Peace in Spite of Time

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1296793015' post='2618822']
You always were one of the most reasonable, level-headed people around. Good to see you still are.

I personally appreciate it this, Raga.
[/quote]
Ragashingo is a guy I can respect.

[Ironfist]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296748423' post='2617792']
Perhaps GATO doing what it always does just isn't as interesting as other world events. Seems a bit silly to call attention back to your failure. I love you guys, but again? Really?
[/quote]

We're so boring

But dammit we'll keep posting!

EDIT: Just saw it your latest post. Very appreciated.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Ironfist

[benjaminperdomo]

[quote name='Chimaera' timestamp='1296785631' post='2618522']
It is an alliance's duty to do what is in its best interests. GATO has done more for the Empire than any alliance in the history of Planet Bob, and nothing shall ever change that. They are, and always shall be, our closest friend and brother. Any person, be they member of IAA or not, who disparages that in an attempt to score some petty PR points here will have to answer to me. The Imperial Assault Alliance will, as always, bleed and die for GATO, as they have done for us.

Thank you, my friends, for a battle well fought and blood well spilled.
[/quote]

Chim
IAA

[Louisa]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296710264' post='2617150']
Careful with those quote marks. No one said several years.
[/quote]
I would guess that bit came from this bit:

[quote name='Wad of Lint' timestamp='1296688691' post='2616656']
Any change NPO makes will always be "temporary" in your eyes. Even if it lasts four years.
[/quote]
I have no idea why he picked specifically the number four, but there you have it I guess?

Now let us start a new war ok?

[TypoNinja]

Yea I quoted back across like 4 pages, catching up from over night

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296682421' post='2616551']
Yes a pledge. I'll go with promise or agreement if you wish.

But seriously, I mean no reps, period. I know many in my own alliance have expressed that opinion and I've seen others from the alliances on our side mention it as well. I realize I might be speaking for those I don't have a right to, but I think the idea of paying reps for defending an ally (like STA did) or simply existing in peace (like NPO) is something that is... not in favor.
[/quote]

Nuclear wars are expensive, and damaging, even to the victors. Rep's are more likely the longer it drags out, just to offset operations costs if nothing else.

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296683533' post='2616581']
Alliances that are aggressively attacked, or that honor defensive treaties, should never pay reps.

Alliances that attack aggressively, whether as the instigator, or by activating aggression clauses, should never receive reps.
[/quote]

*Looks at NPO AA*

Did you say that with a straight face? Be honest.

I bet not

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296686543' post='2616632']
Then we had that big war to correct their behavior and they made a major shift in policy, no wars, limited treaties, and their members (like the one above) are saying the right things.
[/quote]

That's not a matter of motive so much as opportunity, after a smack down NPO couldn't keep pursuing their old polices, they suddenly lacked the allies or even political influence to get anything at all done (see red raiding safari), their treaties got severely cut back when most everyone canceled on them, and those who didn't got them deleted under terms. The treaties NPO got back are the most die hard of its core supporters, nobody else wants anything to do with them.

NPO had to change, if they'd kept trying to be the old NPO post karma we'd have just rolled them again. Not being stupid enough to commit suicide inst the same thing as a change of heart. Granted there is no way to prove which they are to its critics at this point, which is more than a little unfair, but sometimes life sucks.

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1296739386' post='2617672']
Paranoia will be your downfall.
[/quote]

Not really, besides its more like speculation. Expect even then no, its not, because we know exactly how you'd act given the chance.


[quote name='Empress Elizabeth' timestamp='1296757996' post='2617927']
Has anyone else noticed that our only allies that are really defending us in this thread are Athens and ODN? I mean IAA of course posted the mandatory "We have no ill will....blah blah blah", but of course Omni added a nice jab at the end of his post. We didn't join this war to get rolled. We aren't pixel hugging hippies, but whats the point in burning to the ground when are ally is clearing going to burn with NpO. We aren't treatied to NpO, and thats not to say that I don't like NpO I have a few friends there, but our fate isn't tied to theirs. In reality we are treatied to our allies, I believe we have 6, so dont say its all our fault that we got put in the middle of this, we love our allies. And we feel the best way to help was to get them peace with RIA and then be there to rebuild them after the war.
[/quote]

I really wish more people had this attitude, too many people let their treaties (and treaty chains more specifically) decide their FA for them. More people need to grow the spine necessary to stand up and determine what they want and who they stand with, regardless of what chains manage to drag them in first. (This of course assumes you disagree with the origins of any given conflict, if you agree by all means chain the hell out of it )

GATO decided it didn't want to burn for NpO, fair enough, they did what they could for their allies that have decided burning for NpO is a good idea. Some of these alliances (who frankly were probably unlikely to get the offer without GATO's negotiation) now have very light terms on the table should they choose to take it. That's a fairly sweet deal.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1296849491' post='2619458']Nuclear wars are expensive, and damaging, even to the victors. Rep's are more likely the longer it drags out, just to offset operations costs if nothing else.[/quote]

Reps rarely if ever come close to the actual damage done and it's not like both sides didn't take massive damage. The war part of a war should be the end of the damage an alliance has to suffer. 

Besides who in their right mind will accepts reps now? The NPO paid for a year and all it got them was a second war which they were too crippled to fight properly. 

Reps have always been the tool of the merciless and corrupt. 3x so if they are used in this unprovoked joke of a war. 

[quote]Granted there is no way to prove which they are to its critics at this point, which is more than a little unfair, but sometimes life sucks.[/quote]

Nice of you to make my argument for me. This war is undeserved. There's really no point in saying more than that. 

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296851991' post='2619489']
Reps rarely if ever come close to the actual damage done and it's not like both sides didn't take massive damage. The war part of a war should be the end of the damage an alliance has to suffer. 

Besides who in their right mind will accepts reps now? The NPO paid for a year and all it got them was a second war which they were too crippled to fight properly. 

Reps have always been the tool of the merciless and corrupt. 3x so if they are used in this unprovoked joke of a war. 
[/quote]

Posts like this are why I'll be cheering for giving your alliance reps later instead of feeling bad about it.


[quote]
Nice of you to make my argument for me. This war is undeserved. There's really no point in saying more than that. 
[/quote]

I quoted several people, the two bits you quoted we fairly unrelated. NPO's inability to prove or disprove their motives to the world at large are not related to the actions Polar's gov took to start this war.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1296849491' post='2619458']
*Looks at NPO AA*

Did you say that with a straight face? Be honest.

I bet not [/quote]

I will simply point you to this post:

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296685372' post='2616618']
My personal position is my personal position and it has remained constant. I guess that, just as I am not a good Francoist, I am also not a good inflicter of jackboot-on-the-throat tactics after an enemy has been defeated. I cannot guarantee that my own philosophy concerning the imposition of reparations will be followed by my alliance as a whole. I can only hope that is the case if we are ever in a scenario where we are the aggressors in a conflict. Obviously, that is not something I will have to worry about in this war, since nobody can claim that we are the aggressors.
[/quote]


[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1296856534' post='2619534']
Posts like this are why I'll be cheering for giving your alliance reps later instead of feeling bad about it.
[/quote]

Posts like this only strengthen my distaste for people who espouse your rather reprehensible philosophy.

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296851991' post='2619489'] The NPO paid for a year and all it got them was a second war which they were too crippled to fight properly. 
[/quote]

NPO paid for a year because they dragged their feet and moved as slow as possible. I don't fault them for it, as I've told them in our embassy multiple times. I, in their position, would of done the same, but that doesn't change the fact that it didn't need to take that long. They weren't crippled either because of the reps, with the time they spent dragging their feet, they could of been preparing better in many ways. Instead they didn't take the advice offered to them, they kept their old friends mostly, their rulers mostly kept the same attitude in here, and they wound up staying isolated and an easy target. If they'd branched out more from the surrender on forwards they wouldn't be in this spot. I actually hate that this war hit them now, as they had recently been making massive strides in breaking out of their old mold, opening new avenues of diplomacy really effectively. Shame that this war is pretty much going to poison the goodwill they'd been showing, and just turn them even more into what folks fear, a bitter boogeyman waiting for the chance to get even.

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' timestamp='1296858171' post='2619561']
NPO paid for a year because they dragged their feet and moved as slow as possible. I don't fault them for it, as I've told them in our embassy multiple times. I, in their position, would of done the same, but that doesn't change the fact that it didn't need to take that long. They weren't crippled either because of the reps, with the time they spent dragging their feet, they could of been preparing better in many ways. Instead they didn't take the advice offered to them, they kept their old friends mostly, their rulers mostly kept the same attitude in here, and they wound up staying isolated and an easy target. If they'd branched out more from the surrender on forwards they wouldn't be in this spot. [b]I actually hate that this war hit them now, as they had recently been making massive strides in breaking out of their old mold, opening new avenues of diplomacy really effectively.[/b] Shame that this war is pretty much going to poison the goodwill they'd been showing, and just turn them even more into what folks fear, a bitter boogeyman waiting for the chance to get even.
[/quote]


I have some reason to believe that the bolded section of your post is actually one of the motivators for DH launching this war in the first place. It was not the belief that we haven't evolved, but rather the recognition that in fact we have.


fake edit: Although I have never had much affection for GOD in general, I do personally admire the quality of your individual posts.

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1296856534' post='2619534']
Posts like this are why I'll be cheering for giving your alliance reps later instead of feeling bad about it.[/quote]

Wow... That was one of my less offensive post, I'd hate to see which fate you'd wish on my alliance if I actually spoke out about your alliance or you! My stance on reps is a long long held conviction. I've never ever liked reps no matter who is handing them out. Did you perhaps misunderstand me or my intent or do you just love handing out reps (or hate STA) that much???

Honestly I don't get your hostility.

[quote]I quoted several people, the two bits you quoted we fairly unrelated. NPO's inability to prove or disprove their motives to the world at large are not related to the actions Polar's gov took to start this war.
[/quote]

And I didn't try to relate them. I quoted a portion of you post talking about N[b]P[/b]O for a reason. Unless I'm mistaken You hadn't even mentioned NpO yet in your post!

What I was saying was that you saved me the time of arguing that the NPO was being treated unfairly. That's all. 

I of course have thoughts on the NpO's war but I've long moved on to the NPO's situation which I feel is more important.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Ragashingo

[Crymson]

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296858482' post='2619566']
I have some reason to believe that the bolded section of your post is actually one of the motivators for DH launching this war in the first place. It was not the belief that we haven't evolved, but rather the recognition that in fact we have.
[/quote]

Sigh.

Those of us who have been in the NPO and/or have worked extensively with the NPO at the government level are very aware of just how little capacity the NPO has for change in character. Many in the NPO who are on the less firebrand end of the alliance's scale don't really have any difficulty in agreeing.

Spare us the prevarication. Also, please spare us the straw-grasping. The NPO was attacked for the reasons laid out in the DoW. There's not much else to it, no matter what you'd like to believe.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Crymson

[Joe Izuzu]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1296859271' post='2619580']
Sigh.

Those of us who have been in the NPO and/or have worked extensively with the NPO at the government level are very aware of just how little capacity the NPO has for change in character. Many in the NPO who are on the less firebrand end of the alliance's scale don't really have any difficulty in agreeing.

Spare us the prevarication. Also, please spare us the straw-grasping. The NPO was attacked for the reasons laid out in the DoW. There's not much else to it, no matter what you'd like to believe.
[/quote]


How long ago were you in NPO, Crymson? It has been at least 3 years or more, I believe. So your ability to accurately assess the mindset of the NPO under Cortath's rule would be somewhat limited, don't you think? And how long ago did you actually attempt to work in any productive fashion with us? Simply denigrating our willingness to embrace new behaviors does not constitute a legitimate attempt to achieve rapport.

As to my attempts at "prevarication", all of my statements are truthful and you have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. Although I understand your need to continuously spew vitriol and attempt to discredit any NPO member who suggests that we have actually made a concerted attempt to move forward, that need does not establish any credence as to your assertions.

There have been a fairly large number of individuals, many from the opposite "side", who have stated that, in their opinions, we have made an effort to effect actual change. Forgive me if I give their objective perceptions slightly more weight than your more personally motivated jabs.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296859088' post='2619577']
Wow... That was one of my less offensive post, I'd hate to see which fate you'd wish on my alliance if I actually spoke out about your alliance or you! My stance on reps is a long long held conviction. I've never ever liked reps no matter who is handing them out. Did you perhaps misunderstand me or my intent or do you just love handing out reps (or hate STA) that much???

Honestly I don't get your hostility.
[/quote]

Its not hostility, and its not about offensive or not. Trash talk is commonplace that doesn't bother me. Stupidity bothers me, I think homeopathy is awesome, not because it works, because it doesn't its complete !@#$, but because it represents a stupid tax.*

There is a fine line between propaganda and spin, and outright lies and stupidity. The first two are even respectable when done well, the second two, which I see all too much of here, are the ones that make me decide I couldn't care less if somebody suffers or not.


Its worth noting that this war also represents a stupid tax, Polar got caught out doing something they should have known better about.

Edited February 5, 2011 by TypoNinja

[Crymson]

[quote name='Joe Izuzu' timestamp='1296860106' post='2619591']
How long ago were you in NPO, Crymson? It has been at least 3 years or more, I believe. So your ability to accurately assess the mindset of the NPO under Cortath's rule would be somewhat limited, don't you think? And how long ago did you actually attempt to work in any productive fashion with us? Simply denigrating our willingness to embrace new behaviors does not constitute a legitimate attempt to achieve rapport.

As to my attempts at "prevarication", all of my statements are truthful and you have absolutely no evidence to the contrary. Although I understand your need to continuously spew vitriol and attempt to discredit any NPO member who suggests that we have actually made a concerted attempt to move forward, that need does not establish any credence as to your assertions.
[/quote]

As I've said, I have more than enough experience with the [b]character[/b] of your alliance to make the assertions I've made. Who the emperor is really doesn't change a whole lot about the [b]character[/b] of the alliance. Sure, some of the decisions may be a bit different, but any emperor in power will still be driven by the same cultural imperatives as any of the others.

Also, do you think that this purple prose makes you sound more convincing? I, too, could phrase my posts as if I were an orator, but I don't see the need.

[quote]
There have been a fairly large number of individuals, many from the opposite "side", who have stated that, in their opinions, we have made an effort to effect actual change. Forgive me if I give their objective perceptions slightly more weight than your more personally motivated jabs.
[/quote]

Interesting! There are numerous members of the NPO whom I've spoken with who have completely agreed with my assertion that the alliance's character does not leave any room for change. Whose word is more accurate?

Edited February 5, 2011 by Crymson

[Ragashingo]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1296869309' post='2619693']
Its not hostility, and its not about offensive or not. Trash talk is commonplace that doesn't bother me. Stupidity bothers me, I think homeopathy is awesome, not because it works, because it doesn't its complete !@#$, but because it represents a stupid tax.*

There is a fine line between propaganda and spin, and outright lies and stupidity. The first two are even respectable when done well, the second two, which I see all too much of here, are the ones that make me decide I couldn't care less if somebody suffers or not.


Its worth noting that this war also represents a stupid tax, Polar got caught out doing something they should have known better about.
[/quote]

Right... I suppose it was too much to expect you to respond to what I said. I've already tried to clarify and instead of agreeing or disagreeing with me you went off on a rant about stupidity. At best I'd have to conclude that you spent a lot of words to call me stupid since you certainly didn't talk about reps or the war on the NPO being unfair. Enough is enough. Goodbye.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Ragashingo

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Ragashingo' timestamp='1296876768' post='2619796']
Right... I suppose it was too much to expect you to respond to what I said. I've already tried to clarify and instead of agreeing or disagreeing with me you went off on a rant about stupidity. At best I'd have to conclude that you spent a lot of words to call me stupid since you certainly didn't talk about reps or the war on the NPO being unfair. Enough is enough. Goodbye.
[/quote]

I did respond directly to what you said, you tried to imply I was seeking to punish people based upon them disagreeing with me, then offered the false choice between me being a meanie who likes to hand out reps of flat out just not liking your alliance.

Neither is true, I have no special love, nor hate, of Reps and am in favor of handing them out when appropriate. Yes Appropriate as judged by me.

You followed it up by trying to ascribe a negative emotion to my position (hostility) and attacking my motive instead of my points.

My post was explaining that it was not about hostility, getting angry I find is a waste of effort. Disagreement, if done rationally is not disagreeable (har har ) to me. Its when a counter argument slips from the rational into irrational that I begin to accumulate distaste for one arguing. Hence my example with homeopathy. Seeing foolish people paying for being foolish makes me happy. Schadenfreude, its called.

Thanks for reinforcing my original point by the way, I gave you real insight into my thought process and motivations and you've hand waved it away with a claim of name calling and a 'take my ball and go home' approach to discourse.

Which brings me back to my original point, I enjoy seeing bad things happen to people I don't like, so while my desire to see your alliance burdened with reps has nothing to do with your posting, your posting has affected how I would feel about your alliance being burdened by reps.

Edited February 5, 2011 by TypoNinja

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1296849491' post='2619458']
Some of these alliances (who frankly were probably unlikely to get the offer without GATO's negotiation) now have very light terms on the table should they choose to take it. That's a fairly sweet deal.
[/quote]

I can tell that you don't know who got peace for who.

[Heft]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1296754019' post='2617873']
It's ironic that you say this. Declaring your own viewpoint as objective and accusing any dissenters of being in denial of the truth is about as destructive to a discussion as one could get, and you did exactly that.
[/quote]
Not if I'm right. Which I am.


Anyway, congratulations to GATO on leaving your allies at war and promising not to defend them. Hail!

[Kubla Khan]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1296890081' post='2620211']
I can tell that you don't know who got peace for who.
[/quote]

Do elaborate, my good sir?

[Chris Kaos]

[quote name='Kubla Khan' timestamp='1296898806' post='2620333']
Do elaborate, my good sir?
[/quote]
I'm also curious about this one, Omni.

Who got peace for whom, exactly? And we'd like details, instead of less than subtle implications of trumped up heroics.

[Crymson]

[quote name='Kubla Khan' timestamp='1296898806' post='2620333']
Do elaborate, my good sir?
[/quote]

Omni has already voiced his belief that TOP orchestrated this entire war, so one can only guess at what's going through his head here.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Crymson

[Kubla Khan]

[quote name='Crymson' timestamp='1296927281' post='2620612']
Omni has already voiced his belief that TOP orchestrated this entire war, so one can only guess at what's going through his head here.
[/quote]

If it is the same thing thats coming out of the Snowman's mouth, I would say hot air.

I await your explanation Omni, with eager anticipation.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1296899022' post='2620337']
I'm also curious about this one, Omni.

Who got peace for whom, exactly? And we'd like details, instead of less than subtle implications of trumped up heroics.
[/quote]

Then find me on irc. I did in fact get GATO white peace. If someone who knows about the situation would like to come and verify this then you'll know.

Edited February 6, 2011 by Omniscient1

[Schattenmann]

I keep thinking the title should have been "Peace in spite of allies" instead of what you chose.