An Announcement from TLR and NPO

[Pingu]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330884693' post='2933245']
you're safe only until PB/DH tell TLR to cancel their treaty with you
[/quote]

I don't think you know very much about TLR, do you?

[D34th]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1330884876' post='2933248']
I don't think you know very much about TLR, do you?
[/quote]

Yes I think you're right, I was being delusional, those in power commanding peripheral alliances to cancel treaties in order to isolate someone never happened in cyberverse, my bad, I'm truly sorry.

Edited March 4, 2012 by D34th

[Don Chele]

Congratulations on this treaty NPO and TLR. I expect this to be a forward step on the path of promoting order, and not a left turn down the path of anarchy.

[Pingu]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330885319' post='2933250']
Yes I think you're right, I was being delusional, those in power commanding peripheral alliances to cancel treaties in order to isolate someone never happened in cyberverse, my bad, I'm truly sorry.
[/quote]

What are you blathering about? My comment was about the nature and character of TLR, not about historical precedents for the scenario you are urging NPO to fear. Of course there are precedents for your scenario, but that is not the point. In my estimation, and I suspect NPO share it, TLR are far more likely to embrace annihilation in defence of an ally than to let some outside power, even a close ally, tell them they can't do so. TLR have flaws, no doubt. But disloyalty and cowardice are not among them.



Edit: missing 't'

Edited March 4, 2012 by Pingu

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='rsoxbronco1' timestamp='1330847208' post='2933067']
This is actually a brilliant strategic treaty on TLR's part and is part of a very long term FA plan that has slowly been gathering steam for over a year and a half from Athens through TLR[/quote][quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1330848893' post='2933080']
Yes, Athens was interested in this possibility and we began building this relationship quite some time ago. Certainly this process began while I was still leading Athens. I originally started advancing this idea because of two very simple ideas. One was that NPO had paid penance for past sins and deserved to rejoin the ranks of the powerful by virtue of their large and strong community and high activity. I felt that this would be good for the world. The other of course is the same reason anyone signs any treaty, and that is to gain both security and the ability to project power. From the early skype conversations years ago to the present day, I can honestly say that this treaty has probably been the longest in the making of any in CN. And of course the main obstacle to this was not our hatred or distrust or inability to forgive NPO for past actions, but the concerns of all of the rest of our allies. I feel confident in saying that had Athens preexisting allies been ok with our signing with NPO, it would have probably happened. But the world had unfinished business with them after Karma I suppose, so this is how things played out instead.

The remarks that TLR is Athens 2.0 are highly amusing. TLR has a completely different dynamic and is a completely different alliance than Athens.[/quote]
Listen, you two, I haven't and I wouldn't say that TLR is "Athens 2.0" (for one thing I don't think it is, and for another I hate the phrase "point-O" ) But let's get real: to me as an observer who is not caught up in the Athens rhetoric, I find it silly to watch all of you protest so fervently that TLR is not [i]anything [/i]like Athens whilst telling me that this is a treaty that Athens started. Just ignore the Athens 2.0 stuff.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1330880601' post='2933221']
That's the only reason given with the declaration of any treaty. Nobody states the true strategic decisions behind an agreement. That'd be idiotic. Why would anybody broadcast that? It is the duty of neither NPO nor TLR to enlighten you as to their objectives if you can't figure them out on your own. Furthermore, whatever conclusions you personally reach about the treaty are based on little more than speculation, so complaining about said conclusions to draw a response out of the signatories is just a backdoor way of trying to get them to state the underpinning "why".

In short, you can't expect everybody to play "cards face up" like I tried to do.
[/quote]
This is where we discuss things, that's what I'm doing. I know you understand that, maybe you can talk to Voytek and Denial and help them cope, perhaps direct them to the "sign out" link. Sometimes discussion works, see:

[quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1330850652' post='2933089']
Alright I can understand the confusion. TLR and NPO have opted to have some fun with this treaty. Due to this many look at it and the situation as one without real merit of meat of functionality. This is due to a good amount of assumptions and porch political review. Yes we (NPO and TLR) fostered this by again, having a good time. But since people want to get all serious, let do that shall we?[/quote]
(Beware, Denial, I'm about to use bolds to delineate Brehon's words from mine again, so you might want to turn away)
Thank you for your great deeper discussion, Brehon. My thoughts:

[b]Point 1 - Friends.
Friends =/= treaty, yet every treaty should contain an element of friendship.[/b]
That is certainly true. What I dislike is a debasement of foreign policy to nothing but friends. TLR and its predecessor used this friend-based FP rhetoric heavily, and if that's all they give us, that's all we've got to go on.

[b]Point 2 - Benefit
Simple fact is the NPO is more protected now. Its FA influence has grown, its extended military reach has grown. When situations arise, we have more options to choose from, more avenues to explore and a much greater control of our alliances future. I was open and honest when I said the NPO's goal (which overall has never changed) is to be number one militarily, economically and politically. The difference is what we are willing to do to get there. I will not apologize, chastise or demean the efforts, and lets call them selfish efforts, by both TLR and NPO to achieve their goals. Everything in this treaty simply puts to words the mutual benefit we both share with complete knowledge of the others selfish benefit.[/b]
Well-put, and if more alliances had real ambition like this, then Londo and Azaghul could stop talking about how bored they are. I question the path NPO is taking toward that goal because I see it as counter-productive, but I'm in charge of CoJ, not NPO
And as I said, the only difference between Brehon's NPO getting stronger and Cortath's NPO getting stronger is the TLR treaty, and on the way to your goal something has to give in the established order. [i]And as a pragmatic matter[/i], I simply think that if TLR thinks it can stop any of NPO's enemies among their allies or allies-of-allies by virtue of this treaty and telling them all how cool you guys are, then they have a bad naivete problem.

[b]Again to harp on this is pro anyone that is not NPO and TLR is propaganda poppycock. Because in the end both alliances will do what is best to further and protect their alliances interests.[/b]
That is the same sentiment that you and Pacifican diplomats have conveyed to CoJ in past private conversations, and I will simply reiterate that I understand where you're coming from, but NPO and TLR do not exist in a vacuum.

[b]Had the NPO offered up communication post Karma we may not have seen the pre-empt by DH against us (this is speculation and certainly people will argue both ways). I don't care which side you end up on, the fact is the NPO didn't communicate and in the past when the NPO didn't it was plotting against you. Truth be told any perception not addressed becomes a reality.[/b]
I would have you know that I disagree with this blame-the-victim stance that has become fact only by virtuee of MK et al writing history. In the experience of CoJ, NPO got right past our Vox roots, and got right to work in several collaborations besides Red Dawn. The fact of the matter is that NPO could've talked itself blue in the face and it wouldn't have mattered, and that when some alliances came to NPO in earnest, NPO was very diplomatic with them. It is not NPO's fault that NPO got rolled.

[quote name='Brenann' timestamp='1330861642' post='2933150']
And before we made these in roads into discussing and new relationships we were a target for everyone. Right now there is not an outside force that poses a threat to the NPO directly that can come at us with out some VERY solid reasoning.[/quote]
That isn't really the case. Any alliance that is dumb enough to sideswipe you will do it if they want to. The C&G link didn't stop Fark, your rather large set of allies didn't stop Doom House.

[quote name='Brenann' timestamp='1330861642' post='2933150']I also want to address the fact that if we didnt talk or work with those who have rolled us in the past we would never get back into the world at all. We have literally pissed off almost every alliance in existence, we have been rolled by almost everyone. The list of who we have not fought or pissed off in the past is a very very short list that wont let us attain our goals of being the top alliance in the game. There are some alliances who refuse to change or address the issues and they seem to be getting rolled at least every year like clock work.
[/quote]
See above. I am an adult and a politician, my problems with an alliance or person last as long as they suit me, and then they're done. I walked right out of Vox Populi into Cult of Justitia, and immediately began working with NPO on things that it made sense to work with NPO on--Red unity, Senate sharing, a smooth transition away from the Moldavi Doctrine, post-Revenge Doctrine protection of unaligneds. At the same time, while I worked with NPO and wanted good relations and collaborations with NPO, I had and have no serious interest in a military union with NPO. And while Cortath and successive regimes, and CoJ were working together GOONS, VE, PC, MK, Athens, etc were infuriated on a personal level with me and threatened both NPO and CoJ over and over. Why? I was PZIed and blackballed the same as any of them, my alliance (GOONS) was forced into disbandment which is more than MK ever had to deal with, my friends lived in terror and under tyranny. So, why? Because it was laziness, it was easier to kick on NPO than to move on politically even though politically it made sense. Because of the "politics" and foreign "policy" of friendship.

When was NPO supposed to "talk" with those alliances? While they were sending SethB to be your diplomat? While they were techraiding you? While they were kicking sand in the Red Court's face? I know that at this point, NPO has to accept the narrative that has been recorded, but you certainly don't have to buy into it.


All political questions aside, congratulations on meeting your goal and finding an ally.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Schattenmann

[D34th]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1330885822' post='2933254']
What are you blathering about? My comment was about the nature and character of TLR, not about historical precedents for the scenario you are urging NPO to fear. Of course there are precedents for your scenario, but that is not the point. In my estimation, and I suspect NPO share it, TLR are far more likely to embrace annihilation in defence of an ally than to let some outside power, even a close ally, tell them they can't do so. TLR have flaws, no doubt. But disloyalty and cowardice are not among them.



Edit: missing 't'
[/quote]

And I'm totally surprised that you are saying that your ally isn't coward and disloyal, I never would expected that, really. But you convinced me, now I believe that when the times come and MK says: [i]"We need a new objective to keep our alliances together and prevent we to fight each other, therefore it's time to isolate NPO once again, TLR, cancel your treaty with them"[/i] TLR will stand up and say [i]"Never! I'll die beside my new BFF!"[/i] and CnG will say:[i] "We stand beside you TLR, we will burn for NPO together!"[/i] This is going to be glorious day indeed, I have tears in my eyes just for imagining it.

[Pingu]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330886780' post='2933264']
And I'm totally surprised that you are saying that your ally isn't coward and disloyal, I never would expected that, really. But you convinced me, now I believe that when the times come and MK says: [i]"We need a new objective to keep our alliances together and prevent we to fight each other, therefore it's time to isolate NPO once again, TLR, cancel your treaty with them"[/i] TLR will stand up and say [i]"Never! I'll die beside my new BFF!"[/i] and CnG will say:[i] "We stand beside you TLR, we will burn for NPO together!"[/i] This is going to be glorious day indeed, I have tears in my eyes just for imagining it.
[/quote]

I'm glad to have stirred you to such heights of passion.

[New Frontier]

Congratulations to our friends and allies at TLR. You've wanted to see this happen for a long time, and I'm happy for you.

[cookavich]

Two exemplary alliances coming together is always a good thing. Congrats to my allies in TLR, and to my friends in the NPO.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330843225' post='2933019']
In addition, Schattenmann, the grasp they have is rather tenuous, just some people have to act on their distaste for them. That is the key.

Sardonic: How is it uninformed? Walks like Athens, talks like Athens, and so on. Just because some of the LOST guys upped the trash talk doesn't mean much. Even Myth said it was Athens dominated. AirMe is moralist when he wants to be. The rest of the time he just shuts up.
[/quote]What the heck is up with you and the "even so and so said this" arguments? As if the fact that Myth said something would make us buy into your ridiculous drivel. Get bent.

Edited March 4, 2012 by cookavich

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330886780' post='2933264']
And I'm totally surprised that you are saying that your ally isn't coward and disloyal, I never would expected that, really. But you convinced me, now I believe that when the times come and MK says: [i]"We need a new objective to keep our alliances together and prevent we to fight each other, therefore it's time to isolate NPO once again, TLR, cancel your treaty with them"[/i] TLR will stand up and say [i]"Never! I'll die beside my new BFF!"[/i] and CnG will say:[i] "We stand beside you TLR, we will burn for NPO together!"[/i] This is going to be glorious day indeed, I have tears in my eyes just for imagining it.
[/quote]

The amusing thing is that you assume every single alliance out there treats their friends as terribly as Polar does.

[MagicalTrevor]

I would never join AThens 2.0 and I do not view Rush as a god. Stop saying mean and untrue things Roq.


I actually like this treaty from a strategic perspective for us, works on several levels. Literally don't know anybody in NPO but as Schat said earlier friendships dont matter in politics (despite being the basis to first NPOs and then MKs ascent to the top you wordly and unsurprisingly shocking realpolitik player)

[D34th]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1330888745' post='2933278']
The amusing thing is that you assume every single alliance out there treats their friends as terribly as Polar does.
[/quote]

I'm not surprised by your "Avoid the arguments, attack the AA" strategy, it isn't very original and reeks of desperation, but at least update yourself next time, I'm not in Polaris anymore.

[chefjoe]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330886780' post='2933264']
Excuse me while I stick my foot in my mouth......AGAIN...
[/quote]

It says something that you cannot see and understand the true direction and ramifications of this treaty....it says you are extremely dense and too blinded by the past to see what is readily apparent.


Seriously death its time to wake up and smell the new planet Bob

Edited March 4, 2012 by chefjoe

[Branimir]

When everything is added, this must be one of the most in length debated treaties of recent time. Maybe I am wrong,...not that active and I do only take notice of things concerning my neck of the woods. And all discussions I have seen, while somewhat put to the point of agreeing to disagree, was quite to the point, polite enough even if emotional at points, honest and clean.

Straight up, as it can be. I can dig that.

*[i]old fart reminiscence,...[/i]
Man, I remember the time when a treaty was just declared to you and you were like,...mkay, hailing this, $%&@ yeah. Those were simpler times,....
*[i]drinks some puppy milk, while going to the door to visit the nearby brothel[/i]

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330889099' post='2933282']
I'm not surprised by your "Avoid the arguments, attack the AA" strategy, it isn't very original and reeks of desperation, but at least update yourself next time, I'm not in Polaris anymore.
[/quote]

Alright, fine, I'll spell it out for you - TLR, and previously their consistuent alliances, have a habit of developing a network of solid friends with a track record of looking out for them if they need it, without feeling the need to screw them into the ground.

It is utterly irrelevant where you are now, because either way your low expectations are at odds with the reality for a solid bunch like TLR. The scenario you paint isn't going to happen any time soon, which is a shame for your enjoyment I suppose. Better get a new hobby.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Laslo Kenez

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1330886469' post='2933260']
WHARRGARBL
[/quote]
I'm not 'fervently protesting' anything. You're just wrong.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1330888745' post='2933278']
The amusing thing is that you assume every single alliance out there treats their friends as terribly as Polar does.
[/quote]
Polaris mistreats allies, GATO abandons them on the battlefield. Tell me the real difference.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Schattenmann

[D34th]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1330889788' post='2933286']
Alright, fine, I'll spell it out for you - TLR, and previously their consistuent alliances, have a habit of developing a network of solid friends with a track record of looking out for them if they need it, without feeling the need to screw them into the ground.[/quote]

I'll avoid to repeat myself, just go back to [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=109502&view=findpost&p=2933264"][b]this[/b][/url] post.

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1330889788' post='2933286']
It is utterly irrelevant where you are now, because either way your low expectations are at odds with the reality for a solid bunch like TLR. The scenario you paint isn't going to happen any time soon, which is a shame for your enjoyment I suppose. Better get a new hobby.
[/quote]

Oh you called me irrelevant, I'll go to my bed and cry for the rest of the day.

May be you're right and the scenario isn't happening anytime soon, but we seems to agree that it will happen soon or later and it only depends how long will take to PB/DH run out of new enemies and go back to target the old ones, but I'm a very patient person, so don't worry.

Edited March 4, 2012 by D34th

[Pingu]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1330890175' post='2933289']
Polaris mistreats allies, GATO leaves them to die on the battlefield. Tell me the real difference.
[/quote]

But you're straying from the topic, which is how terrible TLR & NPO are, and how they are tools of the new evil hegemony. Please keep on track.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Pingu' timestamp='1330890314' post='2933293']
But you're straying from the topic, which is how terrible TLR & NPO are, and how they are tools of the new evil hegemony. Please keep on track.
[/quote]
You'll be hard-pressed to find a quote from me to that effect.

[Pingu]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1330890716' post='2933295']
You'll be hard-pressed to find a quote from me to that effect.
[/quote]

I didn't say it was [i]your[/i] topic.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1330890288' post='2933290']

Oh you called me irrelevant, I'll go to my bed and cry for the rest of the day.

May be you're right and the scenario isn't happening anytime soon, but we seems to agree that it will happen soon or later and it only depends how long will take to PB/DH run out of new enemies and go back to target the old ones, but I'm a very patient person, so don't worry.
[/quote]

I didn't call [i]you[/i] irrelevant, just where you are, because your views on TLR and its allies are pretty departed from the reality of them making dependable friends and being more than dependable themselves.

[Ayatollah Bromeini]

[quote name='Garion' timestamp='1330866983' post='2933167']
Is it not? Because the impression given is different.
[/quote]

What would give one the impression that the relationship between C&G, DH, and PB isn't one of mutual friendship, but of "master and pet"? Just curious.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1330857197' post='2933128']
The whole having to explain how TLR is Athens 2.0 kind of derailed the main point though.
[/quote]
Explained? nah mate you just spouted more unsubstantiated generalizations and weak-ass assumptions.

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1330857985' post='2933135']
Edit: But seriously you guys are Athens 2.0
[/quote]
Says someone with absolutely $%&@-all first hand knowledge of what it is to be a TLR member.

[Devilyn Caster]

Congrats to us, this has definitely been a long time coming.

Also, with regards to the "Athens 2.0" Claim -

[quote]Rush Sykes, Triumvir <--- [b]Athens[/b]
Mandellav, Triumvir <--- [b]=LOST=[/b]
AirMe, Triumvir <--- [b]Ronin[/b]

Voodoo Nova, Minister of Foreign Affairs <--- [b]Athens[/b]
stealthypenguin93, Minister of Defense <--- [b]=LOST=[/b]
Don Pedro, Minister of Internal Affairs <--- [b]=LOST=[/b]
The Corrupt Teacher, Minister of Economics <--- [b]=LOST=[/b]

Cameronious, Senator <--- [b]=LOST=[/b]
Stefano Palmieri, Senator <--- [b]=LOST=[/b]
Jgoods45, Senator <--- [b]Athens[/b]
Kestral, Senator <--- [b]Greenland Republic[/b]
Kamichi, Senator <--- [b]Mushroom Kingdom[/b][/quote]

Twice as many former =LOST=ers in there than Athenians. Didn't you hear? We won the cold war and annexed them.