Caliph Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) No it doesn't. It is clearly stated nothing occurs toward peace until 90% of both nations over 4k and 90% of total alliance are out. Only then will 2 weeks of war lead to peace and payment of the largest reps in history. I haven't seen the logs, but was any credible discussion had to discuss that if 88% was able to come out of peace mode but that 12% were "ghosts", or "inactive", what would happen? The way to find out is either to ask, or to simply comply the best you can, and when you have complied the best you can place yourself fully at the mercy of your opponents. Then, and only then, can we know that the NPO is truly repentent that it is willing to put its sanction, its NS, and the majority of its memberbase (those who have conviently "forgot" to cycle in and out of PM) at the mercy of their opponents. That is, after all, exactly what the NPO has done in the past. Edited June 13, 2009 by Caliph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 It is not okay and we worked hard to end it. But to say it is unending is not true as it is over. Worked hard to end it? Again back to this....Ending a pointless 2 year old war.... Attacker: "hey, wanna stop" Defender: "yes" The end. Oh wait....Reps would have had to have been paid for all the free war training decimated FAN nations gave new Pacificans in those 2 years. I forgot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 This is incorrect. At the time of offering these terms, there were 181 nations which were eligible to pay the 300k in tech reparations. This eligibility would have remained even after they sent tech out till 0, and they could have rebought from 0 and continued sending if they desired. OK wait Londo clarify for me here. Are you saying that the nations who will be allowed to pay are the nations that now sit above 1k Tech? or will it be the nations that sit above 1k tech after the war? That'll make a huge difference in the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I haven't seen the logs, but was any credible discussion had to discuss that if 88% was able to come out of peace mode but that 12% were "ghosts", or "inactive", what would happen?The way to find out is either to ask, or to simply comply the best you can, and when you have complied the best you can place yourself fully at the mercy of your opponents. That is, after all, exactly what the NPO has done in the past. Would you feel disbandment as just in the case of NPO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) I am wondering when folks are going to realize half the people who are responsible for the policies they hated about the NPO during the time frames they're holding us responsible for have moved on to other alliances and though the other half are still here, there are still a bunch of us who are young in the alliance and merely joined it because they saw a quality operation even if they disagreed with a few of the policies. I've never really liked PZI/EZI. I'm much more in favor of monitoring enemies after peacing out conflicts until if/when they pose a threat again and then dealing with them on that basis. Not going to name names, point fingers, etc. I'm just noting while you're trying to nail folks responsible.. half of them have gotten away.. and you're including the good along with the bad in any assessment you make with the NPO. The noble along with those you consider less so because of their past actions. Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Worked hard to end it? Again back to this....Ending a pointless 2 year old war.... Attacker: "hey, wanna stop" Defender: "yes" The end. Oh wait....Reps would have had to have been paid for all the free war training decimated FAN nations gave new Pacificans in those 2 years. I forgot. Any easier than if you eventually felt war with NPO was wrong and tried to talk Revenghe into giving NPO white peace. I doubt you'd find it as simple as you have characterized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Throne Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Let me at first simply state, I hold no sympathy for the Emperor of the New Pacific Order or most of his cadre. They have long ago broken the ancient codes of brotherhood that have existed since before they came to being. They have bled blood of their brothers. They have chased people they used to call comrades to the world’s ending, tarnishing their own past in the process. They have destroyed too many heroes and they have rewritten history too many times.Yet it seems as if all the “horrible” things that have taken place in this planet were the sole work of the New Pacific Order. The world, as we see it today, was shaped by a large coalition of people, under different names and affiliation, who agreed on several basic pillars of Order dominance. I can cite a few: that spying is an act of war, that alliances should be held responsible in their entirety for the actions of their leaders and, most importantly, that a credible threat to an alliance should be put down by any means necessary. Many rulers, some of them at the peak of the Karma hierarchy, have aided the New Pacific Order and profited from this dominance. They have built their reputations and careers under the wings of the Order. They have built their alliances benefiting from their dominance. The people I speak of were accomplices to these crimes. And here they are, today, wrapping this war up by the rules of the old world. Participants and accomplices to a new “crime”. These terms will not end a cycle of war and destruction. They will perpetuate war and destruction. The leaders of this war coalition will eventually be held to their record, past and present. I praise the Emperor of the New Polar Order for staying away from these proceedings. He saw what was in the making long before any of us did. To the nations of the New Pacific Order, I hope you have the patience to endure what is coming soon. There is some semblance of hope, in that what your enemies do to you today is the start of their own undoing. Stand tall and brave. You have been humbled, but you will not be broken. Nothing can break our will to survive and overcome. We stand stronger and more united now than we have in a very long time - this war, while it has damaged our infrastructure and our political image, is also stripping away the weak and cowardly from our ranks. Also for the first paragraph, you did the same to GOONS. Just sayin' . (Going to bed now, this thread will probably be closed by the time I wake up tomorrow). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadie Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I've caught up!That deserves a smoke, which at my age is something. By the time I get back, I expect at least 10 more pages! Don't do it! Every time I go to have one, I can't get caught up until it's about time for another. It's a bad circular thingy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 I am wondering when folks are going to realize half the people who are responsible for the policies they hated about the NPO during the time frames they're holding us responsible for have moved on to other alliances and though the other half are still here, there are still a bunch of us who are young in the alliance and merely joined it because they saw a quality operation even if they disagreed with a few of the policies. I've never really liked PZI/EZI. I'm much more in favor of monitoring enemies after peacing out conflicts until if/when they pose a threat again and then dealing with them on that basis. Not going to name names, point fingers, etc. I'm just noting while you're trying to nail folks responsible.. half of them have gotten away.. and you're including the good along with the bad in any assessment you make with the NPO. Who are you referring to? I'm not aware of essentially any IOs leaving in the 2+ years I've been on Bob (save those that went to vox :s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Paradise Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Whilst the terms are no doubt hefty, it brings me nothing but satisfaction to see the NPO remain at war. Indeed. While I was reading though the OP, I had the dreadful thought that the war was over. I was pleasantly surprised to see that it was nothing more than a whiny rejection of terms. It's much more satisfying to watch His Imperial Majesty bawl like an infant than surrender with dignity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Who are you referring to? I'm not aware of essentially any IOs leaving in the 2+ years I've been on Bob (save those that went to vox :s). Not going to name names, point fingers, etc. I'm just noting while you're trying to nail folks responsible.. half of them have gotten away.. and you're including the good along with the bad in any assessment you make with the NPO. I'm past finger pointing and waving. That's not my job, good sir. I will just say that the doctrines most disliked were entrenched in the culture far before Emperor Revenge came to power. Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energizer Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Nothing can break our will to survive and overcome. We stand stronger and more united now than we have in a very long time - this war, while it has damaged our infrastructure and our political image, is also stripping away the weak and cowardly from our ranks. Right. Well have fun living like FAN for.. well, awhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mussolandia Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Nothing can break our will to survive and overcome. We stand stronger and more united now than we have in a very long time - this war, while it has damaged our infrastructure and our political image, is also stripping away the weak and cowardly from our ranks. Also for the first paragraph, you did the same to GOONS. Just sayin' . (Going to bed now, this thread will probably be closed by the time I wake up tomorrow). I was never taught to consider them my brothers. Yet again, I believe you miss the main point I was bringing up. All our records are tarnished in some way or another, but you are being held accountable for everyone's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicninja Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Who are you referring to? I'm not aware of essentially any IOs leaving in the 2+ years I've been on Bob (save those that went to vox :s). Pretty sure he is talking about alliances that were right by NPO's side the last few years and then decided the gravy train had ran it's course and fought with Karma. You know who they are. It's actually a pretty good sized list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krack Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 This thread really needed less poor understanding of war mechanics, bad math, attempts to deflect blame, and double talk ... and more "Let's give it the old college try and see if we can't get 90% of our nations into war mode by the end of next week so we can accept the lenient terms we were given and end this war so we can begin the process of showing Planet Bob that we realize we were terrible sports for years and want to make amends through our actions going forward." /You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Vortex Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) Pretty sure he is talking about alliances that were right by NPO's side the last few years and then decided the gravy train had ran it's course and fought with Karma. You know who they are. It's actually a pretty good sized list. No, many of these persons were once internal to the NPO also, but they're now not. Some are affiliated with the alliances you have brought to light all. But some are not. Some are in entirely new alliances.. leading them in fact. All you need to do is delve into the history of the NPo to find the names on the doctrines you hate. Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Who are you referring to? I'm not aware of essentially any IOs leaving in the 2+ years I've been on Bob (save those that went to vox :s). Filler13 went to FAN and is gone. Mussolandia wandered aimlessly and then went to NSO. LordValentine went to Vox and is gone. Ivan Moldavi left and resurfaced to form NSO. Beyond these four and myself, I can't think of any others that left the Order. I guess it's all Ivan's fault, since the rest of us were "irrelevant", "never trusted", etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 But as quoted does every alliance build up spies? It could be argued, quite reasonably actually, that accepting information from a treasonous member of another alliance, protecting the identity of that treasoner, and lets be blunt and honest, a sincere hope to use that treasoner for further information in the future....is in fact...building up spies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliph Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Would you feel disbandment as just in the case of NPO? Yes, as they have stood by while others have done their best to make \m/ and other "former" NPO allies disband. But I do not want them to disband. These terms do not state that a disbandment is necessary. The alliances at war with the NPO have stated that peace is their goal, once they have achieved their strategic and military aims for this conflict. NPO is playing games, trying to manipulate the situation so that the NPO loses the least in the long term. The NPO is already orchastrating this PR campaign by calling in all the allies they have left to try to turn public opinion against Karma in an attempt to force Karma into accepting NPO's terms, which will make sure that NPO can pass the reparations on to lower nations who either weren't around for NPO's crimes, who didn't benefit from NPO's actions, or who simply were following orders. Peace must be agreed to on Karma's terms, not NPO's. NPO has tried to play games by "refusing" to come out of PM and willingly ignored the fact that we flat out told them peace terms will be adjusted daily based on NPO members in peace mode. Now NPO is saying they can't pay these reps. The reps will only get higher if the peace mode stipulations remain in affect. It is better to take the terms now, rather than get beat down for another month, and then be faced with the rising costs associated with having members staying in peace mode. The NPO has brought these harsh reps upon themselves at every step of the way. Frankly given NPO's behavior both here and a month ago, I would be for not offering NPO terms for a few more months, but that choice is not up to me. To be honest, NPO is not negotiating in the spirit of peace, they are negotiating on the theory that they can spin any reps into a pity party for the NPO and try to force Karma into giving them light terms until the political and military situation changes in a way as to give the NPO an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venizelos Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 After reviewing the situation more closely, especially since a couple of people, including Cortath, have argued that you can be nuked thrice in one day and thus convinced me, I've determined that... it appears that these people haven't ever been in nuclear war because you can't be nuked more than once a day NPO IO war expertise FTW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 (edited) I am wondering when folks are going to realize half the people who are responsible for the policies they hated about the NPO during the time frames they're holding us responsible for have moved on to other alliances and though the other half are still here Sure am hearing this one on a lot of fronts. Tell me again which Emperor it was that led the charge against the former-WUT like CIS, VE, and FAN again? Edit: Hell, can't forget Polar either. Edited June 13, 2009 by Xiphosis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 OK wait Londo clarify for me here. Are you saying that the nations who will be allowed to pay are the nations that now sit above 1k Tech? or will it be the nations that sit above 1k tech after the war? That'll make a huge difference in the argument. Yes. This is the most current version of the drafted terms: 2) Reparations of up to 300,000 tech and $7,000,000,000 will be assessed upon the New Pacific Order. This shall be determined dependent on their ability to pay after the aforementioned period of war, in the judgement of the Karma signatories of this document. All reparations of the 300,000 technology must be paid by nations with greater than or equal to 1000.00 technology upon the signing of these terms. The $7,000,000,000 is freely convertable to technology at a rate of 100 technology per 3 million. In addition, technology that is converted from money may be sent by any nation. Hence the mention of 181 eligible nations to pay the 300k in tech reps. (there were 181 nations at the time who were eligible, number may have dropped a bit now). If you're in that 181, your nation is eligible to send those reps. And you can send tech until you bottom out, buy more, and keep sending. You're not required to buy tech at 1000 and keep sending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yes, as they have stood by while others have done their best to make \m/ and other "former" NPO allies disband. NPO didn't fight \m/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 Yes. This is the most current version of the drafted terms:Hence the mention of 181 eligible nations to pay the 300k in tech reps. (there were 181 nations at the time who were eligible, number may have dropped a bit now). If you're in that 181, your nation is eligible to send those reps. And you can send tech until you bottom out, buy more, and keep sending. You're not required to buy tech at 1000 and keep sending. Admin help you when "karma" comes your way londo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 NPO didn't fight \m/ True, but they did fight GOLD in that same war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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