A Briefest Comment on RIA

[Stonewall Jaxon]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' timestamp='1322802437' post='2858995']
Did you just compare TOP to MCXA?

The only person you are fooling is yourself if you call TOP a pawn. They are one of the handful of alliances in this game that have the ability to lead coalitions.
[/quote]

Most alliances have such an "ability." Hell, MHA is bigger than two Polars, and you don't see them with the sphere of influence they technically should have.

EDIT: Of course I also realize TOP is more dense in talent and experience than MHA. For the counter there, look at the original NSO and tell me how large their sphere of influence became.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Stonewall Jaxon

[Joe Stupid]

For everyone calling RIA cowards, you're clearly retarded. There are many reasons for people to single out and hate SF, but that's just because you most likely jumped on the bandwagon. RIA is an alliance, about 8 months ago who attacked both sides of a war to help us out in Rok when we came in for Polar. I can never call them a coward because they sacrificed so we could make our stand. Every other one of our 22 treaties said no. In fact, Sparta lied to all of our gov when confronted about it. Well that was Hyperion, and he was a coward. I hold no love for most of SF, i'll admit that, but if people want them so bad go and hit them. But don't call them cowards because you're too afraid to start your own war. RIA is some of the best allies you can have and I'll never forget what they did for Rok, but if you can sit here and think that not entering this war is RIA's decision alone, you're crazy.

[Crymson]

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1322714023' post='2857628']
"I don't like your criticism of X, so I'm going to criticize you of the same thing, which de facto recognizing that it is bad, while failing to tell you why your original criticism was wrong."
[/quote]

Please, nobody criticize X! He's trying his best.

[/inside joke]

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1322803441' post='2859014']
For everyone calling RIA cowards, you're clearly retarded. There are many reasons for people to single out and hate SF, but that's just because you most likely jumped on the bandwagon. RIA is an alliance, about 8 months ago who attacked both sides of a war to help us out in Rok when we came in for Polar. I can never call them a coward because they sacrificed so we could make our stand. Every other one of our 22 treaties said no. In fact, Sparta lied to all of our gov when confronted about it. Well that was Hyperion, and he was a coward. I hold no love for most of SF, i'll admit that, but if people want them so bad go and hit them. But don't call them cowards because you're too afraid to start your own war. RIA is some of the best allies you can have and I'll never forget what they did for Rok, but if you can sit here and think that not entering this war is RIA's decision alone, you're crazy.
[/quote]

That just earned some respect.

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1322803441' post='2859014']
For everyone calling RIA cowards, you're clearly retarded. There are many reasons for people to single out and hate SF, but that's just because you most likely jumped on the bandwagon. RIA is an alliance, about 8 months ago who attacked both sides of a war to help us out in Rok when we came in for Polar. I can never call them a coward because they sacrificed so we could make our stand. Every other one of our 22 treaties said no. In fact, Sparta lied to all of our gov when confronted about it. Well that was Hyperion, and he was a coward. I hold no love for most of SF, i'll admit that, but if people want them so bad go and hit them. But don't call them cowards because you're too afraid to start your own war. RIA is some of the best allies you can have and I'll never forget what they did for Rok, but if you can sit here and think that not entering this war is RIA's decision alone, you're crazy.
[/quote]


Yep. RIA was courageous enough to threaten along with the rest of SF to sabotage the rest of the coalition's efforts unless certain backroom terms for their and RoK's engagement were agreed to, for an alliance that really ultimately allowed the war to start in the first place by first giving VE the go ahead to hit Polar after VE asked, and then waffling and changing their mind when they saw it would permanently cripple them because a !@#$ ton of their active membership would leave if they didn't honor the polar treaty. I mean, I understood what happened pretty well and didn't mind it so much, but a lot of the other people in the know aren't so understanding or forgiving.

[WalkerNinja]

Seems like Fark and RIA need some courage.

[img]http://puddlesgathering.com/blog/img-meme_courage_wolf_fires.png[/img]

[flak attack]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1322802370' post='2858993']you want to win and achieve absolute political dominance at all costs, and I think he is a lot more interested in creating an interesting world.
[/quote]
I disagree. Fighting the shattered remnants of the ex-Heg alliances over and over again isn't interesting. As far as we can tell, that's what Tromp wants to do. Like it or not, if this world was going to stay interesting, SG had to go.

MK, on the other hand, has repeatedly taken risks to make sure things stayed interesting around these parts. We brought TOP back into the fold instead of forcing them to stay isolated at the periphery, putting a heavy split into our power base. We cancelled all our treaties and only resigned a portion of them because we realized we were strangling the world. We risked all our political capital when we launched a direct attack on NPO because we weren't going to just sit around with our thumbs up our asses while half the world sat in a stalemate. Since then, we're worked to bring them back out of their isolation, even at the risk of isolating a portion of our power base.

Tromp, meanwhile, has fought to keep SG, a two year old power structure, in a dominant position as long as he could.

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1322804096' post='2859030']
Yep. RIA was courageous enough to threaten along with the rest of SF to sabotage the rest of the coalition's efforts unless certain backroom terms for their and RoK's engagement were agreed to, for an alliance that really ultimately allowed the war to start in the first place by first giving VE the go ahead to hit Polar after VE asked, and then waffling and changing their mind when they saw it would permanently cripple them because a !@#$ ton of their active membership would leave if they didn't honor the polar treaty. I mean, I understood what happened pretty well and didn't mind it so much, but a lot of the other people in the know aren't so understanding or forgiving.
[/quote]

I believe that's called putting an ally before a coalition, but I understand where you're coming from.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Joe Stupid

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1322804096' post='2859030']
Yep. RIA was courageous enough to threaten along with the rest of SF to sabotage the rest of the coalition's efforts unless certain backroom terms for their and RoK's engagement were agreed to, for an alliance that really ultimately allowed the war to start in the first place by first giving VE the go ahead to hit Polar after VE asked, and then waffling and changing their mind when they saw it would permanently cripple them because a !@#$ ton of their active membership would leave if they didn't honor the polar treaty. I mean, I understood what happened pretty well and didn't mind it so much, but a lot of the other people in the know aren't so understanding or forgiving.
[/quote]

That one in particular we all mostly put on Rok though, not RIA.

[Bob Ilyani]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1322804096' post='2859030']
Yep. RIA was courageous enough to threaten along with the rest of SF to sabotage the rest of the coalition's efforts unless certain backroom terms for their and RoK's engagement were agreed to, for an alliance that really ultimately allowed the war to start in the first place by first giving VE the go ahead to hit Polar after VE asked, and then waffling and changing their mind when they saw it would permanently cripple them because a !@#$ ton of their active membership would leave if they didn't honor the polar treaty. I mean, I understood what happened pretty well and didn't mind it so much, but a lot of the other people in the know aren't so understanding or forgiving.
[/quote]

That's not why we chose to come to Polar's aid at all. It's semantics though.

And yeah, we did mess up the whole coalition plan. Blame our dysfunctional (and thankfully since revamped) government.

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1322804444' post='2859038']
That's not why we chose to come to Polar's aid at all. It's semantics though.

And yeah, we did mess up the whole coalition plan. Blame our dysfunctional (and thankfully since revamped) government.
[/quote]
Blame Tautology.

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1322804554' post='2859042']
Blame Tautology.
[/quote]

No sense pointing fingers at ghosts now.

[Derwood1]

IIRC RIA $%&@ed up most of the coalitions plans along with the rest of SF during the last biggie.

As far as the current war goes; I never would have thought UPN would be more standup then RIA. I guess FARK will only let you zip your pants on the side....pretty sad.

O/ UPN you have proved to be good allies, RIA needs to take note.

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1322804290' post='2859034']
I disagree. Fighting the shattered remnants of the ex-Heg alliances over and over again isn't interesting. As far as we can tell, that's what Tromp wants to do. Like it or not, if this world was going to stay interesting, SG had to go.

MK, on the other hand, has repeatedly taken risks to make sure things stayed interesting around these parts. We brought TOP back into the fold instead of forcing them to stay isolated at the periphery, putting a heavy split into our power base. We cancelled all our treaties and only resigned a portion of them because we realized we were strangling the world. We risked all our political capital when we launched a direct attack on NPO because we weren't going to just sit around with our thumbs up our asses while half the world sat in a stalemate. Since then, we're worked to bring them back out of their isolation, even at the risk of isolating a portion of our power base.

Tromp, meanwhile, has fought to keep SG, a two year old power structure, in a dominant position as long as he could.
[/quote]


Personally, I would have been in favor of rolling a d20 every month and going after a new one on the !@#$list until they were all paste. Some would regrow over time, perhaps some of us might occasionally fall out of favor and get rolled ourselves. That was how NPO used to run things, and not all of what they did was bad. If we hadn't been rolled at that point as a group, we could have always split up over the differences we had at that point and gone at each other then. I think that would have been pretty entertaining to the majority of the world, certainly more entertaining than what actually happened. I view SG as a failed power structure, because we were never able to use our power to actually project power and fear against our enemies, mostly because TOP and allies were so strong compared to us. In the end it just ended up being a long long long waiting game, and to me even an uneven military action is a lot more interesting and entertaining than a year long game of cat and mouse.

I understand what you are saying, but I would have preferred if we had done things in a lot of different ways compared to what was done, and think it would have turned out a lot better. But, that's just me.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1322803441' post='2859014']
For everyone calling RIA cowards, you're clearly retarded. There are many reasons for people to single out and hate SF, but that's just because you most likely jumped on the bandwagon. RIA is an alliance, about 8 months ago who attacked both sides of a war to help us out in Rok when we came in for Polar. I can never call them a coward because they sacrificed so we could make our stand. Every other one of our 22 treaties said no. In fact, Sparta lied to all of our gov when confronted about it. Well that was Hyperion, and he was a coward. I hold no love for most of SF, i'll admit that, but if people want them so bad go and hit them. But don't call them cowards because you're too afraid to start your own war. RIA is some of the best allies you can have and I'll never forget what they did for Rok, but if you can sit here and think that not entering this war is RIA's decision alone, you're crazy.
[/quote]
Past actions don't excuse current actions.

Entering or not entering isn't their decision alone but signing a MDP with NpO on the eve of this was?

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1322804322' post='2859035']
I believe that's called putting an ally before a coalition, but I understand where you're coming from.
[/quote]
It's also called lying to your other allies.

And may I remind you that \m/ went to bat as best they could (lol) with threats of disbandment from PC/iFOK/SLCB?

[flak attack]

[quote name='Londo Mollari' timestamp='1322804750' post='2859047']certainly more entertaining than what actually happened.
[/quote]
Nothing I have ever experienced in this world was as fun as the buildup for and fight against TOP, IRON and friends. As this point I'm here because I got my fix once and now I'm hooked in a vain hope that someone else might decide to actually put up some effort into getting a competition to rival us like they did. Hell, we're even handicapping ourselves at times to give them a shot.

Sure, we could have worked to build a super bloc consisting of SF, XX, PB, DH and CnG, but that would just be boring.

Edited December 2, 2011 by flak attack

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1322804893' post='2859050']
It's also called lying to your other allies.

And may I remind you that \m/ went to bat as best they could (lol) with threats of disbandment from PC/iFOK/SLCB?
[/quote]

So did the 57th Overlanders. We don't forget. But there is a difference between 5 and 6 guys, and a large top 25 alliance with lots of treaties.

@Azaghul, TOP has been saying this for almost 2 years now, I honestly was surprised to see it actually come to fruition. I mean we signed with NSO like 36 hours before the Legion incident. And I believe past actions tell alot about an alliance, and by your standards of past actions don't excuse current ones, TOP would never have hit Polar, right?

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1322803441' post='2859014']
For everyone calling RIA cowards, you're clearly retarded. There are many reasons for people to single out and hate SF, but that's just because you most likely jumped on the bandwagon. RIA is an alliance, about 8 months ago who attacked both sides of a war to help us out in Rok when we came in for Polar. I can never call them a coward because they sacrificed so we could make our stand. Every other one of our 22 treaties said no. In fact, Sparta lied to all of our gov when confronted about it. Well that was Hyperion, and he was a coward. I hold no love for most of SF, i'll admit that, but if people want them so bad go and hit them. But don't call them cowards because you're too afraid to start your own war. RIA is some of the best allies you can have and I'll never forget what they did for Rok, but if you can sit here and think that not entering this war is RIA's decision alone, you're crazy.
[/quote]
Deciding to fight on both sides of a war is just stupid. Regardless of that retarded act, it did show that RIA had some courage in them. After seeing that display the only logical reason that they haven't entered this war already is because Polar specifically told them not to.

This begs the question. If NpO told RIA to stay out why didn't they tell STA and UPN the same? Why let STA/UPN burn and not RIA?

Edit: New possible angle! RIA and Fark have decided not to enter into this war because deep down they approve of our war, CB and whatever surrenders terms (or lack there of) that we give to their treaty partner.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Feanor Noldorin

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1322804370' post='2859036']
That one in particular we all mostly put on Rok though, not RIA.
[/quote]


[quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1322804444' post='2859038']
That's not why we chose to come to Polar's aid at all. It's semantics though.

And yeah, we did mess up the whole coalition plan. Blame our dysfunctional (and thankfully since revamped) government.
[/quote]


[quote name='Emperor Whimsical' timestamp='1322804554' post='2859042']
Blame Tautology.
[/quote]


All reasonable enough points to the situation. I do think I see it from both sides, which is like I said why I tend to be a little more understanding.


[quote name='Derwood1' timestamp='1322804691' post='2859045']
IIRC RIA $%&@ed up most of the coalitions plans along with the rest of SF during the last biggie.

As far as the current war goes; I never would have thought UPN would be more standup then RIA. I guess FARK will only let you zip your pants on the side....pretty sad.

O/ UPN you have proved to be good allies, RIA needs to take note.
[/quote]

And yes, at some point SF either got paranoid or figured that they were next and started screwing stuff up in a way that looked like it was on purpose. Like I said, lots of high level butthurt. And one way or the other, it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Had I been super active still at the time, I would have at some point tried to smooth things over and to get everyone to not kill each other. I was really a fan of the whole SG thing, and as someone pointed out in another thread, sort of one of the people who arranged that marriage in teh first place. .



I guess in the end I hope that you people who are still really politically active are enjoying this political dynamic and the way the world works now. I think the world would have been (and maybe be) a lot more fun if another ex-Heg or other alliance was "next" on the list every month, and there were undercurrents of dissension that might lead to another Karma if we at the top didn't keep an eye out and keep them snuffed out without getting too paranoid about each other.... I think that would be a lot less boring than what goes on now. But who knows. We all made our choice, and that isn't what we decided to do. So be it.

[Neo Uruk]

[quote name='Joe Stupid' timestamp='1322805131' post='2859065']
So did the 57th Overlanders. We don't forget. But there is a difference between 5 and 6 guys, and a large top 25 alliance with lots of treaties.
[/quote]
How big was SLCB again? Could have easily been killed off tbh. But you (being RoK) put yourself in the position where nobody wanted to help. RIA was loyal, sure, but taking easy-enough fronts isn't exactly brave tbh.

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1322805138' post='2859066']
Deciding to fight on both sides of a war is just stupid. Regardless of that retarded act, it did show that RIA had some courage in them. After seeing that display the only logical reason that they haven't entered this war already is because Polar specifically told them not to.

This begs the question. If NpO told RIA to stay out why didn't they tell STA and UPN the same? Why let STA/UPN burn and not RIA?
[/quote]

I don't even consider STA and NpO separate alliances at this point. NpO could yell at them until they turned bleu (cwatididthur) and they would still come in. I consider STA the most honorable alliance on Planet Bob(probably not the smartest though), they've taken more beatings for Polar more then most alliances lose wars. I can't even begin to question UPN, but if NpO took a chance on signing with them while the rest of the entire world mocked UPN, I would be grateful to Polar.

[Londo Mollari]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1322804999' post='2859053']
Nothing I have ever experienced in this world was as fun as the buildup for and fight against TOP, IRON and friends. As this point I'm here because I got my fix once and now I'm hooked in a vain hope that someone else might decide to actually put up some effort into getting a competition to rival us like they did. Hell, we're even handicapping ourselves at times to give them a shot.

Sure, we could have worked to build a super bloc consisting of SF, XX, PB, DH and CnG, but that would just be boring.
[/quote]


I guess that's true, but I think a lot of people were a lot more into the one war a month thing, and most of those people have quit playing cause the world got too boring for them. I guess you can't make everyone happy. And ultimately I don't think that the huge superbloc thing would be any more boring than what we've got now... it certainly wasn't a boring situation for the last one, which eventually broke up and got its founders ravaged more severely than anyone ever was before. They had to stay on their toes all the time as top dogs for sure. AND they got the monthly wars.

[Joe Stupid]

[quote name='Neo Uruk' timestamp='1322805401' post='2859085']
How big was SLCB again? Could have easily been killed off tbh. But you (being RoK) put yourself in the position where nobody wanted to help. RIA was loyal, sure, but taking easy-enough fronts isn't exactly brave tbh.
[/quote]

Doesn't matter the size, it was the fact that they were willing to throw away whatever coalition planning was going on to help us out.

[Diabloz]

Menotoah joins the war, RIA you really have set an all time low!

Sentinel has more courage than SF

Congrats SF on such an accomplishment, we will make sure we will never forget this accomplishment