333595861' post='2948519']
You mean the couple of nations that joined and brought the total up to about 21 v. ~180? Quite stunning you lost your advantage "Completely" that way. The GOONS war machine rolls on.
[/quote]

great summary. with that wicked burn you've stated that an alliance like GOD shouldn't have too much trouble if someone like The Gramlins came along looking for a fight.

i mean, it would be like 20 v 100 right? i can make up numbers and hide facts too!

Edited April 5, 2012 by mattski133

[Azaghul]

[quote name='mattski133' timestamp='1333596531' post='2948524']
great summary. with that wicked burn you've stated that an alliance like GOD shouldn't have too much trouble if someone like The Gramlins came along looking for a fight.
[/quote]
Or just Vladimir Stukov

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='AAAAAAAAAAGGGG' timestamp='1333595720' post='2948517']
Additionally, they'll secure a reputation of being unpredictable and tactless (unless you think they already had that to begin with, which is fine by me). Both of these qualities are not desirable in allies.
[/quote]
From early on in the "negotiations" Mongols had with GOONS on their mercy board, you can see GOONS excited over the war with Kaskus they knew would happen over them attacking Mongols. So the response from Kaskus wasn't unexpected by anyone including GOONS. Also when dealing with an alliance as tactless as GOONS, you can't expect much tact to be used in response with how GOONS were treating Mongols. Overall I think this conflict will boost opinions of Kaskus over what they would be had Kaskus decided to sidestep their responsibilities to defend Mongols. Opinions of Mongols can only go up from however long they continue to hold out and fight GOONS.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Methrage

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1333597451' post='2948526']
Or just Vladimir Stukov
[/quote]

Tbf, I didn't see the DoWs from GOD's bloc on Vladimir Stukov. Step yo game up Vlad.

[King Baloneous]

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1333597791' post='2948528']
From early on in the "negotiations" Mongols had with GOONS on their mercy board, you can see GOONS excited over the war with Kaskus they knew would happen over them attacking Mongols. So the response from Kaskus wasn't unexpected by anyone including GOONS. Also when dealing with an alliance as tactless as GOONS, you can't expect much tact to be used in response with how GOONS were treating Mongols. Overall I think this conflict will boost opinions of Kaskus over what they would be had Kaskus decided to sidestep their responsibilities to defend Mongols. Opinions of Mongols can only go up from however long they continue to hold out and fight GOONS.
[/quote]

you really should not be encouraging the honorable mongols and kaskus into ezi with us. I wouldn't expect the same kind of forgiveness you saw during rogue fest 2010 to be applied here.