Legion/Tetris War Stats

[IYIyTh]

[quote name='dane0' timestamp='1319053825' post='2828760']
Well now, if you'd like to accuse NSO and NsO of this, feel free to. I'd watch your back later. Anyways, why would we want to lie about a stat like that. The number of POW's you capture does not determine a war, and to be honest, I only added that stat so I could keep track.
[/quote]

Tetris, threatening DT.

Awesome.

[Megamind]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1319056620' post='2828786']
Tetris, threatening [s]DT[/s] [b]Doch, a former DT member currently residing on The Legion AA[/b].

Awesome.
[/quote]

Fixed it for ya

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1319055590' post='2828775']
$%&@ 'em. Nobody surrenders. There's plenty of room in this handbasket to hell for everybody. Deserters get shot in the back.

[img]http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q17/otingocni/evil_smiley_small.png[/img]
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I must wonder where this martial spirit was when Legion refused to fight MK, declaring that it would only attack GOONS (before having most of the alliance spend that war in peace mode). That is where the heart of this argument is. It is not even that Legion was completely useless during that war, but due to the disrespect shown towards those who actually fought afterward.

I will not deny that Legion has been fighting well this war, and that since last July many of you have greatly improved your war chests and actually bought spies. I am capable of respecting that fact. What I want to know is well Legion ever actually admit that it performed poorly against Doomhouse and left the rest of its coalition out to dry in order to save its own fat?[/color]

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1319059749' post='2828806']
[color="#0000FF"]I must wonder where this martial spirit was when Legion refused to fight MK, declaring that it would only attack GOONS (before having most of the alliance spend that war in peace mode). That is where the heart of this argument is. It is not even that Legion was completely useless during that war, but due to the disrespect shown towards those who actually fought afterward.

I will not deny that Legion has been fighting well this war, and that since last July many of you have greatly improved your war chests and actually bought spies. I am capable of respecting that fact. What I want to know is well Legion ever actually admit that it performed poorly against Doomhouse and left the rest of its coalition out to dry in order to save its own fat?[/color]
[/quote]

Every person is the hero of their own play, RV, be it martyr or conqueror. You and me both. NSO and the Legion, both.

Will they agree to your version of events? Probably not, seeing as that isn't the totality of it. What they have done, though, is come to grips with the mistakes made and work towards improvement. As you are witnessing firsthand.

We can't go back in time and change things. We can only march forward and do our best today. People can only bow their heads for so long over plans not working out the way they were desired, even if it costs others pain, at some point you have to lift your head up, make amends with those that deserve it, scorn those that don't, and begin the trek towards a better life.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Kzoppistan

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1319060782' post='2828814']
Every person is the hero of their own play, RV, be it martyr or conqueror. You and me both. NSO and the Legion, both.

Will they agree to your version of events? Probably not, seeing as that isn't the totality of it. What they have done, though, is come to grips with the mistakes made and work towards improvement. As you are witnessing firsthand.

We can't go back in time and change things. We can only march forward and do our best today. People can only bow their heads for so long over plans not working out the way they were desired, even if it costs others pain, at some point you have to lift your head up, make amends with those that deserve it, scorn those that don't, and begin the trek towards a better life.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]All I ask is for an admittance of wrongdoing. If Legion will recognize that it did wrong to its coalition partners to that war, and that it was detrimental to the overall war effort, then my gripes with Legion shall be no more.[/color]

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='IYIyTh' timestamp='1319056620' post='2828786']
Tetris, threatening DT.

Awesome.
[/quote]

Yeah, Megamind summed it up. Once this war is over and I no longer reside on the Legion AA, I doubt Tetris, NSO, or NsO would continue to threaten me. For that matter, they are not really threatening me now except dane0.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1319059749' post='2828806']
[color="#0000FF"]I must wonder where this martial spirit was when Legion refused to fight MK, declaring that it would only attack GOONS (before having most of the alliance spend that war in peace mode). That is where the heart of this argument is. It is not even that Legion was completely useless during that war, but due to the disrespect shown towards those who actually fought afterward.[/color]
[/quote]

The disrespect started with you playing your face about the DH war on these forums. You laid the blame squarely at our door for the defeat. You blamed the strategy of the coalition in that war on Legion. I wasn't in any of the planning channels for that war, heard none of the arguments for or against the way the war was fought. I do know that your version of events bears no relation to what Legion members were being told. There was no lack of enthusiasm for the fight from the general membership. We do know NSO left the war early. As has been said though, this is all in the past and we're never going to agree.

In the present we see you trashing your current allies in public. I'm sure they appreciate it.

You've based your assessment of Legion on assumptions that were wrong 2 weeks ago and are more wrong now. Despite your predictions we're more organised and determined now than when the war started. In that regard we owe NSO and their Tetris stooges a debt, one which we intend to repay in full.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1319062053' post='2828820']
[color="#0000FF"]All I ask is for an admittance of wrongdoing. If Legion will recognize that it did wrong to its coalition partners to that war, and that it was detrimental to the overall war effort, then my gripes with Legion shall be no more.[/color]
[/quote]

Was it truly a wrong that was done, RV?

Or was it incompatible strategies in a forced coalition? You feel you were wronged because YOU didn't get what YOU wanted out of some one? And it cost you. So you blame others. Because the Legion didn't follow some haphazard plan constructed by the side that was lacking any coherent strategic command and already destined to lose, that is your real beef?

Or do you want some "admittance of wrongdoing" in a war of mismanaged and divided goals to score some sort of PR point now and make you feel justified in your dislike?

Once the war is over, I encourage you to take this concern of yours through diplomatic channels. I'm sure it can be laid to rest.

Now. In regards to war stats, this conversation is neither here nor there.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Kzoppistan

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1319062508' post='2828823']
The disrespect started with you playing your face about the DH war on these forums. You laid the blame squarely at our door for the defeat. You blamed the strategy of the coalition in that war on Legion. I wasn't in any of the planning channels for that war, heard none of the arguments for or against the way the war was fought. I do know that your version of events bears no relation to what Legion members were being told. There was no lack of enthusiasm for the fight from the general membership. We do know NSO left the war early. As has been said though, this is all in the past and we're never going to agree.

In the present we see you trashing your current allies in public. I'm sure they appreciate it.

You've based your assessment of Legion on assumptions that were wrong 2 weeks ago and are more wrong now. Despite your predictions we're more organised and determined now than when the war started. In that regard we owe NSO and their Tetris stooges a debt, one which we intend to repay in full.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]The "disrespect" started after some mindless Legion members started patting themselves on the back on how well they did. Some NSO member called them out on such rubbish, resulting in a myriad of Legionnaires defaming NSO. Should we have stood for such insults?

Also, NSO never said Legion lost the war. It was a lost war from the beginning, and nothing could have changed that. Yet the goal of us all was to cause as much damage as possible to the enemy. Or so we thought. Legion outright refused to fight MK and Umbrella, because you feared you would take too much damage. Like it or not Legion had a large portion of the strength of the coalition, particularly at the upper level. While it wasn't enough to win the war, it was more then enough to make a lasting dent had you actually fought. That is what we told you, and you ignored that advice. Your refusal to participate limited the options available to the coalition.

NSO left the war early? Two months of near continuous fighting is leaving early? We left out of frustration in dealing with you, and partly because we had given everything we had. Our nations were utterly demolish, and close to broke. Additionally our allies were about to be dog piled by a coalition, including GOD. Our continued participation would have achieved nothing, considering that Legion refused to fight. And no, sending out a few nation near they end, and only after it was made clear you would have to come out of peace mode to get peace, does not count. For two months you did nothing while NSO and others bled.

As for my "assumptions" of Legion, I never expected you to surrender easily. I've known for months you've been building your war chests after the embarassment, which you did deserve, we handed you. And frankly we're less than half your size, and were when this started. Of course you'd fight. Legion has never been afraid to fight a war with the odds in its favor. But that is not what this is about.

And "disrespect" towards "allies." IAA and BTA are not allies of NSO. They are not even fighting alongside us. NsO I sing praises for, for they actually have a fighting spirit. Whether or not they actually make much of a difference, I do not care. They are giving it their all. That is more than can be said of IAA and BTA, and certainly more than can be said of Legion the last war.[/color]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1319062771' post='2828824']
Was it truly a wrong that was done, RV?

Or was it incompatible strategies in a forced coalition? You feel you were wronged because YOU didn't get what YOU wanted out of some one? And it cost you. So you blame others. Because the Legion didn't follow some haphazard plan constructed by the side that was lacking any coherent strategic command and already destined to lose, that is your real beef?

Or do you want some "admittance of wrongdoing" in a war of mismanaged and divided goals to score some sort of PR point now and make you feel justified in your dislike?

Once the war is over, I encourage you to take this concern of yours through diplomatic channels. I'm sure it can be laid to rest.

Now. In regards to war stats, this conversation is neither here nor there.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Haphazard plan? There was nothing haphazard about it. The goal to cause a long-lasting damage to Doomhouse, both physically and politically, was the only option available to us. Victory was not an option. Only the delusional ever believed that. A losing war was forced upon us, and instead of trying to do as much damage as possible, as others sought to do, Legion chose to hide. Then you had the gall to call NSO cowards afterward.[/color]

Edited October 19, 2011 by Rebel Virginia

[memoryproblems]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1319062771' post='2828824']
Was it truly a wrong that was done, RV?

Or was it incompatible strategies in a forced coalition? You feel you were wronged because YOU didn't get what YOU wanted out of some one? And it cost you. So you blame others. Because the Legion didn't follow some haphazard plan constructed by the side that was lacking any coherent strategic command and already destined to lose, that is your real beef?
[/quote]

No, as somebody who, unlike yourself, was there and knows what happened, I can tell you that it was just Legion being a bunch of little !@#$%*es and taking the easy route out while others put it on the line to honor their treaties. Nothing less, nothing more.

Perhaps if Legion hadn't known about the strategy and then changed their mind half-way in...

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1319040473' post='2828653']
Okay, so you used an example that was basically the worst example you could possibly use then. Most people use examples as a way of explaining a situation not because it was "easy" but because it is actually relevant to the situation. If you did not use the Doomhouse example to explain what you thought would happen then it should never have been used. Again, since most use examples that are relevant to the conversation, that is what I assumed you were doing. Which means, me assuming you were comparing NSO, Tetris, and NsO to Doomhouse would be spot on. My thought process is also based on RV stating that NSO, Tetris, and NsO are all martial alliances which I find amusing considering how horrible Tetris and NsO are actually doing.

I mean to make that claim for Tetris and NsO is to basically state that Legion is also a martial alliance... NSO possibly but even then your alliance as a whole is not that great really. You are better than any of the alliances involved in this war but that means little when NSO is basically holding up your entire coalition.

With that I am done then. Next time, use relevant examples instead of just "easy" ones.
[/quote]
Ehhhh.

Your attempts at spin are laughable at best. In the context that I brought up that example it was clear that I was in no way comparing the fighting abilities of the coalitions, but simply highlighting Legion's traditional approach to war. That you came in full of bluster, convinced that you had found a point to score against us is nobodies fault but your own. Better luck next time!

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1319067837' post='2828876']
Ehhhh.

Your attempts at spin are laughable at best. In the context that I brought up that example it was clear that I was in no way comparing the fighting abilities of the coalitions, but simply highlighting Legion's traditional approach to war. That you came in full of bluster, convinced that you had found a point to score against us is nobodies fault but your own. Better luck next time!
[/quote]

That was one time. That does not make anything traditional. I know Legion has never been particularly great at war, but I honestly can't remember another time they used PM in such a way.

Then there is the fact that you are using Legion's war with Doomhouse to somehow illustrate this one is ridiculous since Legion is not sitting in mass PM and thus, you are not really highlighting anything.


[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1318939765' post='2827882']
We had no plan. Varianz passed the screens along of his own accord, and Hereno posted them of his own accord. That said, we're here now, and we're going to enjoy it. I largely agree that it's going to go to the bitter end, and frankly I don't shy away from that. A long hard war is the greatest test of an alliance, and NSO has already come through a few of those, so I don't doubt our capabilities. [b]The reason we bring up the Doomhouse war is that that suggests that you don't have the stomach for war that we do[/b], since you took most of your alliance into peacemode for the duration.

And yes, we can win.
[/quote]


According to the bolded, you brought up Doomhouse to highlight how Legion cannot stomach a war, not because of some "traditional" approach.

Even on that, you would have to compare your coalition to Doomhouse otherwise, you cannot state Legion can or can't stomach a war against the likes of Tetris, NSO, and NsO. Let's face it, not many could actually stomach a war against Doomhouse without using PM for a good length of time. Umbrella alone would shred the upper tiers of basically any alliance against them, or a rather large coalition for that matter.

By comparison, Tetris, NSO, and NsO barely have an upper tier. Up until Drai joined you, you had 1 100k NS nation, the others being in IAA with only 1 of those fighting. Other than that, Legion outnumbers you (as in all 5 alliances in the Coalition) in the 30k to 99k NS range.

So what exactly does Legion have to fear from ya'll? Nothing really. So, the Doomhouse analogy does not work as Legion had something to fear from Doomhouse that is severely lacking from ya'lls coalition.

I don't care about "scoring" points. I only brought up that your analogy sucked and that you cannot compare your coalition to Doomhouse. You are the one who got defensive and stated that you weren't trying to compare yourself to Doomhouse but instead was simply using an example that you thought fit...

Except for the example to fit, you would have to compare yourself to Doomhouse and that is impossible to do.

Anyways, I am done with you.

[Kzoppistan]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1319067277' post='2828869']
[color="#0000FF"]Haphazard plan? There was nothing haphazard about it. The goal to cause a long-lasting damage to Doomhouse, both physically and politically, was the only option available to us. Victory was not an option. Only the delusional ever believed that. A losing war was forced upon us, and instead of trying to do as much damage as possible, as others sought to do, Legion chose to hide. Then you had the gall to call NSO cowards afterward.[/color]
[/quote]

Conserving your strength is not a bad tactic, considering that to go all out would just mean a curb stomp.

As I understand it, NPO's advice was to stay in peace mode as a waiting game. And then the command structure became muddled disorganized, leaving the Legion with conflicting orders.

Personally, I wouldn't have advocated either of those strategies, but that's neither here nor there.

Just because YOU decided to jump headfirst into a pit of fire doesn't mean it was the Legion's fault. Not cooperating may not have made the most effective coalition (a coalition of circumstance) but it is not a wrong.

Were you lied to?
Were you stolen from?
Were you struck?
Were you [i]spied upon[/i]?

Those are wrongs.

Not having a mutually agreed upon plan is not a wrong. You took the damage upon yourself by charging in, that responsibility is on you and the others that did the same.

However, I will say that calling you all cowards, something that I will take your word for since I don't know the context, was certainly inappropriate. You fought long and hard in that war, I remember that. Sorry it didn't work out the way you wanted, and that you didn't agree with the Legion's actions, but to say you were wronged by them is incorrect.

If you feel so strongly about it, now is the time to extract your "revenge" or put it to rest.

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1319067689' post='2828872']
No, as somebody who, unlike yourself, was there and knows what happened, I can tell you that it was just Legion being a bunch of little !@#$%*es and taking the easy route out while others put it on the line to honor their treaties. Nothing less, nothing more.

Perhaps if Legion hadn't known about the strategy and then changed their mind half-way in...
[/quote]

Well, get over it.

Damage was done to those that jumped in, the entire coalition was defeated, and the Legion's name was dragged through the mud, too. We're doing the best we can with an unfortunate situation just like you all did.

That was then and this is now, and between the span of the two things change.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Kzoppistan

[Baron Flynt]

The POW list looks like it needs updating: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=213&pid=2812724&st=1580&#entry2812724

[cybersaur]

Since this is a stats thread, how about adding a stat for the most 50 bomber bombing runs? NSO, is winning that one handily!
And the only reason the Tetris/NSO coalition may have a warchest advantage is because you're finding yourselves with less and less infra to pay for! Bills are getting a lot lower now that so many of your nations are well on their way to ZI, huh?
Instead of posting battle reports in our forums, mostly we just laugh at the utter lack of war fighting ability on your side and the utter ridiculousness of what passes for your war skillz! Put that in the stats.

[cybersaur]

Sorry for the double post.

Edited October 20, 2011 by cybersaur

[Kzoppistan]

Now, now, cybersaur, that wasn't very nice. Remember: taunting is for PM messages, the OWF is for gentlemanly debates and sophisticated "no u"s.

I like that spirit, though.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Kzoppistan

[cybersaur]

[quote name='Kzoppistan' timestamp='1319078129' post='2828972']
Now, now, cybersaur, that wasn't very nice. Remember: taunting is for PM messages, the OWF is for gentlemanly debates and sophisticated "no u"s.

I like that spirit, though.
[/quote]
I just thought I would suggest adding some stats for NSO and Tetris to point to and be proud of. We won't be long for this war at all if they keep sending 50 bombers at a time into our air defenses! I'd say their bombers outnumber ours by roughly 45:1.
Just trying to be nice and helpful...

[Lincongrad]

[quote name='cybersaur' timestamp='1319079860' post='2828985']
I just thought I would suggest adding some stats for NSO and Tetris to point to and be proud of. We won't be long for this war at all if they keep sending 50 bombers at a time into our air defenses! I'd say their bombers outnumber ours by roughly 45:1.
Just trying to be nice and helpful...
[/quote]

Cool it, guys.

[Unknown Smurf]

Neither Kzopp nor I were in the Legion during the DH-NPO conflict so I will not comment on it, and I'd advise Kzopp to do the same though I have no control over him. Due to conflicting claims by both sides I can only comment on the facts I know.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1319059749' post='2828806']
[color="#0000FF"]I will not deny that Legion has been fighting well this war, and that since last July many of you have greatly improved your war chests and actually bought spies. I am capable of respecting that fact. What I want to know is well Legion ever actually admit that it performed poorly against Doomhouse and left the rest of its coalition out to dry in order to save its own fat?[/color]
[/quote]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1319062053' post='2828820']
[color="#0000FF"]All I ask is for an admittance of wrongdoing. If Legion will recognize that it did wrong to its coalition partners to that war, and that it was detrimental to the overall war effort, then my gripes with Legion shall be no more.[/color]
[/quote]

Fact: Legion lost over 200 nations due to the DH-NPO conflict.
Conclusion: Legion did not [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=105774&view=findpost&p=2828872]take the easy way out[/url].
Fact: Legion was not allied to NSO during the DH-NPO conflict.
Fact: NSO shows no respect to alliances in the same coalition as them because they aren't allies.
Conclusion: Your hypocrisy leads me to believe that your "gripes" are of no concern to me.

EDIT: Reference
[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1319067277' post='2828869']
[color="#0000FF"]And "disrespect" towards "allies." IAA and BTA are not allies of NSO. They are not even fighting alongside us. NsO I sing praises for, for they actually have a fighting spirit. Whether or not they actually make much of a difference, I do not care. They are giving it their all. That is more than can be said of IAA and BTA, and certainly more than can be said of Legion the last war.[/color][/quote]

Edited October 20, 2011 by Unknown Smurf

[dane0]

Who in the world are you?

[TehChron]

[quote name='cybersaur' timestamp='1319077638' post='2828967']
Since this is a stats thread, how about adding a stat for the most 50 bomber bombing runs? NSO, is winning that one handily!
And the only reason the Tetris/NSO coalition may have a warchest advantage is because you're finding yourselves with less and less infra to pay for! Bills are getting a lot lower now that so many of your nations are well on their way to ZI, huh?
Instead of posting battle reports in our forums, mostly we just laugh at the utter lack of war fighting ability on your side and the utter ridiculousness of what passes for your war skillz! Put that in the stats.
[/quote]
Um.

Yeah. Sure. Ok, because it's not like the only reason so many Legionarres arent following suit is from the massive aid trains Polars sending to you guys while the NSO is being left out in the cold, aid-wise. I mean, damn, most Legionarres have larger warchests now then they started the war off with, thanks to that.

It's easy to avoid ZI when you get a free 12-15 mil a round in order to buy yourself back up, you know? Problem is that so many of you all spend it on getting 50 CMs or whatever in the 3k NS range. So...yeah, you go boasting about that ZI, guy. At least the NSO didnt have to go begging daddy Polar for a handout when things went south for your collective wallets.

Not to mention how easy it is to keep said money and infra when all you guys do is turtle with only hurling CMs and bombing runs. Although I can see why you would do that collectively (its a good strategy, given your position), it's hardly anything worth boasting about.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1319081355' post='2829002']
Um.

Yeah. Sure. Ok, because it's not like the only reason so many Legionarres arent following suit is from the massive aid trains Polars sending to you guys while the NSO is being left out in the cold, aid-wise. I mean, damn, most Legionarres have larger warchests now then they started the war off with, thanks to that.

It's easy to avoid ZI when you get a free 12-15 mil a round in order to buy yourself back up, you know? Problem is that so many of you all spend it on getting 50 CMs or whatever in the 3k NS range. So...yeah, you go boasting about that ZI, guy.[b] At least the NSO didnt have to go begging daddy Polar for a handout[/b] when things went south for your collective wallets.

Not to mention how easy it is to keep said money and infra when all you guys do is turtle with only hurling CMs and bombing runs. Although I can see why you would do that collectively (its a good strategy, given your position), it's hardly anything worth boasting about.
[/quote]

Yes you went to Daddy RoK and Mama Asgaard instead... (or maybe RoK is mama and Asgaard is papi.. idk. )

[TehChron]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1319081560' post='2829005']
Yes you went to Daddy RoK and Mama Asgaard instead... (or maybe RoK is mama and Asgaard is papi.. idk. )
[/quote]
Only after you went begging because people who were only marginal participants at best in the war were being bankrolled.

How terrible. You were being so badly smacked around by IAA and their GATO/TLR aid trains that you just [b]needed[/b] Polar to even the odds for you.

No, but please, continue bragging about asking for handouts when it became clear you couldnt keep yourselves funded. Nothing wrong with us also going for whatever advantages we can when the Legion decided to find someone to bankroll their turtling strategy.

[Unknown Smurf]

[quote name='TehChron' timestamp='1319081801' post='2829009']
Only after you went begging because people who were only marginal participants at best in the war were being bankrolled.

How terrible. You were being so badly smacked around by IAA and their GATO/TLR aid trains that you just [b]needed[/b] Polar to even the odds for you.

No, but please, continue bragging about asking for handouts when it became clear you couldnt keep yourselves funded. Nothing wrong with us also going for whatever advantages we can when the Legion decided to find someone to bankroll their turtling strategy.
[/quote]

Last I checked, [url=http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?search=459627&Extended=1]Oct. 10th[/url] is before [url=http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?search=473858&Extended=1]10/13[/url].