Polaris Delenda Est

[Beauty]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1322365113' post='2853233']
It was settled long ago. Personally, I was surprised to see NPO in DoS. At first, I honestly thought it was a joke like we had lately where NPO flags were being used for some CnG-related? announcements.
[/quote]


I think NPO was surprised that an alliance in the top 20 declared war and it wasn't on them for once, so they automatically threw support for the winning side in hopes to gain some sort of boost in foreign relations.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1322393710' post='2853644']
I think NPO was surprised that an alliance in the top 20 declared war and it wasn't on them for once, so they automatically threw support for the winning side in hopes to gain some sort of boost in foreign relations.
[/quote]
Does it hurt to be this dense? If not it honestly should

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Derantol' timestamp='1322393359' post='2853642']
We were gunning for CnG then because we were paranoid about being the next big target. There's your self-interest.
[/quote]

I know what your self-interest was, it was just absent from the DoW. Sure, there were the token lines about accepting responsibility for your action and that those actions were your own. They are token when you precede them with lines placing blame wholly on someone else.

[Beauty]

[quote name='wickedj' timestamp='1322393968' post='2853646']
Does it hurt to be this dense? If not it honestly should
[/quote]

Hmm... While im thinking about it... Polaris has been rolled many many of times... this will just be another one. They've taken the hardest beatings ever imagined. Polaris will never die, and has lasted through some of the worst times in the entire Cyber verse.. That deserves a hail from me.

o/ Polaris

Edited November 27, 2011 by Rotavele

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='The Warrior' timestamp='1322376310' post='2853490']
You have been terribly misinformed about history I'm afraid. Ask NPO if we abandoned them. Ask NPO if they ignored their allies and attacked OV against their wishes. Ask NPO if we canceled our treaty inappropriately(i.e. not giving the proper notice of cancellation). There have already been posts made by NPO in these very DoW threads stating that we did not wrong them at the beginning of the Karma War. Do yourself a favor and stop warping history to fit your agenda/argument.

Finally, If you're going to call into question IRON's loyalty or honor, I challenge you to ask any of our allies if they agree. I doubt you'll find one who does.
[/quote]

History has a way of rewriting its self as the situation changes, but I don't care enough to continue arguing about it.

Iron's honor and loyalty will in my mind always be in question until you prove me wrong. Fighting winning wars for an ally does not make you a loyal ally or brave. It is when all hell brakes loose and your the one standing next to them. Iron has never shown that in their history, regardless of how much you wish they had.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Muddog

[Vanilla Napalm]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1322394139' post='2853648']
Hmm... While im thinking about it... Polaris has been rolled many many of times... this will just be another one. They've taken the hardest beatings ever imagined. Polaris will never die, and has lasted through some of the worst times in the entire Cyber verse.. That deserves a hail from me.

o/ Polaris
[/quote]
Oh Wow. I'm not sure it's actually possible to respond to this statement without mocking it. Nicely done.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322394858' post='2853655']
History has a way of rewriting its self as the situation changes, but I don't care enough to continue arguing about it.

Iron's honor and loyalty will in my mind always be in question until you prove me wrong. [b]Fighting winning wars for an ally does not make you a loyal ally or brave[/b]. It is when all hell brakes loose and your the one standing next to them. Iron has never shown that in their history, regardless of how much you wish they had.
[/quote]


IRON - Fighting Winning Wars Since Karma

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1322395313' post='2853658']
IRON - Fighting Winning Wars Since Karma
[/quote]

I never said you were not good fighters....

Edit-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Karma is the only war IRON lost isn't it?

Edited November 27, 2011 by Muddog

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1322394139' post='2853648']
Hmm... While im thinking about it... Polaris has been rolled many many of times... this will just be another one. They've taken the hardest beatings ever imagined. Polaris will never die, and has lasted through some of the worst times in the entire Cyber verse.. That deserves a hail from me.

o/ Polaris
[/quote]
Many alliances have gotten rolled many times. Polar tho specialises in getting rolled for screwing up their partners. Polar not taken anywhere even close to the hardest beatings ever imagined or dished out. Nobody is out to kill Polar. Keep hailing.

[The Pansy]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322395480' post='2853661']
I never said you were not good fighters....

Edit-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Karma is the only war IRON lost isn't it?
[/quote]
How the hell could you forget BiPolar, the thing that this war is about?

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='The Pansy' timestamp='1322395705' post='2853666']
How the hell could you forget BiPolar, the thing that this war is about?
[/quote]

Its easy to forget something I wasn't there for.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='The Pansy' timestamp='1322395705' post='2853666']
How the hell could you forget BiPolar, the thing that this war is about?
[/quote]

Soemthing about forests and trees, I guess.

[The Pansy]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322395750' post='2853667']
Its easy to forget something I wasn't there for.
[/quote]
It's kind of what this war is about.

[Matt Miller]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322395480' post='2853661']
I never said you were not good fighters....

Edit-

[b]Correct me if I'm wrong, but Karma is the only war IRON lost isn't it?[/b]
[/quote]

And that's how you get people to stop taking you seriously...

Edited November 27, 2011 by Matt Miller

[cristoir]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322395480' post='2853661']
I never said you were not good fighters....

Edit-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Karma is the only war IRON lost isn't it?
[/quote]

Did you even read the OP?

For the record the last time IRON [i]won[/i] a war was in 2008.

[The Warrior]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322394858' post='2853655']
History has a way of rewriting its self as the situation changes, but I don't care enough to continue arguing about it.

Iron's honor and loyalty will in my mind always be in question until you prove me wrong. Fighting winning wars for an ally does not make you a loyal ally or brave. It is when all hell brakes loose and your the one standing next to them. Iron has never shown that in their history, regardless of how much you wish they had.
[/quote]

You are the one that is making a wildly unfounded claim. The burden of proof is on you. For that matter, I don't care if you think IRON is disloyal or not. I could care less what somebody, who has no idea about us or are interactions with out allies, thinks.

If you don't think that IRON has been to hell and back for our allies/friends on numerous occasions, then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

And yes, the only war IRON has won since 2008 was the Gramlins fiasco.

Edited November 27, 2011 by The Warrior

[ccabal86]

[quote name='The Warrior' timestamp='1322410489' post='2853770']
And yes, the only war IRON has won since 2008 was the Gramlins fiasco.
[/quote]

Inb4 "But you didn't win that, it was white peace!"

[delgursh]

[quote name='The Warrior' timestamp='1322410489' post='2853770']
You are the one that is making a wildly unfounded claim. The burden of proof is on you. For that matter, I don't care if you think IRON is disloyal or not. I could care less what somebody, who has no idea about us or are interactions with out allies, thinks.

If you don't think that IRON has been to hell and back for our allies/friends on numerous occasions, then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

And yes, the only war IRON has won since 2008 was the Gramlins fiasco.
[/quote]

Haha thats true. SOmeone hasnt been paying attention to CN. I wish we were wrong and we won a few since '08.

We've had our share of ups in our history, but the past few years were a lot of climbing back up.

We're just really good at rebuilding and growing so everyone always thinks we're winning.

Edited November 27, 2011 by delgursh

[deth2munkies]

I had to look up the wiki to actually familiarize myself with this war because it was during one of my "do not care" phases.

I remember the hilariously bad decision to first strike C&G instead of waiting for the treaties to naturally resolve. From what I read here, they were mislead by the fact Grub neglected to tell them that there was peace on the table so they went through with it the same night Polar peaced out.

Funnily enough, the war had become less about \m/ by that point and more about everyone stomping everyone elses' face, with a bunch of old rivalries flared up and everyone having a merry old time. Odds are, there would have been a few conflicts that would last a while after the Polar peace then the war would have died out without affecting IRON, TOP, or C&G.

While yes, Grub was a !@#$% and they probably deserve this, I still have to question the level of anger here when it was your stupid decision to attack in the first place. Let's say polar doesn't peace out and you go through with your attack, it gives you no strategic advantage over the situation whatsoever, and indeed gives legal ground for Polar and a myraid of other non-chaining defensive treaties to be activated where they wouldn't before. It was YOUR $%&@up that caused you to take all that damage, not Polar's. They didn't even skate by with less damage as no one from C&G would have ever fought them directly. If they HADN'T peaced out, the overall damage probably would have been about the same as if they had, you would have taken a massive beating, and they'd have a bit more damage from the 3 they were fighting.

I don't oppose this as a war fought on point of principle, withholding information from "allies" in war is a dick move, but I don't think "we took all this damage we shouldn't have so we're going to dish it back out" is an accurate reason when no matter what had happened, if you went through with your plan, you would have taken that or more.

[Brehon]

Rota you were in the Order, you have seen the Regent updates, so you KNOW first hand we have been talking with IRON you know first hand we were concerned with people pulling us in different directions and thus you were aware we would be making a stand if our allies had the potential to be pulled in different directions. Oh but wait... you are towing a party line and playing dense... wait you are playing right?

[chefjoe]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322352023' post='2853002']
So your forgiven, but Polar has to burn? And don't pretend like they haven't tried to make a mends. The minds of people have a wonderful way of seeing two very similar things in different lights.
[/quote]

Why do they have to forgive them? They obviously feel that no matter what efforts polaris has taken to make amends(if any), they are insufficient in this(and imo many others) alliance's opinion. They are entitled to that, they were among the parties wronged and its for them to set what makes it right again, not YOU muddog. Your condemnation of their opinion on the matter is no different then you trying to force your own views and judgements on the subject. You are entitled to your own opinion, you are entitled to feel that this war is for old and in your opinion expired reasons. You are NOT entitled to tell another sovereign alliance to [u]forgive[/u] something you were not even involved in just because your sense of honor says it should be so, that sir is [b]Dishonorable[/b]...

[Confusion]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322395750' post='2853667']
Its easy to forget something I wasn't there for.
[/quote]

Then why bring up Karma if you weren't here for BiPolar.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1322380862' post='2853545']
I see, so for a few days you've all been spouting about how Polaris knew this was coming and has made no attempts to rectify things from BiPolar, but now you also say that when Polaris came around to apologize before the noCB War it was a transparent attempt to save their own asses and that's why you rejected their overtures. So which is it? You wanted Polaris to try and fix things, or when Polaris tries to fix things they're on auto-reject? My argument isn't weak, you're making it for me and it's quite nice.[/quote]
Schatt, you are confusing two different phases, there.

The first one is the one leading to the WotC. It happened because Polaris - then led by Sponge - had been trying to isolate us and have us killed. Sponge himself was very vocal (even in public) about his desire to see us dead and dance on our graves, as he'd say. When they noticed that they lost the political battle, they came to our boards to try a last effort to make amends and delay what was inevitable. They were, of course, turned down. Let's be frank, you can't maneuver for the destruction of an alliance for close to a year, with your leadership saying they want them dead and then lose the battle behind the scenes and just expect people to make friends. That's when you were a member of Paradoxia for a brief time.

The second phase kicks off around post-Karma, in mid 2009 or so. Polaris started making ouvertures. Both memberships, at that time, were very moralistic. They sent several diplomats to our boards, we had Q&A on their boards and they on ours and we even had one of the most successful AtF (you remember those?) on our boards. They had over 15 diplomats masked on our boards at that time and their efforts were genuine, as far as we were concerned. There were public talks of a treaty between our two alliances and I'm sure those talks were also present behind closed doors.

Unless you are a believer in the "hey, it was a master plan to lure TOP into a false sense of security for over six months and then lead them to do the unthinkable", their efforts had to be sincere and the warming up of relations had to be real. That is why many Polars were confused and baffled when their government did what they did on January 29th 2010.

We did accept the olive branch. You can say it was a bad decision but you can't fault us for not trying to stop this rivalry.

The ball will be in their court at the end of this war.

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1322423505' post='2853925']
Unless you are a believer in the "hey, it was a master plan to lure TOP into a false sense of security for over six months and then [b]lead them to do the unthinkable[/b]", their efforts had to be sincere and the warming up of relations had to be real.
[/quote]
That's never even been true from what I've heard out of TOP/IRON before.

Polar didn't ask you or convince you to do anything, from what I understand, you went to them for approval, to make sure it wouldn't blow back on you, and they said (paraphrased), "Go for it, we won't attack you or anything". It was a deceptive choice of words, but the decision was yours and yours alone. What they did was dickish, they denied you full information about the actions you were undertaking, but they had no part in planning or executing those actions, that was on you.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1322423814' post='2853931']
That's never even been true from what I've heard out of TOP/IRON before.

Polar didn't ask you or convince you to do anything, from what I understand, you went to them for approval, to make sure it wouldn't blow back on you, and they said (paraphrased), "Go for it, we won't attack you or anything". It was a deceptive choice of words, but the decision was yours and yours alone. What they did was dickish, they denied you full information about the actions you were undertaking, but they had no part in planning or executing those actions, that was on you.
[/quote]
Did you miss what I said?

I was saying: [i]"unless you believe that"[/i], then it had to be a real genuine warming up of relations.

Is it clearer?

Edited November 27, 2011 by Yevgeni Luchenkov