Polaris Delenda Est

[Caliph]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322395480' post='2853661']
I never said you were not good fighters....

Edit-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Karma is the only war IRON lost isn't it?
[/quote]
You are wrong. I suggest reading up on the history of CN, especially the wars involving IRON and Polaris, because that is specifically what this DOW by IRON is about. You clearly don't know the history that you tell us how to interpret, by your own statement you weren't there. I was there, and many others were there, and the overwhelming thoughts of people who were there is that IRON has a legitimate grudge on Polaris for their actions in the Bi Polar war. Do your research before telling us how to interpret things that we were here for and you weren't.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1322421531' post='2853895']
I remember the hilariously bad decision to first strike C&G instead of waiting for the treaties to naturally resolve.
[/quote]
If we had waited for the treaties to naturally resolve we would have still lost that war. IRON would have went in support of NSO who was fighting GOD (I think that was the SF member) which would have triggered the rest of Superfriends and their friends. I remember members of FARK and MHA telling me they already had the target list ready and members ready to attack IRON the moment they entered to assist NSO. This large assault on IRON would have brought in us (TOP!). This would have left CnG/others free to engage us on their terms. Sandwiched in between those two blocs and all their friends would have ended in a surefire defeat.

The pre-emptive strike was meant to engage CnG on our terms by using our large amount of high end nations. We would choose the targets which meant their large nations would be absolutely hammered by the end of week one (it worked!). From then one we would continue to attack downwards until their upper tier was destroyed. The reason for all of this was because it was known that CnG/friends were waiting on us to join before making their move.

The pre-emptive strike was a very high risk/high reward move. Their was the chance that in the end it wouldn't work and that we'd still lose. In that case our hope was that we'd atleast go out swinging rather than sitting there and taking it. The strategy from a military/stat standpoint was solid but obviously it was horrible from a political standpoint as it gave Grub the opportunity to pull out of the war.

My personal issues with Grub and therefore the NpO is the deceitful manner in which they conducted themselves. They approved the plan and emphatically stated that MK was considered on the other side of the war and they would receive no help from Polar. Afterwards they went to MK/CnG with our plans and then pulled out of the war an hour or so after we entered. Looking back should we not have put our faith in Polar? Of course not. A very dumb decision on all of our parts and we paid for that mistake. Nevertheless, many of us involved in the pre-emptive strike feel that Polar must pay for their lies. You might not consider that a valid reason for war but we do and that's why this is happening.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Feanor Noldorin

[Heft]

The pre-emptive strike was always controversial and opposed by NSO at the time, mostly because the whole "Strategizing" thing left us and so many others flapping in the breeze for a good week while everyone deliberated, and it just seemed to be an example of you guys outsmarting yourselves. Also it seems to have established a pretty stupid precedent and continued the gradual decline of anyone giving a !@#$ about having a decent political reason for going to war (see: DH/NPO and now this itself). Conjuring up CBs was half the fun, now it's just the popular kid rounding up his friends to beat up the unpopular kid.

But in any case, the pre-emptive strike certainly didn't lose the war, and wasn't anywhere near on par with Grub's sudden bout of staggering and baffling idiocy.

[Feanor Noldorin]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1322427248' post='2853973']
The pre-emptive strike was always controversial and opposed by NSO at the time, mostly because the whole "Strategizing" thing left us and so many others flapping in the breeze for a good week while everyone deliberated, and it just seemed to be an example of you guys outsmarting yourselves.[/quote]
You all were quite vocal about it. The strategy required you to make a big sacrifice since IRON would not be able to assist you on your front. It was a very unfair thing to do but at the time it was pushed under the rug as peopled tried to look at the entire conflict as a whole (I am guilty of this). As far as outsmarting ourselves, I think that's a fair criticism.

[Canik]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322395480' post='2853661']
I never said you were not good fighters....

Edit-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Karma is the only war IRON lost isn't it?
[/quote]

He was being sarcastic Muddog. They've been on the losing side since Karma.

IRON does have a legitimate complaint and FEAR shares it, we support them in this. You should too.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1322427248' post='2853973']
The pre-emptive strike was always controversial and opposed by NSO at the time, mostly because the whole "Strategizing" thing left us and so many others flapping in the breeze for a good week while everyone deliberated, and it just seemed to be an example of you guys outsmarting yourselves. Also it seems to have established a pretty stupid precedent and continued the gradual decline of anyone giving a !@#$ about having a decent political reason for going to war (see: DH/NPO and now this itself). Conjuring up CBs was half the fun, now it's just the popular kid rounding up his friends to beat up the unpopular kid.

But in any case, the pre-emptive strike certainly didn't lose the war, and wasn't anywhere near on par with Grub's sudden bout of staggering and baffling idiocy.
[/quote]

There seems little point in wasting time conjuring up a CB if everyone already knows it's bs. It was still gathering friends and beating on the unpopular kid when people spent time manufacturing their reasons, at least this is more honest and there's actually a reason Polar are unpopular (which is their own doing)

Edited November 27, 2011 by Johnny Apocalypse

[bay102174]

[quote name='stockhunter' timestamp='1322363463' post='2853205']
How could I forget after I took 3 ZI's when I was a member in IRON? Or maybe what reminds me is the day you gave me the honor of holding a presidium seat.
[/quote]

In other words you had Honor while in IRON, up until you left with the traitors anyway. Repent publicly and I will personally lobby council for your safe return. Oops, I better be careful that could be considered an act of war.


[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322394858' post='2853655']
Iron's honor and loyalty will in my mind always be in question until you prove me wrong. Fighting winning wars for an ally does not make you a loyal ally or brave. It is when all hell brakes loose and your the one standing next to them. Iron has never shown that in their history, regardless of how much you wish they had.
[/quote]

I'm sorry have we watched the same clearly undisputed events in history unfold?


[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1322395480' post='2853661']
I never said you were not good fighters....

Edit-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Karma is the only war IRON lost isn't it?
[/quote]

Ah this explains it. Your voicing facts when you don't even know the basics of what is going on. Go educate yourself, then maybe we will have a chance at a intelligent discussion. Maybe. You might even have a different opinion once you know facts.

[Zonpon]

I most duly give IRON my thanks.
I love Iron!

[deth2munkies]

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' timestamp='1322426865' post='2853969']
If we had waited for the treaties to naturally resolve we would have still lost that war. IRON would have went in support of NSO who was fighting GOD (I think that was the SF member) which would have triggered the rest of Superfriends and their friends. I remember members of FARK and MHA telling me they already had the target list ready and members ready to attack IRON the moment they entered to assist NSO. This large assault on IRON would have brought in us (TOP!). This would have left CnG/others free to engage us on their terms. Sandwiched in between those two blocs and all their friends would have ended in a surefire defeat.

The pre-emptive strike was meant to engage CnG on our terms by using our large amount of high end nations. We would choose the targets which meant their large nations would be absolutely hammered by the end of week one (it worked!). From then one we would continue to attack downwards until their upper tier was destroyed. The reason for all of this was because it was known that CnG/friends were waiting on us to join before making their move.

The pre-emptive strike was a very high risk/high reward move. Their was the chance that in the end it wouldn't work and that we'd still lose. In that case our hope was that we'd atleast go out swinging rather than sitting there and taking it. The strategy from a military/stat standpoint was solid but obviously it was horrible from a political standpoint as it gave Grub the opportunity to pull out of the war.

My personal issues with Grub and therefore the NpO is the deceitful manner in which they conducted themselves. They approved the plan and emphatically stated that MK was considered on the other side of the war and they would receive no help from Polar. Afterwards they went to MK/CnG with our plans and then pulled out of the war an hour or so after we entered. Looking back should we not have put our faith in Polar? Of course not. A very dumb decision on all of our parts and we paid for that mistake. Nevertheless, many of us involved in the pre-emptive strike feel that Polar must pay for their lies. You might not consider that a valid reason for war but we do and that's why this is happening.
[/quote]

I'll defer simply because I don't remember the specific makeup of all of the blocs at that time and which treaties were still active, although I'm fairly sure since you declared directly on all of CnG, at least one of those was allied to an aqua member of SF (I think RoK was in it at the time...at least Fark was...) so they were coming in regardless. It also put NpO in one hell of an awkward position, but then that's what all of this was about anyway.

Like I said, Grub was a dick, he didn't straight up lie to you, but he intentionally mislead you, which is good enough for me. I've just seen a lot of people trying to defend it by claiming that the make up and possible outcome of the war would be drastically different had not polar quit, and it really wouldn't have been, the first strike pretty much went as badly as it possibly could even without the whole Polar thing. As far as I'm concerned there's no statute of limitations on this thing so I'm not gonna try inane legal posturing like that.

Enjoy stomping them for all the good it will do. As for me, I've always had a soft spot for Polar ever since WotC. I felt like they got humbled enough that they were in a good spot for a while, then they pulled the !@#$ in BiPolar that I thought wasn't quite as big a deal since I wasn't really paying attention to the politics at that point. It may be irrational and stupid, but I hope they can get through this one and get back on track eventually.

[Beauty]

Its sad when your so touched by the past that every time you see a Polar Flag next to IRON's you think One Vision just made another announcement.

[Stonewall14]

o/ IRON Death to the polar bueers...