A new Declaration from The Order of the Paradox

[Jens of the desert]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1322599081' post='2856046']
Snip
[/quote]
I never really followed you very closely, pez, but by the end of the post I just wanted to do an air punch out of happiness that you and STA actually feel this way and don't appreciate Grub acting like he is.

Good on you.

Jens

2500th post, too, you should be honoured.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Jens of the desert

[Kalasin]

[quote name='NoMercy' timestamp='1322675510' post='2857096']
He didn't. IIRC I wasn't directly involved in the talks, but I remember that Crymson was the spokesman, not the decision maker. So, if you want to blame it on somebody, you can blame it on all Q-alliances (except Grämlins) but not TOP alone.
[/quote]

Sure. I'm not saying TOP was solely responsible. I'm simply saying that those logs aren't forged and people really were forced out of government.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1322696637' post='2857345']
Sure. I'm not saying TOP was solely responsible. I'm simply saying that those logs aren't forged and people really were forced out of government.
[/quote]
They aren't forged. We recognized them as valid both in private and in public. We simply pointed out that those terms were not only TOP's doing. That's about it. As for our part, we never shied away from it.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1322697804' post='2857363']
They aren't forged. We recognized them as valid both in private and in public.
[/quote]

Yeah exactly. It's just some other guy made some asinine post where he accused Dajobo of forgery, so I corrected him.

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1322697804' post='2857363']
We simply pointed out that those terms were not only TOP's doing. That's about it. As for our part, we never shied away from it.
[/quote]

Here we are agreed.

[Stormsend]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1322630240' post='2856469']
No thanks, much best to lose infra and tech than self-respect.
[/quote]
You're certainly accomplishing one of those.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Stormsend

[FlogYou]

[quote name='Stormsend' timestamp='1322704135' post='2857431']
You're certainly accomplishing one of those.
[/quote]


I voted both, does that make me wrong?

[Stormsend]

[quote name='FlogYou' timestamp='1322704323' post='2857433']
I voted both, does that make me wrong?
[/quote]
I'm sure there's plenty of [i]self[/i]-respect to go around.

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1322686072' post='2857222']
So anyone who joined NpO after the fact is banded in with the folks who committed this terrible, terrible, tragic betrayal (over dramatized for full effect)?

I really don't care about NpO, I think Grub is a dick as much as the next guy. But I can just see a slight bit of difference from the folks who actively encouraged the smashing of TOP and those who followed orders or joined after the fact. There are many things that make a member stay within an alliance that may out weight that of a bad decision they didn't agree with at the time, Community, friends, familiarity, that doesn't make every single one of them dicks or guilty because they stayed.


edited for the weird filter saying.
[/quote]

I don't believe I have ever stated all in that alliance are evil, or dicks, or guilty. Just that the majority of the alliance agreed with what Grub did, and was happy to fight against TOP and smear it in our face. Your tantrums stating I can go on crying about injustices done years ago, and how the whole alliance should not pay for the crime are irrelevant to the point.

The alliance did this, and this is our first real opportunity to do what we have said we would since it happened. Attack that ALLIANCE. Everyone and their mother knew it was coming. The time is here.

If you are so hard headed to dismiss what seems like common knowledge to everyone else, I give up trying to convince you. You are more than welcome to join them and fight for what injustice you see, as I did 2 years ago. Otherwise, keep talking your drivel from afar.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Chalaskan

[Heft]

[quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1322598521' post='2856035']
Doesn't it, though? We've cornered ourselves in with such a cumbersome and stagnant definition of a "casus belli" that there is no room for movement in politics anymore. For people !@#$%*ing about using a 2 year old CB, maybe they should instead take a closer look at the 6 year old informal model by which we govern ourselves by.
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure resorting to a 2 year old CB, or waiting 2 years to actually act on the damn thing, is a sign itself of stagnation.

Declaring war because "$%&@ you for that thing you did way back when" is terrible for politics, because it's so bland and base and boring. Are we supposed to argue about BiPolar again, for the billionth time? Grub was an idiot and Polar screwed everyone and it was a !@#$%* thing to do. Either act on the damn thing or let it go.

If you're going to wait this long to get your "revenge" then it would be much more interesting if some actual politics were involved, if some actual diplomatic work had to be done and politicking was in play or something. This is just boring and rote. But the biggest problem isn't that it's just an empty revenge CB, but that apparently our politics are so stagnant that they're still dominated and determined by what happened at the beginning of 2010.

You say that the old model leaves no room for movement in politics, but I say that this model leaves no politics of consequence.

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1322716805' post='2857675']
If you're going to wait this long to get your "revenge" then it would be much more interesting if some actual politics were involved, if some actual diplomatic work had to be done and politicking was in play or something. This is just boring and rote. But the biggest problem isn't that it's just an empty revenge CB, but that apparently our politics are so stagnant that they're still dominated and determined by what happened at the beginning of 2010.
[/quote]

If you really think there hasn't been political maneuvering and diplomatic work done, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Open your eyes man. Look at where people are sitting these days. And I only complain about the archaic definition of a casus belli because good luck finding one of those these days. People have figured out how to properly play by the rules we live under, therefore keeping themselves from becoming exposed.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1322716805' post='2857675']
I'm pretty sure resorting to a 2 year old CB, or waiting 2 years to actually act on the damn thing, is a sign itself of stagnation.

Declaring war because "$%&@ you for that thing you did way back when" is terrible for politics, because it's so bland and base and boring. Are we supposed to argue about BiPolar again, for the billionth time? Grub was an idiot and Polar screwed everyone and it was a !@#$%* thing to do. Either act on the damn thing or let it go.

If you're going to wait this long to get your "revenge" then it would be much more interesting if some actual politics were involved, if some actual diplomatic work had to be done and politicking was in play or something. This is just boring and rote. But the biggest problem isn't that it's just an empty revenge CB, but that apparently our politics are so stagnant that they're still dominated and determined by what happened at the beginning of 2010.

You say that the old model leaves no room for movement in politics, but I say that this model leaves no politics of consequence.
[/quote]
If you think no politics were involved, take a look at where TOP stood politically in April 2010 and where we stand right now.

[bzelger]

I'm late to the party, but thank you for an honest CB. Perhaps the first one in history where the aggressor is not accused of ulterior motives.

I think that of all the people who suffered abuse at the hands of Polar's BiPolar move, you have the smallest claim to offense, which amuses me a little. Can't say that I don't see your point of view though. I hope this war cleanses some of the extra bile.

[Heft]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1322717819' post='2857700']
If you think no politics were involved, take a look at where TOP stood politically in April 2010 and where we stand right now.
[/quote]
Congratulations, you made friends and no waves while your chosen rivals basically stood still. Thrilling. This isn't even necessarily a criticism of TOP, just of the idea that somehow launching a war like this is either setting a positive precedent or in some way positively altering norms or whatever. Have fun and at least we're finally getting this out of the way but, eh.

[Hiro Nakara]

[quote name='Chalaskan' timestamp='1322707542' post='2857498']
I don't believe I have ever stated all in that alliance are evil, or dicks, or guilty. Just that the majority of the alliance agreed with what Grub did, and was happy to fight against TOP and smear it in our face. Your tantrums stating I can go on crying about injustices done years ago, and how the whole alliance should not pay for the crime are irrelevant to the point.

The alliance did this, and this is our first real opportunity to do what we have said we would since it happened. Attack that ALLIANCE. Everyone and their mother knew it was coming. The time is here.

If you are so hard headed to dismiss what seems like common knowledge to everyone else, I give up trying to convince you. You are more than welcome to join them and fight for what injustice you see, as I did 2 years ago. Otherwise, keep talking your drivel from afar.
[/quote]

No you see, there was a part in there where i said I really don't care for either alliances, that would be yours included, you're right. You are wasting your time trying to convince me of something I couldn't give a flying $%&@ about, As long as you two damage each other I'm happy.

You can go back to bawwing about how hard done by you were years ago and how stupid you were for giving so much control over your alliance to someone who hated you. Genius move btw. U MAD because it don't play out the way you wanted or U MAD about just being stupid enough to get caught out like that? Seems a mixture of both.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1322719430' post='2857860']
Congratulations, you made friends and no waves while your chosen rivals basically stood still. Thrilling. This isn't even necessarily a criticism of TOP, just of the idea that somehow launching a war like this is either setting a positive precedent or in some way positively altering norms or whatever. Have fun and at least we're finally getting this out of the way but, eh.
[/quote]

Well please take over an alliance and thrill us all with the new excitement you will surely bring. Did you ever think it's practically impossible to go back to the way things were? It's just the stage we are at in this world and the only thing left to do is try to destroy the alliances you hate. Sure beats trying to maintain the status quo or w/e else there is to do.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Vladimir Stukov II

[Leftbehind]

[quote name='Vladimir Stukov II' timestamp='1322723460' post='2857961']
Well please take over an alliance and thrill us all with the new excitement you will surely bring. Did you ever think it's practically impossible to go back to the way things were? It's just the stage we are at in this world and [b]the only thing left to do is try to destroy the alliances you hate[/b]. Sure beats trying to maintain the status quo or w/e else there is to do.
[/quote]

That isn't new at all. Ever since I've been apart of this world the wars have been based on destroying a hated alliances, in fact it should be the fuel that drives politics. I'd prefer if you guys used a better CB then getting your feelings hurt two years ago but thats just me.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='Left_Behind' timestamp='1322724682' post='2857990']
That isn't new at all. Ever since I've been apart of this world the wars have been based on destroying a hated alliances, in fact it should be the fuel that drives politics. I'd prefer if you guys used a better CB then getting your feelings hurt two years ago but thats just me.
[/quote]

Yea... A better CB like, "OMG POLAR SPIED ON US!" I'd like to think this is an improvement over the manufactured CBs that were so common in the past. Can you tell me a better reason to declare war than to destroy an alliance you despise?

[Kiss Goodbye]

I can think of no better topic to make a final post with my account on these forums. I kept it in existence entirely to say this one thing.

You make me proud, Yevgeni. I always knew you would lead us.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Kiss Goodbye

[Leet Guy]

[quote name='Left_Behind' timestamp='1322724682' post='2857990']
I'd prefer if you guys used a better CB then getting your feelings hurt two years ago but thats just me.
[/quote]

Hear that TOP? Get over your stupid feelings. It's not like there was any other repercussions from that war. Nope.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1322716805' post='2857675']
I'm pretty sure resorting to a 2 year old CB, or waiting 2 years to actually act on the damn thing, is a sign itself of stagnation.

Declaring war because "$%&@ you for that thing you did way back when" is terrible for politics, because it's so bland and base and boring. Are we supposed to argue about BiPolar again, for the billionth time? Grub was an idiot and Polar screwed everyone and it was a !@#$%* thing to do. Either act on the damn thing or let it go.

If you're going to wait this long to get your "revenge" then it would be much more interesting if some actual politics were involved, if some actual diplomatic work had to be done and politicking was in play or something. This is just boring and rote. But the biggest problem isn't that it's just an empty revenge CB, but that apparently our politics are so stagnant that they're still dominated and determined by what happened at the beginning of 2010.

You say that the old model leaves no room for movement in politics, but I say that this model leaves no politics of consequence.
[/quote]

Politics werent involved? Are you kidding me? This is a political masterwork. TOP was the most despised and hated alliance after bipolar, now they get to stomp the faces of Polaris in one more time and everyone applauds their move.
I agree thats its kinda boring and rote, but it's still the most exciting thing that is happening right now. That says more about everyone else than it does about TOP. NSO for example, always likes to talk like a big guy, yet hasnt done anything worth remembering for said last 2 years. Getting revenge on Polaris was their thing, everybody knew it, and they followed through on it. The current situation is also a proof that it doesnt matter how clear you are on your intent, theres always someone just not getting it. RIA for example.
They signed an MDP with Polaris and yet they still seem to be utterly baffled at this war, taking 5 days now to make preparations that should have been done the second the thought of a treaty with polaris appeared.

[Bodvar Jarl]

[quote name='Left_Behind' timestamp='1322724682' post='2857990']
That isn't new at all. Ever since I've been apart of this world the wars have been based on destroying a hated alliances, in fact it should be the fuel that drives politics. I'd prefer if you guys used a better CB then getting your feelings hurt two years ago but thats just me.
[/quote]

So instead of stating the real reason as to why we go to war, we should fabricate some pretext that is only slightly more questionable than the one used by the aggressor in the preceding war?

We believe ourselves justified to wage war on Polar based on their actions back then, a large portion of Digiterra shares that view with us, and a window of opportunity to make it happen just opened up.

I'll take that over the standard Digeterran ad-hoc CB at any time.

[Heft]

[quote name='HellAngel' timestamp='1322765285' post='2858332']
Politics werent involved? Are you kidding me? This is a political masterwork. TOP was the most despised and hated alliance after bipolar, now they get to stomp the faces of Polaris in one more time and everyone applauds their move.
I agree thats its kinda boring and rote, but it's still the most exciting thing that is happening right now. That says more about everyone else than it does about TOP. NSO for example, always likes to talk like a big guy, yet hasnt done anything worth remembering for said last 2 years. Getting revenge on Polaris was their thing, everybody knew it, and they followed through on it. The current situation is also a proof that it doesnt matter how clear you are on your intent, theres always someone just not getting it. RIA for example.
They signed an MDP with Polaris and yet they still seem to be utterly baffled at this war, taking 5 days now to make preparations that should have been done the second the thought of a treaty with polaris appeared.
[/quote]
NSO has done more than Gramlins has, since I keep forgetting that you bothered to reform.

But yes, I agree that if this is the best that people can come up with then that's pretty sad. And RIA are kind of dumb.

[raasaa]

you waited 2 years for this......seriously.....sheesh

give em hell polar o/

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1322792362' post='2858813']
you waited 2 years for this......seriously.....sheesh

give em hell polar o/
[/quote]
No. We actually waited ten months. Unfortunately, another alliance decided to hit them in the meantime. We had to wait a bit.

[nutkase]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1322777912' post='2858507']
NSO has done more than Gramlins has, since I keep forgetting that you bothered to reform.

But yes, I agree that if this is the best that people can come up with then that's pretty sad. And RIA are kind of dumb.
[/quote]

1. Hellangel never mentioned our AA, so I don't know where you got that train of thought.

2. NSO has done nothing of late other then get it's head stomped on by what most consider a below par alliance. So if you consider that as "doing more then Grämlins", feel free to do it more often.

Edited December 2, 2011 by nutkase