Sephiroth Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='Lord Hershey' timestamp='1326441017' post='2898685'] Look what happened to Germany after the surrender to the Allies during the Great War. Germany unleashed its grudges and went berserk, didn't they? [/quote] Genmay disbanded in the unjust war and most of their members reformed into a new alliance, becoming the strongest uppertier alliance in the game. Although they didn't go after any grudges directly, but just aligned themselves so they would be on the other side if a war did occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 That was awesome, Methrage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfEmpty Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1326444360' post='2898702'] Genmay disbanded in the unjust war and most of their members reformed into a new alliance, becoming the strongest uppertier alliance in the game. Although they didn't go after any grudges directly, but just aligned themselves so they would be on the other side if a war did occur. [/quote] What became of East Genmay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 I used to have a few. Too apathetic now to have any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) The problem with grudges is that grudges have supplanted politics for too many people. Instead of looking around for alliances that have natural points of alignment with one's own (anti-raiding, pro-raiding, optional-only, neutral, moralist, Francoism, Adminism, communist, nationalist, etc) alliance, people end up allying alliances that they have no political business being allied to. A good example is Ardus' path for VE post-reformation, as outlined in his thread "The Ardus Files" where you've got this alliance that preaches honor and whatever else VE doesn't have allied to Polaris, NPO, etc during the height of their atrocities simply so that VE can get revenge one after another on the people that declared war on them pre-disband. Now they're all evened up, but VE still doesn't embody the ideals on its state seal or letterhead in part because they don't know how anymore; the current leadership all came up in this era of sell-outism. TOP you've got allied to MK who charged them massive reps. Grämlins spent two years talking out both sides of its mouth to stick it to GGA. Edited January 13, 2012 by Schattenmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crymson Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1326444360' post='2898702'] Genmay disbanded in the unjust war and most of their members reformed into a new alliance, becoming the strongest uppertier alliance in the game. Although they didn't go after any grudges directly, but just aligned themselves so they would be on the other side if a war did occur. [/quote] Oh, dear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derantol Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1326480855' post='2898921'] The problem with grudges is that grudges have supplanted politics for too many people. Instead of looking around for alliances that have natural points of alignment with one's own (anti-raiding, pro-raiding, optional-only, neutral, moralist, Francoism, Adminism, communist, nationalist, etc) alliance, people end up allying alliances that they have no political business being allied to. A good example is Ardus' path for VE post-reformation, as outlined in his thread "The Ardus Files" where you've got this alliance that preaches honor and whatever else VE doesn't have allied to Polaris, NPO, etc during the height of their atrocities simply so that VE can get revenge one after another on the people that declared war on them pre-disband. Now they're all evened up, but VE still doesn't embody the ideals on its state seal or letterhead in part because they don't know how anymore; the current leadership all came up in this era of sell-outism. TOP you've got allied to MK who charged them massive reps. Grämlins spent two years talking out both sides of its mouth to stick it to GGA. [/quote] I would venture to say, given your qualms, that if a grudge is to be held, holding that grudge shouldn't require a sacrifice of alliance values. In that case, FAN is an excellent example of a group that has a legitimate complaint against NPO and other alliances. However, that particular grudge has a bit of a stale taste to it now. Is this the third war now where FAN has gone to war with NPO? Compared to this war, where TOP and IRON have been pretty consistent about voicing displeasure for Polar and have worked to make the political environment one in which we could attack more safely. As exciting as wars are, it's usually pretty evident in the first week who's going to win. Seeing the treaty movements and watching tensions build is more exciting for me, especially the closer we get to another war. Also, it seems like you're endorsing that alliances themselves remain stagnant and don't look for opportunity to grow and change. TOP and MK becoming allies was unexpected, but the interaction between them after BiPolar evidently made it clear to them that they could get along. If alliances can't realign from time to time, then it really will be the exact same sides fighting the exact same war over and over. The more of this realignment that occurs, the more interesting the game would become. If you would have told me a year ago IRON would be fighting on the same side of the war that Complaints and Grievances were on, I would have thought you were crazy. And yet, here we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniscient1 Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1326480855' post='2898921'] The problem with grudges is that grudges have supplanted politics for too many people. Instead of looking around for alliances that have natural points of alignment with one's own (anti-raiding, pro-raiding, optional-only, neutral, moralist, Francoism, Adminism, communist, nationalist, etc) alliance, people end up allying alliances that they have no political business being allied to. A good example is Ardus' path for VE post-reformation, as outlined in his thread "The Ardus Files" where you've got this alliance that preaches honor and whatever else VE doesn't have allied to Polaris, NPO, etc during the height of their atrocities simply so that VE can get revenge one after another on the people that declared war on them pre-disband. Now they're all evened up, but VE still doesn't embody the ideals on its state seal or letterhead in part because they don't know how anymore; the current leadership all came up in this era of sell-outism. TOP you've got allied to MK who charged them massive reps. Grämlins spent two years talking out both sides of its mouth to stick it to GGA. [/quote] A side effect of "friends > infra" philosophy perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Memories are actually too short rather than too long. Grudges become ingrained in the common psyche when it is in the best interests of leadership to ingrain them, but a lot of stuff is just forgotten as if it never happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buds The Man Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 [quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1326344573' post='2897901'] The world needs to be at least bi-polar in order for this mess to work, multi-polar is even better. The more people hate each other the greater the tensions that develop, the more exciting things become. There is a line however where holding grudges defeats this. You need to be able to drop the grudge when it becomes necessary to re-align the world to create roughly equal sides to allow new tensions to develop. If you and yours hold all the power it becomes self-defeating. I would argue this war is one of the most boring ever for this reason. Some of us have been waiting far too long for this conflict, the grudges should have been traded for something more useful a long time ago. The best periods for me on Bob were when there were no foregone conclusions months out from major conflicts. The jockeying and trading/excusing of grudges to align the numbers you need is where a lot of the fun was for me and many others. It is important that we hold onto things but also be prepared to let them go when it is appropriate to do so. [/quote] DAMN i must agree with him. [quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1326402357' post='2898226'] Honestly, i think a bit of grudges is healthy, but there should be a time to drop em. I'm happy that SF had the opportunity to fight mjolnir and get some things over with that were overdue for a long time between both parties. I don't know if the slate is clean or not,(an agreement between both parties would be required, implicit or not) but it felt satisfying to get it all out and over with, so we can move on. [/quote] As long as we won sure ill go for that JKING i think it cleared the air a bit now lets see what the future holds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Grudges bring out our competitive sides, they are by far the most effective driver of politics. In TPF competition has always been what has given us a purpose. Though it was not a grudge, the competition between TPF and Atlantis was an excellent motivator and a very good learning experience. After Slayer, we found a certain amount of purpose in preparing for the rolling we had coming. Not being very politically active after Karma, we made an effort to resolve the tension we had created between ourselves and STA and to get more MPs in the lower-mid ranges as a way to prepare for what we were would be another rolling and made good progress in changing the personality (for lack of a better term on short notice) of our alliance. The grudges that prompted competition or changing how we build nations gave us some purpose. Unfortunately, Atlantis, Athens etc are no longer around and there is now no alliances with whom we have a similarly competitive or combative dynamic and as a result we find ourselves slightly directionless. Competition keeps people hungry. Life sucks without it. Edited January 14, 2012 by Roadie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1326480855' post='2898921'] The problem with grudges is that grudges have supplanted politics for too many people. Instead of looking around for alliances that have natural points of alignment with one's own (anti-raiding, pro-raiding, optional-only, neutral, moralist, Francoism, Adminism, communist, nationalist, etc) alliance, people end up allying alliances that they have no political business being allied to. A good example is Ardus' path for VE post-reformation, as outlined in his thread "The Ardus Files" where you've got this alliance that preaches honor and whatever else VE doesn't have allied to Polaris, NPO, etc during the height of their atrocities simply so that VE can get revenge one after another on the people that declared war on them pre-disband. Now they're all evened up, but VE still doesn't embody the ideals on its state seal or letterhead in part because they don't know how anymore; the current leadership all came up in this era of sell-outism. TOP you've got allied to MK who charged them massive reps. Grämlins spent two years talking out both sides of its mouth to stick it to GGA. [/quote] My problem with your analysis is that much of the politics of yore were merely dressed up grudges. The "advanced" state they reached was only due to the unique balance of the Great War Era between WUT and the League/AEGIS. I will admit the lack of grudges helped, but from a different angle: people you'd expect to be joined at the hip due to ideals are often divided by grudges they hold with one another or vicariously through allies. Polaris is a prime example. They've managed to secure a some support and sympathy when trumpeting moralism, but they're gimped by their non-political reputation: peace mode, BiPolar War, unstable, hostile, etc. There's some broader, greater point I want to make, but for some reason I can't seem to collect my thoughts at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Also I'd like to address a grudge that shouldn't really exist: DR/VE. Considering Impero was willing to go in with Argent on Gre, they weren't really bad at all. It was an alliance IRON is treatied to though in a nominal sense that was blocking it. VE is always made into the bad guy, though. Edited January 14, 2012 by Roquentin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Chele Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 I could name a few nation rulers I'd like to see on the pointy end of a stick, but I don't think I have anything against any ruler or alliance that could be characterized as a grudge. I do recognize that they exist for a lot of people, though, and because of that I think they are an important tool in any manipulator's toolkit. Grudges, like resentments and paranoid fears, are easy strings to pull to affect the behavior of another individual or alliance. I don't see them as good or bad, just an alternatively useful or problematic (depending on whether the manipulation is for or against your interests) fact of life. In my very limited experience (only having been a neutral menace and Schattenfan in my CN career), I have found dealing with the personal or historical grudges of my alliance mates to be more interesting than those external alliance grudges that results in crusades seeking a renewed sense of self-worth. It is quite interesting when the majority of the alliance and applicants no longer know why the name Valid de Impala is taboo or why "merger" is a dirty word among green alliances (LoL: color politics). It's not bad, but grudges don't make much sense internally when the minority were around to experience the causation. I suppose my experiences just lead me to believe that most alliance "grudges" are specious and pretextual, at least to the extent that they are used as the rationale for contemporary actions, which makes them an entirely typical rationale around here. /me misses the days when grudges were reserved for a good old fashioned ragequit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Systemfailure Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 If your reading this then i hate you and wish to cause you harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ameris Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Just let it go. Really. CN got me bad in RL, brought me stresses that I did not need. Sometimes the quest for revenge can consume you. It can make you do desperate, idiotic things. Me, for instance, I lost the ability to think before I acted. I became some annoying turd that would not go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtamdraugr Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Systemfailure' timestamp='1326536407' post='2899341'] If your reading this then i hate you and wish to cause you harm. [/quote] Comma at me, bro. I find holding a grudge liken to giving someone else power over me. It's not something I relish. On the opposing side of the argument, I would like to see some individuals get pinched in the nether regions by errant clothing whilst juggling rabid ferrets. edit: ikanspel Edited January 14, 2012 by Valtamdraugr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cataduanes Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 I just dislike certain people these days, grudges are so 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Grudges can cause things to happen and politics to be interesting. The entire Initiative period was so interesting because of the grudge between NPO and Legion, mostly, which polarised the world into two camps. TOP/Polar has kept things on edge on and off for quite a long time. NPO/FAN gets occasional airings, and I imagine that makes things fun for FAN members, at least. However, we need to be able to drop them, otherwise politics becomes stale. A good rule of thumb is if you've rolled an alliance for something, you should drop the grudges that led you to want to hit them in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1326563965' post='2899497'] grudges are so 2009. [/quote] Tell that to half of CN. [size="1"]*Aforementioned statistic is not verifiable.[/size] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardus Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1326580125' post='2899694'] Tell that to half of CN. [size="1"]*Aforementioned statistic is not verifiable.[/size] [/quote] Aye, the actual figure should be much higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derantol Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326515924' post='2899252'] Also I'd like to address a grudge that shouldn't really exist: DR/VE. Considering Impero was willing to go in with Argent on Gre, they weren't really bad at all. It was an alliance IRON is treatied to though in a nominal sense that was blocking it. VE is always made into the bad guy, though. [/quote] Does DR mean Duckroll or something else in this instance? I wasn't aware there was really a grudge there. I mean, I'm relatively indifferent to VE, with some slight negative coming from being allied to GOD, but that's a very minor thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monster Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Derantol' timestamp='1326702532' post='2900817'] Does DR mean Duckroll or something else in this instance? I wasn't aware there was really a grudge there. I mean, I'm relatively indifferent to VE, with some slight negative coming from being allied to GOD, but that's a very minor thing. [/quote] Yes. Well, they hated on VE for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regent of Omerta Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1326702601' post='2900818'] Yes. Well, they hated on VE for the most part. [/quote] It's probably not so much you as it is the company you keep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Janova Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I was in VE for quite a long time and never got that memo either, heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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