A new Declaration from The Order of the Paradox

[Voytek]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322597449' post='2856023']You go girl.[/quote]
please leave

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='Caliph' timestamp='1322426546' post='2853964']
Incorrect. \m/ was the most hated alliance then, hated for telling Grub no when Grub came to us in a manner provoking war. Most every other alliance would have told Grub the same thing, no, except we were universally hated for it. Both then and in the TOP/C&G part of the war where people wanted us to help out GOONS, the same GOONS who watched us burn for an action we took part in together.

Sure TOP wasn't liked back then, but \m/ was universally hated by the vast majority of the alliances here at that time.
[/quote]I talking about only NpO. TOP and TSO were much more hated than \m/.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322597449' post='2856023']
I would question why however given your relative power versus our relative position to the contrary you couldn't have done this much much earlier.
[/quote]

Maybe to wait til you rebuilt after your last war so you would actually have nations in range?

[Voytek]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1322597879' post='2856026']
I talking about only NpO. TOP and TSO were much more hated than \m/.
[/quote]
tso was still hated but i remember a lot of positive sentiment for top (especially when played off against the growing tensions with MK)

stop, ryan

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='medic32' timestamp='1322596703' post='2856016']
And that my friends really is the saddest part of all this...Says an enormous amount of the quality of people around here.
[/quote]

Doesn't it, though? We've cornered ourselves in with such a cumbersome and stagnant definition of a "casus belli" that there is no room for movement in politics anymore. For people !@#$%*ing about using a 2 year old CB, maybe they should instead take a closer look at the 6 year old informal model by which we govern ourselves by.

[Ryan Greenberg]

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1322598036' post='2856030']
tso was still hated but i remember a lot of positive sentiment for top (especially when played off against the growing tensions with MK)

stop, ryan
[/quote]You're right that sentiment started to change for TOP/MK during the war, and for good reasoning too. I believe Caliph was talking about pre-war however.

[Varianz]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1322598521' post='2856035']
Doesn't it, though? We've cornered ourselves in with such a cumbersome and stagnant definition of a "casus belli" that there is no room for movement in politics anymore. For people !@#$%*ing about using a 2 year old CB, maybe they should instead take a closer look at the 6 year old informal model by which we govern ourselves by.
[/quote]
Completely this. We all complain about stagnation, well, there's stagnation because we cling to useless, outdated traditions and ideas.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Varianz

[TehChron]

You know, Ive been saying this since my return from unknown lands, but I think it bears repeating:

Purely in the interests of having fun, what's wrong with being a hypocrite? Really? All that really matters is what you're doing right now, not what you did 3 years ago. Unless you still would do the same thing, which is why some people are facing their current predicament.

[pezstar]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322597449' post='2856023']
It is true, there is no intention of anything at all, just my honest position. I will never deny you have a CB more justifiable than most, '' I hate your guts'' is perfectly legitimate in my eyes. I would question why however given your relative power versus our relative position to the contrary you couldn't have done this much much earlier.

Have fun at it.

@ Pezstar, seriously? You go girl.
[/quote]

I think it's a legitimate question. I can't say that STA is fighting a losing war because of your actions, because it's not entirely true. We have had 2 years to cancel the treaty if we didn't want to fight this war. Everyone has known this war would happen eventually. I can, however, say that you, not a metaphorical you, YOU GRUB, have cost both your alliance and mine dearly in ways you may never even have considered. You tainted NpOs name so badly that merely remaining treatied to Polaris is a sacrifice every one of your friends has had to make. There are several alliances we've become close to, but every time the treaty word starts getting discussed, it always ALWAYS comes down to "We just can't do it while you're allied to Polaris. They're too much of a liability." Polaris had a similar issue. Part of the reason they were unable to overcome the damage you caused was that you tainted their name so badly it was a struggle to even get people to listen to what they had to say.

There are still, to this day, members of STA who don't trust Polaris. I doubt they ever will. Before Bipolar, our relationship was as close to perfect as it could be among treaty partners. Hell, we were closer than treaty partners. Now, I have to defend our ongoing relationship with you to members of my alliance every time we discuss you. Our friendship will be forever tainted. YOU did that. That is 100% on you.

The part where we have a hard time making friends is not entirely on you. We could have chosen to cancel the treaty. We didn't. We accept that risk. The part where Polaris has had a hard time making friends is not entirely on you. I'm positive that if they had merely kicked you out and decried your actions, they could have been permitted to make amends. You, however, made a conscious choice to put everyone in that position to begin with, and that is 100% on you. And the very worst part of it all? You're not even sorry. You have the audacity to come to the OWF and BOAST about it, as though you're proud of what you did. $%&@ you, Grub. I'm JEALOUS of the nations who get the honor of fighting you in this war.

Edited November 29, 2011 by pezstar

[Bodvar Jarl]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322597449' post='2856023']
It is true, there is no intention of anything at all, just my honest position. I will never deny you have a CB more justifiable than most, '' I hate your guts'' is perfectly legitimate in my eyes. I would question why however given your relative power versus our relative position to the contrary you couldn't have done this much much earlier.
[/quote]

Why this did not happen earlier? Because the time was not right earlier. We're not about to sacrifice our relative position just to screw you over. You're not worth that. Hence the wait.

[Voytek]

[quote name='Ryan Greenberg' timestamp='1322598787' post='2856041']
You're right that sentiment started to change for TOP/MK during the war, and for good reasoning too. I believe Caliph was talking about pre-war however.
[/quote]
Sentiment was changing well before the war, sorry

[flak attack]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1322599081' post='2856046']I can, however, say that you, not a metaphorical you, YOU GRUB, have cost both your alliance and mine dearly in ways you may never even have considered. You tainted NpOs name so badly that merely remaining treatied to Polaris is a sacrifice every one of your friends has had to make.[/quote]
I feel like I should support this saying that MK's fallout with a lot of the BLEU KREU had it's root in our inability to trust or work with NpO.

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1322599081' post='2856046']
I think it's a legitimate question. I can't say that STA is fighting a losing war because of your actions, because it's not entirely true. We have had 2 years to cancel the treaty if we didn't want to fight this war. Everyone has known this war would happen eventually. I can, however, say that you, not a metaphorical you, YOU GRUB, have cost both your alliance and mine dearly in ways you may never even have considered. You tainted NpOs name so badly that merely remaining treatied to Polaris is a sacrifice every one of your friends has had to make. There are several alliances we've become close to, but every time the treaty word starts getting discussed, it always ALWAYS comes down to "We just can't do it while you're allied to Polaris. They're too much of a liability." Polaris had a similar issue. Part of the reason they were unable to overcome the damage you caused was that you tainted their name so badly it was a struggle to even get people to listen to what they had to say.

There are still, to this day, members of STA who don't trust Polaris. I doubt they ever will. Before Bipolar, our relationship was as close to perfect as it could be among treaty partners. Hell, we were closer than treaty partners. Now, I have to defend our ongoing relationship with you to members of my alliance every time we discuss you. Our friendship will be forever tainted. YOU did that. That is 100% on you.

The part where we have a hard time making friends is not entirely on you. We could have chosen to cancel the treaty. We didn't. We accept that risk. The part where Polaris has had a hard time making friends is not entirely on you. I'm positive that if they had merely kicked you out and decried your actions, they could have been permitted to make amends. You, however, made a conscious choice to put everyone in that position to begin with, and that is 100% on you. And the very worst part of it all? You're not even sorry. You have the audacity to come to the OWF and BOAST about it, as though you're proud of what you did. $%&@ you, Grub. I'm JEALOUS of the nations who get the honor of fighting you in this war.
[/quote]

Pez, I don't want to do this with you, it isn't fun when you have so much to lose if we start. I accept almost everything you say as a pretty accurate position. You have had 2 years to ask Penguin or Random to request that I leave. IF they had of asked I would have and still will.

I will not be repentant, I will not. I have admitted my actions, I am not hiding from them. I know the consequences of my actions and yet I am still happy with the decisions I made despite the consequences. Would you prefer that I not be happy? Would you prefer me to say I don't think it was one of the more amusing things I have ever done?

Polaris values its treaty with STA, always has and always will, but I can not undo what is done and nor would I if I had the magic chance to do so. I realize it has a cost, I knew it would at the time. I was never naive.

[OOC]I know it hurt a lot from a political POV, but something exciting needed to happen. That mess is still 2 years later a central part of the game. Maybe if someone did something remotely interesting in this game instead of signing treaties with everyone and their dog and got on with screwing each other more regularly, everyone would get over it a little faster. People complain about being bored but they do not do anything to make it interesting. Even TOP rolling Polar is about as interesting and innovative as watching paint dry. Liven up people, the game used to be a lot faster, now it is glacial.[/OOC]

[The Warrior]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322597449' post='2856023']
@ Pezstar, seriously? You go girl.
[/quote]

Insulting your allies is not good foreign policy. Even if you don't care, I'm sure the rest of Polaris does not appreciate it.

[pezstar]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322600335' post='2856059']
Pez, I don't want to do this with you, it isn't fun when you have so much to lose if we start. I accept almost everything you say as a pretty accurate position. You have had 2 years to ask Penguin or Random to request that I leave. IF they had of asked I would have and still will.

I will not be repentant, I will not. I have admitted my actions, I am not hiding from them. I know the consequences of my actions and yet I am still happy with the decisions I made despite the consequences. Would you prefer that I not be happy? Would you prefer me to say I don't think it was one of the more amusing things I have ever done?

Polaris values its treaty with STA, always has and always will, but I can not undo what is done and nor would I if I had the magic chance to do so. I realize it has a cost, I knew it would at the time. I was never naive.

[OOC]I know it hurt a lot from a political POV, but something exciting needed to happen. That mess is still 2 years later a central part of the game. Maybe if someone did something remotely interesting in this game instead of signing treaties with everyone and their dog and got on with screwing each other more regularly, everyone would get over it a little faster. People complain about being bored but they do not do anything to make it interesting. Even TOP rolling Polar is about as interesting and innovative as watching paint dry. Liven up people, the game used to be a lot faster, now it is glacial.[/OOC]
[/quote]


Every single one of your points are correct, and it's part of what is so frustrating about the whole situation. I KNOW it was fun for you, but it wasn't fun for STA. That, more than anything else in our history, really, really cut us to the core.

I don't really want to do this with you either. It's not fair to either of our alliances.

[NoMercy]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322600335' post='2856059']


[OOC]I know it hurt a lot from a political POV, but something exciting needed to happen. That mess is still 2 years later a central part of the game. Maybe if someone did something remotely interesting in this game instead of signing treaties with everyone and their dog and got on with screwing each other more regularly, everyone would get over it a little faster. People complain about being bored but they do not do anything to make it interesting. Even TOP rolling Polar is about as interesting and innovative as watching paint dry. Liven up people, the game used to be a lot faster, now it is glacial.[/OOC]
[/quote]

I agree.

(that was hard. I need a beer or a scotch.)

You are having grudges for years. You [i]still[/i] hate us, for things happened in 2008. That's fine with us, I always said that you are a great enemy and without you, we wouldn't have had half of then fun. People will treat you, like you treat them.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322600335' post='2856059']
[OOC]I know it hurt a lot from a political POV, but something exciting needed to happen. That mess is still 2 years later a central part of the game. Maybe if someone did something remotely interesting in this game instead of signing treaties with everyone and their dog and got on with screwing each other more regularly, everyone would get over it a little faster. People complain about being bored but they do not do anything to make it interesting. Even TOP rolling Polar is about as interesting and innovative as watching paint dry. Liven up people, the game used to be a lot faster, now it is glacial.[/OOC]
[/quote]
On the other hand, if you didn't want to make "this mess" central to the game for two more years, maybe you could have worked with us in that coalition you had started to take a good hit at raiders. It would have created a much different dynamic (game wise, not only for TOP and NpO) and one that couldn't have been worse than this one, that is almost sure. Virtually all the "we don't like you" wars wouldn't have happened, for one.

You didn't work to make it happen anyway. You just took an opportunity. Don't preach about imagination. You didn't have any and your goals were visibly short-sighted as you cost your alliance so much in terms of political capital and NS that you would have been better off disbanding, if it wasn't for your community.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Sardonic]

I think Pezstar raises a very good point. It was because of Grub's asinine condescending posts that the GOONS government of the time felt the need to cancel, we shed no tears when they cancelled on us for entering in defense of umbrella.

It's a pity really, NpO has people who could serve as a public face. Dajobo, Penguin, and even Random would be suitable for it. Yet all we see from Polaris these days is D34th and Grub. And Grub, you're even worse than D34th. At least D34th never wasted anyone's time with massive self-aggrandizing walls of text.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Sardonic

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='NoMercy' timestamp='1322561970' post='2855760']
I don't get what the problem is.

Grub feigned being a friend to TOP, which is why TOP preempted CnG in his interest. TOP felt betrayed, and Grub still thinks it was an awesome move, which is why his group of mindless sycophants is getting stomped.

[b]Now his Members, especially Mr. Fool try to argue, that said group cannot be held responsible for the actions of one leader, not taking into consideration he is still in said alliance and still admired. [/b]

They also try to make the world believe, that they have tried to improve relations. I haven't seen a Polar on TSO boards not insulting us, so I assume, you didn't try hard enough. I guess we get a different treatment by you guys anyway, which is probably the best thing that happened to us in a while. The claim NpO is trustable in any way must be a joke. You are self-serving and too dependent on bloated egos like yours, Randoms or Sponges. History repeats. We actually knew that back in 2008.
[/quote]


Don't forget the fact that many in that alliance including himself felt a need to make hitting TOP nations, while still at war with both sides a priority. The majority of NpO's declarations from NATION MEMBERS were on TOP once Grub declared. But ya, wasn't their fault. LOL

[ChimpMasterFlash]

Grub I'm curious...

After Polar is destroyed, what alliance will you join?

After joining said alliance, will you try and reform Polar a year or two later?

If yes, Will you ask GOONS to be a protectorate?

Curious minds want to know

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Chalaskan' timestamp='1322608940' post='2856150']
Don't forget the fact that many in that alliance including himself felt a need to make hitting TOP nations, while still at war with both sides a priority. The majority of NpO's declarations from NATION MEMBERS were on TOP once Grub declared. But ya, wasn't their fault. LOL
[/quote]


I have no vested interest in who's right or wrong, tbh I just don't care. But you can't band a simple soldier in with that category, they were most likely following orders. The people that gave the orders to solely focus on you, sure. But following orders is following orders. So while you couldn't condone his governments actions you can't really apply that to a follower.

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='ChimpMasterFlash' timestamp='1322609298' post='2856156']
Grub I'm curious...

After Polar is destroyed, what alliance will you join?

After joining said alliance, will you try and reform Polar a year or two later?

If yes, Will you ask GOONS to be a protectorate?

Curious minds want to know
[/quote]

Your line of thought crashes at the first hurdle.

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='ChimpMasterFlash' timestamp='1322609298' post='2856156']
Grub I'm curious...

After Polar is destroyed, what alliance will you join?
[/quote]

Whichever alliance is responsible for Polar's destruction, perhaps?

[AlmightyGrub]

[quote name='The Warrior' timestamp='1322601764' post='2856089']
Insulting your allies is not good foreign policy. Even if you don't care, I'm sure the rest of Polaris does not appreciate it.
[/quote]

The irony of your statement is overwhelming...you really are that keen to have a go at me aren't you

[Believland]

[quote name='AlmightyGrub' timestamp='1322610979' post='2856174']
The irony of your statement is overwhelming...you really are that keen to have a go at me aren't you
[/quote]

Do you really think that you're actually keen?