Yevgeni Luchenkov Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1320506325' post='2839606'] No Pax was pretty bad at the time. But this action isn't much better. Other than Rush's theory earlier, can someone tell me how these negotiations are any of VE/MK's business? [/quote] Tetris is part of the war front. Tetris is VE's ODP. I think it's their business to deal with. They have decided to add a bit more weight to their "business" by bringing MK. I don't see any problem with it. It's pretty straightforward. Since both sides were refusing to move, they have decided to bring an ultimatum to make them move. I think it's perfectly fine, if a bit heavy-handed. People are seeing nefarious things because they want to. Legion and NSO are keeping VE's ally in war by arguing on semantics and details. VE has had enough. I could be wrong, eh, but that's how I read it. Edited November 5, 2011 by Yevgeni Luchenkov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 I love when people give me reasons to use my old signature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1320507397' post='2839615'] Tetris is part of the war front. Tetris is VE's ODP. I think it's their business to deal with. They have decided to add a bit more weight to their "business" by bringing MK. I don't see any problem with it. It's pretty straightforward. Since both sides were refusing to move, they have decided to bring an ultimatum to make them move. I think it's perfectly fine, if a bit heavy-handed. People are seeing nefarious things because they want to. Legion and NSO are keeping VE's ally in war by arguing on semantics and details. VE has had enough. I could be wrong, eh, but that's how I read it. [/quote] Your point is invalidated by them threatening both NSO/Legion. If they were solely interested in honoring the ODP they would only be threatening Legion and MK wouldn't be involved. MK and VE aren't even allied. Edited November 5, 2011 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank4ever Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) heres my account of the past few weeks. NSO: "No Surrender! White Peace" The Community: "Good job! Legion you won. Its clear enough even a blind man could see. No need to push for validation. Just get out with the well deserved victory you have at hand, because your enemy's allies are getting agitated." Legion: "No we're are gonna make them admit they lost. Their allies wont do anything this late for fear of bad PR. Besides they dont want into this war unless it escalates anyway." NSO+Legion: "NOU!" (back and forth) VE/MK: "We're tired of this...solve your differences or you both die!" Legion: "Maybe we should get that white peace now, we have more to lose from this intervention since we have already beat NSO into the ground." (assumption) NSO: "White Peace is no longer on table." (assumption) *Legion whines about it being unfair that they will get rolled.* The point is, Legion was informally warned of the growing agitation of our(NSO/Tetris) allies & chose to basically ignore it & fight for what was rightfully theirs (a surrender statement). Now I respect that because it was yours to demand of us and NSO, but by doing so you have over played your hand and the tables have turned against you. Now you are stuck. May not be fair but you are just as much responsible for your possible destruction as anyone. Next few days will be interesting, hopefully peace can be reached but only time will tell because no alliance wants to be in the middle of 2 of their allies fighting. Edited November 5, 2011 by Tank4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamerlane Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1320507482' post='2839617'] Your point is invalidated by them threatening both NSO/Legion. If they were solely interested in honoring the ODP they would only be threatening Legion and MK wouldn't be involved. MK and VE aren't even allied. [/quote] Can you really not see how our treaty connections make cooperation between our alliances, despite lack of treaty, prudent?Really? Edited November 5, 2011 by tamerlane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1320508188' post='2839620'] Are you really so ignorant as to not see how our treaty connections make cooperation between our alliances, despite lack of treaty, quite necessary and prudent? [/quote] I am not ignorant at all. Though your statement seems to imply that there is already a coalition for this war and you have your targets selected. I just find it absolutely hilarious that you guys are going to totally get away with this because of the following reasons: 1. No one has the balls or political power to stand up to you 2. People just want war. 3. People don't want to piss off their allies. Man, we are so lucky that UDB or WAPA didn't coordinate with their allies allies back in the day. EDIT: This war has been going on for over a month and there is no reason for you guys to get involved now instead of then. It is NSO's fault for being so stubborn and Legion's fault for being idiotic with their demand. I really don't understand what the bigger picture could be for the involvement of VE/MK now other than to expand the war to draw other alliances that people want to hit in. Edited November 5, 2011 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brehon Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 What I am about to say matters exactly zero. As much as I have grown to have respect for MK and VE, this is frankly !@#$%^&*. You have no place, no reason and certainly no ground for this other than ego and the ability to throw weight around and say "Look what I can do". Legion and NSO stay at war, why is this your business? Why are you making it your business. All I can see is "Because we can." I don't get it, but I know one thing, this is wrong in so many ways. You want to declare war on a group, do it. For this "reason" to join into a war is almost as weak as the justification used for the last time you all decided to play warmonger. Anyway, whatever, every time I believe we can make something better, all of us in Bob !@#$ on it one more time. I thank you for giving me another reason to question the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrie Melodies Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1320484859' post='2839514'] I still see about a million NS, 87k tech, and almost 100 members, enough for them to be yelling about how they 'wont surrender because they aren't loosing!' up until this announcement, and enough for a large number of people to back them up in saying that. Check back to that topic that closed the day before yesterday. So in short, they are certainly broke, but we can make sure they get broken even more. This though, is not about that, it's an incentive to end the garbage that both them and legion have been piling up around here and let their ally, whose punishment has long since been served, out of the war. [/quote] I remember another alliance who refused to surrender, who was constantly accused of piling up garbage around here and who are now held in high regard, do you remember who they are? You can't force an alliance to do anything they truly don't wish to do and if you believe you can you're a freakin moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Brehon' timestamp='1320508851' post='2839623'] What I am about to say matters exactly zero. As much as I have grown to have respect for MK and VE, this is frankly !@#$%^&*. You have no place, no reason and certainly no ground for this other than ego and the ability to throw weight around and say "Look what I can do". Legion and NSO stay at war, why is this your business? Why are you making it your business. All I can see is "Because we can." I don't get it, but I know one thing, this is wrong in so many ways. You want to declare war on a group, do it. For this "reason" to join into a war is almost as weak as the justification used for the last time you all decided to play warmonger. Anyway, whatever, every time I believe we can make something better, all of us in Bob !@#$ on it one more time. I thank you for giving me another reason to question the world. [/quote] But Brehon, tamerlane said it was "necessary and prudent" for them to cooperate and get involved in this matter. Simple minds like ours just can't understand I guess. Edited November 5, 2011 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='Tank4ever' timestamp='1320507849' post='2839618'] The point is, Legion was informally warned of the growing agitation of our(NSO/Tetris) allies & chose to basically ignore it & fight for what was rightfully theirs (a surrender statement). Now I respect that because it was yours to demand of us and NSO, but by doing so you have over played your hand and the tables have turned against you. Now you are stuck. May not be fair but you are just as much responsible for your possible destruction as anyone. Next few days will be interesting, hopefully peace can be reached but only time will tell because no alliance wants to be in the middle of 2 of their allies fighting. [/quote] Legion, listen this man. You're guilty for requesting an admission of defeat when you indeed defeated your enemy and now MK/VE will punish you because your terms are reasonable. Shame on you Legion! This also should serve as a lesson for everyone else, who in future, found themselves in the losing side of a war: refuse to surrender and wait MK/VE come to save you, unless you are losing a war against MK/VE, in this case, if you refuse to surrender they will make you pay harsher reparations because of your stubbornness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamerlane Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1320508594' post='2839622'] I am not ignorant at all. Though your statement seems to imply that there is already a coalition for this war and you have your targets selected. I just find it absolutely hilarious that you guys are going to totally get away with this because of the following reasons: 1. No one has the balls or political power to stand up to you 2. People just want war. 3. People don't want to piss off their allies. Man, we are so lucky that UDB or WAPA didn't coordinate with their allies allies back in the day. EDIT: This war has been going on for over a month and there is no reason for you guys to get involved now instead of then. It is NSO's fault for being so stubborn and Legion's fault for being idiotic with their demand. I really don't understand what the bigger picture could be for the involvement of VE/MK now other than to expand the war to draw other alliances that people want to hit in. [/quote] ...try and stop us?? For all your saber rattling and dismay at how we are going to just get away with this, you are welcome to step in and do something. Edited November 5, 2011 by tamerlane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1320509072' post='2839627'] ...try and stop us?? [/quote] Ah yes. The good old "do something about it" argument. When you have nothing to back your argument up simply resort to might makes right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank4ever Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='D34th' timestamp='1320509055' post='2839626'] Legion, listen this man. You're guilty for requesting an admission of defeat when you indeed defeated your enemy and now MK/VE will punish you because your terms are reasonable. Shame on you Legion! This also should serve as a lesson for everyone else, who in future, found themselves in the losing side of a war: refuse to surrender and wait MK/VE come to save you, unless you are losing a war against MK/VE, in this case, if you refuse to surrender they will make you pay harsher reparations because of your stubbornness. [/quote] Clever, but off base. Its not about waiting for some outside help. Its about knowing what "battles" you can win & what "battles" are not worth fighting for, because the potential damage outwieghs the potential reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1320509072' post='2839627'] ...try and stop us?? For all your saber rattling and dismay at how we are going to just get away with this, you are welcome to step in and do something. [/quote] Yes as a relatively inactive leader of a 24 nation alliance who's allies are all directly or indirectly tied to MK in someway, I really have the power and time to do something like that. I played the white knight in the past to help MK survive and see how well that has worked out. No, I think I will just sit on the sidelines and call you guys out on how crappy of an alliance you have turned into. And if you don't like my opinion, do something about it. Because then it would truly show how far the mighty have fallen. I dare you. Edited November 5, 2011 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jtkode Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 I want to see what happens when Legion and NSO don't pay any mind to this thread... so interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Cyvole Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1320507397' post='2839615'] Tetris is part of the war front. Tetris is VE's ODP. I think it's their business to deal with. They have decided to add a bit more weight to their "business" by bringing MK. I don't see any problem with it. It's pretty straightforward. Since both sides were refusing to move, they have decided to bring an ultimatum to make them move. I think it's perfectly fine, if a bit heavy-handed. People are seeing nefarious things because they want to. Legion and NSO are keeping VE's ally in war by arguing on semantics and details. VE has had enough. I could be wrong, eh, but that's how I read it. [/quote] Well, maybe, if you ignore this: [quote]This is mostly directed at VE, since we have no formal ties with MK, but while we appreciate and understand the sentiment, I must express our displeasure at the threatening of our MDP allies. Hopefully this leads to peace and not something more. [/quote] And this: [quote]I really hope that NSO and Legion keep warring because I think it'd be hilarious to watch Logan and the rest of Tetris' actual government figure out how to handle our MDP partner being hit by our ODP partner... with the CB being us. What an awesome announcement! [/quote] ODPs are generally not strong treaties, certainly not strong enough to justify attacking both your treaty partner's opponent and ally with some feeble excuse of getting their treaty partner out of a war against the will of said treaty partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereno Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='Lord Cyvole' timestamp='1320509651' post='2839633'] Well, maybe, if you ignore this: And this: ODPs are generally not strong treaties, certainly not strong enough to justify attacking both your treaty partner's opponent and ally with some feeble excuse of getting their treaty partner out of a war against the will of said treaty partner. [/quote] It's worth mentioning that until the recent downgrade, VE was our longest ever MDP+ ally at over 1 year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Tank4ever' timestamp='1320509337' post='2839629'] Clever, but off base. Its not about waiting for some outside help. Its about knowing what "battles" you can win & what "battles" are not worth fighting for, because the potential damage outwieghs the potential reward. [/quote] Sorry but Legion's war against Tetris/NSO is part of the battles you can win and Legion is in fact winning, besides that, this war totally worth fighting for, this war represents the moment that Legion said that enough is enough and they wouldn't tolerate the bullying behavior against them anymore. This announcement doesn't make it less truthful, on the contrary, this announcement just shows how the "powers that are" are in fact bothered with the fact that Legion is winning. Edited November 5, 2011 by D34th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamerlane Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1320509243' post='2839628'] Ah yes. The good old "do something about it" argument. When you have nothing to back your argument up simply resort to might makes right. [/quote] Heres the thing you consistently miss here, might does make right. Your long term experience in this game should provide you with all the evidence you need to understand that. ITs the reason why I don't have to justify our actions to you. Partly because I'm not government, mostly because you're insignificant. Your objections won't do anything to change our course of action. You asked for a reason, I gave a reasonable answer. You chose to ignore addressing my point, continue to cry "monster", and continue your usual soap box posturing that is just so typically you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbers Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='Rayvon' timestamp='1320493232' post='2839539'] Actually yeah ... But, I think I've changed my mind. Just to watch you go forward with this little endeavour. Tetris and Legion can thank you later for your strong support in seeing an end to this. [/quote] I'm not even sure who I am rooting for in this cluster&*^% anymore, but I do know I like this statement. Jam that ultimatum back down their throats! o/ Legion o/ NSO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1320510099' post='2839639'] Heres the thing you consistently miss here, might does make right. Your long term experience in this game should provide you with all the evidence you need to understand that. ITs the reason why I don't have to justify our actions to you. Partly because I'm not government, mostly because you're insignificant. Your objections won't do anything to change our course of action. You asked for a reason, I gave a reasonable answer. You chose to ignore addressing my point, continue to cry "monster", and continue your usual soap box posturing that is just so typically you. [/quote] You didn't give me a reason. All you said was "necessary and prudent". And I did not ignore addressing your point at all you just had no point to begin with. You are trying to hard to insult me. I am the first person to stand up and say I am insignificant. And yet here you are responding to me with no substantive argument and ad hominem attacks to mask the fact that MK has no valid reason for being involved in this conflict what so ever. I am comfortable with who I am. I was born this way. Edited November 5, 2011 by AirMe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank4ever Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='D34th' timestamp='1320510063' post='2839638'] Sorry but Legion's war against Tetris/NSO is part of the battles you can win and Legion is in fact winning, besides that, this war totally worth fighting for, this war represents the moment that Legion said that enough is enough and they wouldn't tolerate the bullying behavior against them anymore. This announcement doesn't make it less truthful, on the contrary, this announcement just shows how the "powers that are" are in fact bothered with the fact that Legion is winning. [/quote] Once again clever AND true this time, but wrong scenario. The scenario Im speaking of is them trying to validate a clear cut victory with an "I surrender" from NSO. It was theirs to demand as they had the upperhand & were significantly ahead, but is 2 words really worth getting your entire alliance destroyed? Edited November 5, 2011 by Tank4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellBade Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='Tank4ever' timestamp='1320510468' post='2839644'] Once again clever AND true this time, but wrong scenario. The scenario Im speaking of is them trying to validate a clear cut victory with an "I surrender" from NSO. It was theirs to demand as they had the upperhand & were significantly ahead, but is 2 words really worth getting your entire alliance destroyed? [/quote] Ask NSO, they'll apparently tell you yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1320509483' post='2839630'] Yes as a relatively inactive leader of a 24 nation alliance who's allies are all directly or indirectly tied to MK in someway, I really have the power and time to do something like that. I played the white knight in the past to help MK survive and see how well that has worked out. No, I think I will just sit on the sidelines and call you guys out on how crappy of an alliance you have turned into. And if you don't like my opinion, do something about it. Because then it would truly show how far the mighty have fallen. I dare you. [/quote] You should have never left MK, AirMe. But I don't know that even you could have kept them from going realpolitik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank4ever Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 [quote name='MitchellBade' timestamp='1320510606' post='2839648'] Ask NSO, they'll apparently tell you yes. [/quote] Well each alliance has their own views, so that would be pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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