Countdown to Athens Rep Payment

[Londo Mollari]

Whether they are "going through the motions" or not, Athens owes reparations to the nations they attacked. If they are getting no where with the KoN government due to lack of communication, then the honorable thing to do is to go directly to the individual nations and settle up. Given the fact that Athens and "friends" were essentially using these nations as target practice, a minimum of $3 mill per nation would be a good figure as a settlement.

Listen here pal. We don't "owe" reparations to anyone. We decided quite on our own that we would make restitution to KoFN as an alliance. The individual nations, well we tech raid individual nations. And we don't pay reps for those kind of raids. The reason we decided to pay reps to KoFN is that it became clear to us after talking to them that they have an actual community, and aren't completely dead as an alliance internally. That's the only reason that we are shelling out reps. We didn't do it because of pressure from the international community. We decided to pay KoFN reps, as an alliance, because it seemed to be the right thing to do to us. Not because we stole tech from *GASP* innocent nations - any raider does that. But because we realized we had brought an unwelcome disruption to the normal function of their community. So we are paying reps to that community, and will do so under the direction of the leader of that community - who told me that the Ni! banking system would take care of the smaller members anyway. You can rant and rave all you like, but it's not going to influence our actions one damned bit. We are paying KoFN reps because of our own moral compass. We will repay the alliance on our mutual terms - not on your ideas of what we should do. The matter is between KoFN, Athens, and FoB. It is none of your business, and shrilly yapping that "it is your business" and you will stand up for the rights of the "unjustly abused" is a load of horse manure. If KoFN were being unjustly abused, they'd be posting about it here, or at least talking to their allies, who would be posting about it here. Guess what? They aren't. Athens isn't a pack of evil monsters, just because we tech raid from time to time, or just because we happened to tech raid Ni! We are an alliance that made an error in judgment about a community, and that is all. Those who know us and know our full history know that we are an honorable bunch with a strong sense of right and wrong. And no matter what you try to paint us as so desperately, no matter how much !@#$ you fling at us in the hopes that some will stick and people will start to despise us, we will still be who we are. I don't care what most of you think of us. What matters to me, and to us, is who we really are. Not what people think we are.

To hell with your sanctimonious moralizing attempts at smearing our name. Get a life.

[NoFish]

So, let me get this straight, NPO (yes, NPO, recall posts from Branimir and Arcades in support of Bilrow) is calling out Athens for not paying reps to an alliance that hasn't gotten back to them about a figure, yet? And then spews some untrue nonsense about the reps not coming from Athens's nations?

If this was just the blatant slander of the OP that belies no true sympathy for KoN! I wouldn't see reason to post, but it's not (which in and of itself is a depressing thought...). Continued posts by unaggrieved parties spouting previously refuted claims show just why people like me are so distrustful of the morality police - the only blessing here is that the NPO is bad enough at playing it to be seen through more easily than certain other parties have been.

[King Louis the II]

The matter is between KoFN, Athens, and FoB.

Get a life.

I guess Londo summarized what I planned to post... It is unbelieaveble how there are people that want to create problems where there is none.

It look like old ladies from a small town gossiping in the local drugstore.

[Tygaland]

Step four (and every step along the way really) is where Tygaland makes up his mind what ChairmanHal has written and why even though its pretty clear Tygaland skimmed it and then picked out something to harp on for the next three paragraphs, whether it actually logically follows what ChairmanHal was saying or not.

What you have written is nonsense.

Step five is where Tygaland decides that sarcasm might work better, failing that, calls ChairmanHal stupid.

I haven't called you stupid. Just noted you lack logic and post a lot of nonsense.

Step six is where ChairmanHal concludes that while he is opposed to nuclear roguery on principle, he understands why some people would make an exception where Tygaland is concerned.

Awwwww!

Step seven is where Tygaland needs to shut up, but ChairmanHal doesn't see that ever happening. After all, when you are dealing with someone that is still butthurt over surrender negotiations that happened OVER A YEAR AGO, it is unlikely that they will ever let anything else go, ever.

Butthurt? Me? Hardly.

I get that STA wants to defend Athens in this matter.

Really? So standing up for common sense (waiting until reps amount is agreed by both parties before sending them out to the nations the recipient alliance requests) is supporting Athens? No, I'm just pointing out that what you are posting is nonsense.

That's fine, but your boss is derailing that effort by coming after me personally. I'm quite capable of giving as good as I get when I have the time, but let's bottom line this: is it really going to cost Athens a huge chunk of money to aid the war victims directly? Not for Athens. Is it possible the aid victims will pee the money the money on silly stuff? Yep. Does that matter? No. The gesture is what matters, not going through some long, drawn out b.s. process to make sure that Athens doesn't have to, God forbid, pay out a few dollars/dongs/yen/whatever they didn't owe. What's more, by putting the money out there now, it shuts up the Jonathan Brookbanks of the world and others who will bring up the matter of the reparations again and again and further embarrass Athens.

I don't think Athens have been embarrassed here at all. I also believe it to be a common courtesy to agree terms before acting with regards to paying reparations. I love how you come across as though I have some ulterior motive to comment here when it is you that has come in with an inane demand that Athens pay reps before a figure has been agreed.

Despite the obvious stupidity in what you are saying you not only persist with your demands but to then turn around and say I'm just arguing with you out of some sort of blind defence of Athens? You are only posting this rubbish because you think it will embarrass Athens but in reality you are just embarrassing yourself.

But hey, if you honestly don't care about Athens as much as you (STA) are letting on, that's fine. Make sure they hold out that cash until every possible bureaucratic obligation has been met.

Ignoring your erroneous assumption that my comments are blind allegiance to Athens, an alliance we do not and never have held a treaty with, I am amused at your reference to agreeing terms as a "bureaucratic obligation". Athens is clearly setting a terrible precedent here.

[Cyphon88]

It is unbelieaveble how there are people that want to create problems where there is none.

It look like old ladies from a small town gossiping in the local drugstore.

This is CN, where you been?

[ChairmanHal]

To hell with your sanctimonious moralizing attempts at smearing our name. Get a life.

Well done. You have articulated in very definitive terms your stand on the issue.

But just for sake of review...

You were in my seat once. Writing words that weren't too far off from what I have been asserting all along. Your opposite, in so many words, said some of the same exact things you are saying now.

Enjoy your day, Londo. Enjoy the success of Athens for as long as it lasts. For the day will come, as it does for everyone, that success will elude you. With your well written and strong stand regarding this issue, you are perhaps making that day come sooner.

Time will tell.

The thread is yours, I will be off the remainder of the day, "getting a life".

[James I]

Step four (and every step along the way really) is where Tygaland makes up his mind what ChairmanHal has written and why even though its pretty clear Tygaland skimmed it and then picked out something to harp on for the next three paragraphs, whether it actually logically follows what ChairmanHal was saying or not.

Step five is where Tygaland decides that sarcasm might work better, failing that, calls ChairmanHal stupid.

Step six is where ChairmanHal concludes that while he is opposed to nuclear roguery on principle, he understands why some people would make an exception where Tygaland is concerned.

Step seven is where Tygaland needs to shut up, but ChairmanHal doesn't see that ever happening. After all, when you are dealing with someone that is still butthurt over surrender negotiations that happened OVER A YEAR AGO, it is unlikely that they will ever let anything else go, ever.

Looks like we hit step three.

[Tygaland]

Looks like we hit step three.

We sure did!

[Londo Mollari]

What's more, by putting the money out there now, it shuts up the Jonathan Brookbanks of the world and others who will bring up the matter of the reparations again and again and further embarrass Athens.

Guess what? The reps aren't about "shutting people up". It's not some part of a plan to carefully rebuild our "image". The reps are about giving the alliance KoFN satisfaction for our raid on them. And that is all. I don't particularly care what Jonathan Brookbank thinks or says about this situation. He is completely irrelevant to it, no matter how desparately he wants to matter here.

You were in my seat once. Writing words that weren't too far off from what I have been asserting all along. Your opposite, in so many words, said some of the same exact things you are saying now.

I was making inane demands of some alliance that had tech raided someone while doing my best to trade angry barbs with STA? I sure don't remember that one, Hal. Maybe you can show me what you're talking about?

Enjoy your day, Londo. Enjoy the success of Athens for as long as it lasts. For the day will come, as it does for everyone, that success will elude you. With your well written and strong stand regarding this issue, you are perhaps making that day come sooner.

I'll be seeing you sweetheart.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Londo Mollari

[Gn0xious Jr]

@brookbank

in regards to your feelings on reps... if i have money sitting in a bank, and i owe reps to an individual, it is wrong for me to have that bank wire the funds directly into their account? i first have to withdraw the money in cash, bundle it up and secure within briefcases, and hand deliver to the individual? seems like this would draw out the length of time it takes for the individual to see funds in their account... either way, it is my money in a bank (not necessarily in the bank i own).

@thread/OP

i still am unclear as to why this is an issue. athens has presented kon with an offer on reps and is awaiting response. i expect that we will see aid offers rolling through once payment terms are agreed upon and aid lists are actually received/presented. until that time, negotiations are a process and need to be completed before i would expect to see any aid offers...

[Bilrow]

18 Days And Still No Reps From Athens

Rumor has it the Knights of Ni! have sent Londo on a trip to find some shrubbery before they will come to an agreement on reps.

[Heft]

Listen here pal. We don't "owe" reparations to anyone. We decided quite on our own that we would make restitution to KoFN as an alliance. The individual nations, well we tech raid individual nations. And we don't pay reps for those kind of raids. The reason we decided to pay reps to KoFN is that it became clear to us after talking to them that they have an actual community, and aren't completely dead as an alliance internally. That's the only reason that we are shelling out reps. We didn't do it because of pressure from the international community. We decided to pay KoFN reps, as an alliance, because it seemed to be the right thing to do to us. Not because we stole tech from *GASP* innocent nations - any raider does that. But because we realized we had brought an unwelcome disruption to the normal function of their community. So we are paying reps to that community, and will do so under the direction of the leader of that community - who told me that the Ni! banking system would take care of the smaller members anyway. You can rant and rave all you like, but it's not going to influence our actions one damned bit. We are paying KoFN reps because of our own moral compass. We will repay the alliance on our mutual terms - not on your ideas of what we should do. The matter is between KoFN, Athens, and FoB. It is none of your business, and shrilly yapping that "it is your business" and you will stand up for the rights of the "unjustly abused" is a load of horse manure. If KoFN were being unjustly abused, they'd be posting about it here, or at least talking to their allies, who would be posting about it here. Guess what? They aren't. Athens isn't a pack of evil monsters, just because we tech raid from time to time, or just because we happened to tech raid Ni! We are an alliance that made an error in judgment about a community, and that is all. Those who know us and know our full history know that we are an honorable bunch with a strong sense of right and wrong. And no matter what you try to paint us as so desperately, no matter how much !@#$ you fling at us in the hopes that some will stick and people will start to despise us, we will still be who we are. I don't care what most of you think of us. What matters to me, and to us, is who we really are. Not what people think we are.

To hell with your sanctimonious moralizing attempts at smearing our name. Get a life.

You know this thread was actually going pretty well for you. It'll be interesting to see if anyone picks up on the apparent turn-around you've just made here though. Asserting that because your alleged victims are quiet you must be treating them well is a real interesting tactic.

Yes, you do owe them reparations and yes, you did fold under intense external pressure. This sort of post does certainly raise your status as an expert on horse manure, though, so you got that going for you at least.

[Jack Diorno]

I liked NPO more when they weren't the whiny weak kid in glasses.

[Merrie Melodies]

Listen here pal. We don't "owe" reparations to anyone. We decided quite on our own that we would make restitution to KoFN as an alliance. The individual nations, well we tech raid individual nations. And we don't pay reps for those kind of raids. The reason we decided to pay reps to KoFN is that it became clear to us after talking to them that they have an actual community, and aren't completely dead as an alliance internally. That's the only reason that we are shelling out reps. We didn't do it because of pressure from the international community. We decided to pay KoFN reps, as an alliance, because it seemed to be the right thing to do to us. Not because we stole tech from *GASP* innocent nations - any raider does that. But because we realized we had brought an unwelcome disruption to the normal function of their community. So we are paying reps to that community, and will do so under the direction of the leader of that community - who told me that the Ni! banking system would take care of the smaller members anyway. You can rant and rave all you like, but it's not going to influence our actions one damned bit. We are paying KoFN reps because of our own moral compass. We will repay the alliance on our mutual terms - not on your ideas of what we should do. The matter is between KoFN, Athens, and FoB. It is none of your business, and shrilly yapping that "it is your business" and you will stand up for the rights of the "unjustly abused" is a load of horse manure. If KoFN were being unjustly abused, they'd be posting about it here, or at least talking to their allies, who would be posting about it here. Guess what? They aren't. Athens isn't a pack of evil monsters, just because we tech raid from time to time, or just because we happened to tech raid Ni! We are an alliance that made an error in judgment about a community, and that is all. Those who know us and know our full history know that we are an honorable bunch with a strong sense of right and wrong. And no matter what you try to paint us as so desperately, no matter how much !@#$ you fling at us in the hopes that some will stick and people will start to despise us, we will still be who we are. I don't care what most of you think of us. What matters to me, and to us, is who we really are. Not what people think we are.

To hell with your sanctimonious moralizing attempts at smearing our name. Get a life.

Listen here pal, whether you want to admit it or not you do indeed owe reps, you might be able to stand up on your box with your new found power and proclaim what ever you believe to be an absolute truth but it merely throws you in with the likes of Goons v1.0 and \m/ and we all know how well there arrogance worked out for them.

KoFN was and is an alliance by just about all accepted definitions, to pull that "individual nation" BS in the same sentence as mentioning KoFN is an act that deserves to get your named smeared. I for one will enjoy linking back to this brilliant post of yours when Karma decides to pay you a visit.

Edited December 2, 2009 by Merrie Melodies

[King Chill I]

18 Days And Still No Reps From Athens

Rumor has it the Knights of Ni! have sent Londo on a trip to find some shrubbery before they will come to an agreement on reps.

This gives me an idea.

2 Days and NPO Still Sucking At Logic And PR, And Whining About Irrelevant Matters

(i hear saying it bigger makes people listen better)

Edited December 2, 2009 by King Chill I

[jerdge]

I believe it was designed to raise the question of no reparations yet being payed between Athens and KoN, while quite some time has passed.

Now, from there a debate spurred as to why it is as such and what will be the modalities of the reparations.

It is your right to not contribute anything to the topic it self, and waste our collective time as I noticed you have a tendency of, but still to answer your posed question. Anyway.

I had already read the thread, but thank you for the resume you provided.

I'm sorry that you didn't notice that my intervention was not void of content: it was (mainly) about the ad hominem attacks this discussion is plagued with.

By the way, I find it funny that you felt the need to reply to it with another personal attack... Was it a form of sarcasm satire?

[Edit:genres.]

Edited December 2, 2009 by jerdge

[Londo Mollari]

Asserting that because your alleged victims are quiet you must be treating them well is a real interesting tactic.

Go talk to them if you doubt us.

Yes, you do owe them reparations and yes, you did fold under intense external pressure.

We made several apologies under external pressure, yes. We had reasons for doing that, to be sure. But the decision to pay them reparations was ours, and was made by myself and angryraccoon before anyone outside the alliance said a word to us. As was the decision to work with Ni! with respect, to arrive at a meaningful sum and means of repayment that gave them satisfaction for the whole affair, rather than just flinging some money at their aid slots to satiate the peanut gallery and touch up our "image". I care more about seeing the right thing done than making people think we are all pretty and great. I can't expect you to bother trying to get the facts straight though. Ya'll seem to have as much of an animus against us as NPO does. Bitter, much?

[lebubu]

I for one will enjoy linking back to this brilliant post of yours when Karma decides to pay you a visit.

Athens is paying reps to an alliance it tech raided so I sincerely hope that what goes around, comes around.

[Merrie Melodies]

Athens is paying reps to an alliance it tech raided so I sincerely hope that what goes around, comes around.

Do you, personally, find nothing distasteful in the comments contained in this message?

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=2004896

[Iotupa]

What's more, by putting the money out there now, it shuts up the Jonathan Brookbanks of the world and others who will bring up the matter of the reparations again and again and further embarrass Athens.

Well, now, it certainly is nice to hear that even after my extended hiatus there are still "Jonathan Brookbank"s running around.

Listen here pal. We don't "owe" reparations to anyone. We decided quite on our own that we would make restitution to KoFN as an alliance. The individual nations, well we tech raid individual nations. And we don't pay reps for those kind of raids. The reason we decided to pay reps to KoFN is that it became clear to us after talking to them that they have an actual community, and aren't completely dead as an alliance internally. That's the only reason that we are shelling out reps. We didn't do it because of pressure from the international community. We decided to pay KoFN reps, as an alliance, because it seemed to be the right thing to do to us. Not because we stole tech from *GASP* innocent nations - any raider does that. But because we realized we had brought an unwelcome disruption to the normal function of their community. So we are paying reps to that community, and will do so under the direction of the leader of that community - who told me that the Ni! banking system would take care of the smaller members anyway. You can rant and rave all you like, but it's not going to influence our actions one damned bit. We are paying KoFN reps because of our own moral compass. We will repay the alliance on our mutual terms - not on your ideas of what we should do. The matter is between KoFN, Athens, and FoB. It is none of your business, and shrilly yapping that "it is your business" and you will stand up for the rights of the "unjustly abused" is a load of horse manure. If KoFN were being unjustly abused, they'd be posting about it here, or at least talking to their allies, who would be posting about it here. Guess what? They aren't. Athens isn't a pack of evil monsters, just because we tech raid from time to time, or just because we happened to tech raid Ni! We are an alliance that made an error in judgment about a community, and that is all. Those who know us and know our full history know that we are an honorable bunch with a strong sense of right and wrong. And no matter what you try to paint us as so desperately, no matter how much !@#$ you fling at us in the hopes that some will stick and people will start to despise us, we will still be who we are. I don't care what most of you think of us. What matters to me, and to us, is who we really are. Not what people think we are.

To hell with your sanctimonious moralizing attempts at smearing our name. Get a life.

What you did was not a raid, it was an unprovoked war on an alliance for which you posted no declaration of war or any valid casus belli. Which, in the end, was certainly your sovereign right to do, but to pretend it was "just a tech raid" just makes you look silly.

Guess what? The reps aren't about "shutting people up". It's not some part of a plan to carefully rebuild our "image". The reps are about giving the alliance KoFN satisfaction for our raid on them. And that is all. I don't particularly care what Jonathan Brookbank thinks or says about this situation. He is completely irrelevant to it, no matter how desparately he wants to matter here.

I was making inane demands of some alliance that had tech raided someone while doing my best to trade angry barbs with STA? I sure don't remember that one, Hal. Maybe you can show me what you're talking about?

I'll be seeing you sweetheart.

I am most certainly not desperate for relevance in this situation, but I appreciate your concern. I saw an injustice and questioned whether or not it was true that you were using another alliance to pay your reparations. Once you said Athens nations would be paying the reparations directly, I was quite satisfied, as that is the right thing to do. Also, it was still a war, not a raid. No matter how many times you say the word "raid," everyone will still know what it really was.

@brookbank

in regards to your feelings on reps... if i have money sitting in a bank, and i owe reps to an individual, it is wrong for me to have that bank wire the funds directly into their account? i first have to withdraw the money in cash, bundle it up and secure within briefcases, and hand deliver to the individual? seems like this would draw out the length of time it takes for the individual to see funds in their account... either way, it is my money in a bank (not necessarily in the bank i own).

First off, the NPO is not Athens' personal bank. Second, there should be zero time delay between NPO or Athens sending the reparations, as I'm sure there are enough nations in Athens with open slots that they could easily send out the aid. Sure, these nations may have to miss out on aid programs or tech deals or whatever, but that is the point of reparations. They are not supposed to be convenient for the criminal, they are supposed to be inconvenient and punish the criminal (and there is no other way to look at it, Athens is definitely the criminal here) for committing the crime.

[lebubu]

Do you, personally, find nothing distasteful in the comments contained in this message?

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=2004896

Athens recognizing its mistake and making amends is one of the few things not distasteful in a thread where people pretend they give a !@#$ about Knights of Ni and run around in circles, avoiding the perfectly valid explanation that was given at least 5 times, with the sole purpose of pushing an agenda.

What you did was not a raid, it was an unprovoked war on an alliance for which you posted no declaration of war or any valid casus belli. Which, in the end, was certainly your sovereign right to do, but to pretend it was "just a tech raid" just makes you look silly.

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what a tech raid actually is? So we can, you know, stop looking silly.

[Merrie Melodies]

Athens recognizing its mistake and making amends is one of the few things not distasteful in a thread where people pretend they give a !@#$ about Knights of Ni and run around in circles, avoiding the perfectly valid explanation that was given at least 5 times, with the sole purpose of pushing an agenda.

You completely failed to answer my question, does that mean I am free to draw my own conclusions?

Edited December 2, 2009 by Merrie Melodies

[Iotupa]

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what a tech raid actually is? So we can, you know, stop looking silly.

A tech raid doesn't involve organized strikes on an alliance.

[lebubu]

You completely failed to answer my question, does that mean I am free to draw my own conclusions?

You can draw whatever conclusions you want, I merely told you what that "distasteful" post was about and saved you the trouble of reading what you replied to.

[Gn0xious Jr]

First off, the NPO is not Athens' personal bank. Second, there should be zero time delay between NPO or Athens sending the reparations, as I'm sure there are enough nations in Athens with open slots that they could easily send out the aid. Sure, these nations may have to miss out on aid programs or tech deals or whatever, but that is the point of reparations. They are not supposed to be convenient for the criminal, they are supposed to be inconvenient and punish the criminal (and there is no other way to look at it, Athens is definitely the criminal here) for committing the crime.

I'm not discussing Athens/NPO as this was not the case for them. I was trying to have a more general discussion around the idea that someone forward funds they own, from one location to another.

Let's say Bill owes me $20 for a bet he lost, and I owe Frank $20 because I broke his front door hinge. If Bill tells me he's going over to Franks, and I say "oh, that reminds me, can you give him the $20 you owe me to pay for his door hinge?" what exactly is wrong with the method?

If the funds are owned by the "criminal," then regardless of the delivery method, they are being paid for by the "criminal" to the aggrieved party.