Backroom Extortion is Back

[brickyard]

mk: experts in artificial constructions to aid us in extorting money


[IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/2zgf7vb.jpg[/IMG]

[Banksy]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1289253818' post='2506559']
Saying isn't the same as finding. I hope you have enough money to jump to my level.
[/quote]
This isn't an insult against me, this is an insult against all of MK, believe me when I say eliminating this verbal threat is at our number one priority right now. We will have no trouble finding people willing to defend MK's honour in your range.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1289253592' post='2506554']
When members $%&@ up, it's not just an "individual" !@#$@#$ up. That individual is a member of an alliance and he's wearing colours. That's the basis of most CBs out there, that alliances are responsible for the actions of their members. How many were rolled for actually accepting information or having a spy in their midst? Did the whole alliance get rolled or just an individual?

Obviously, as the offense wasn't as serious, we didn't pursue war, despite NSO trying to throw their members out there as some kind of cheap bargaining tool.

Dochartaigh, if NSO had been so opposed to the ammount, don't you think that they would have tried to bring it down? We talked to three of their higher ups, and an imperator emeritus, and none of them has tried to bring the numbers down. Not once. They never counter-offered anything.

If they don't want to pay, next time, they can also, you know, negotiate.
[/quote]Alliances also invariably have the option of releasing their base members to face the consequences alone when those base members violate the will of the command of the alliance. Which is what happened in this case.

The only time that an alliance is forced to be held accountable is when the guy who screws up also happens to be the leader, or close to that. Even ministers will typically be given the boot and that would be accepted as sufficient.

In this case, MK gave no option for NSO to boot the guy, even though the guy violated NSO policy.

Lets say someone joins MK, then they go nuke rogue on GOONS while flying the MK AA. You're saying MK is liable for those damages, even though it's something that you never could have predicted, and goes against your official word?

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289253631' post='2506555']
Besides not having any ministers at all, 64Digits does not make a policy of resigning our new members to a life of tech slavery so that the upper tier can grow without bound. I'm sorry to hear that is now new members of MK are treated.
[/quote]

[img]http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2008/09/30/sp-raiders_0499228725.jpg[/img]

THE GREATNESS OF THE MUSHROOM KINGDOM!

[ktarthan]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289253090' post='2506539']
Please tell me where you are getting 250 tech for only $5 million (Or, as such a rate is more commonly expressed, 3 million for 150 tech). I'd love to be in on a deal that sweet. 'cause nowadays, it's hard to get even 100/$3m going. Usually you have to settle for 50/$3m.
[/quote]
Apologies, my finger slipped and I hit 12 instead of 15. It's [i]$22.5m[/i] at 3m/100t, which is still a fifteen minute drive from $30m.

[quote]
Right, because MK didn't coerce NSO into paying fees for damages that were outside NSO's responsibility? Maybe MK feels entitled to it, but it doesn't mean they can make anyone they want pay. The person paying has to be responsible for the damages caused, and in this case, NSO falls short of that requirement. Therefore, it is extortion.

It's like if your neighbor shot me in the leg, and I demanded that you should pay my medical bills because I saw you at a party with him last week. So it is not merely extortionist, it is straight up extortion. Literally, extortion, I'm not using the word as a sensationalized cry of wrongdoing. It is, literally, extortion.

In my example, I give them an [i]option[/i], where they can pay damages to retain the member [i]or[/i] release the member. There is no such option here, and that is the big issue. Whether or not I would eventually settle on an additional $3m "slot usage fee" is irrelevant to the bigger picture.

NSO isn't optionally taking responsibility to retain a member, they are being blamed for something that they clearly had no responsibility for, nor do they desire to take responsibility. Placing blame on them is an artificial construction by MK in order to extort money from NSO.
[/quote]
You'll have to excuse me, I've been awake since yesterday and am having a difficult time keeping my points straight. I'm going to have to settle for admitting that I see the merits of what you are saying, and while I disagree somewhat, my rebuttal is currently a grey slurrey sloshing around the bottom of my skull and that isn't very useful.

[welshgazza1992]

I'm not the NSO's biggest fan, but i'm not particularly proud of MK's actions here.

[2burnt2eat]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289253979' post='2506563']
This isn't an insult against me, this is an insult against all of MK, believe me when I say eliminating this verbal threat is at our number one priority right now. We will have no trouble finding people willing to defend MK's honour in your range.
[/quote]
I see your loophole. You have no honor to defend. I see through your threats.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289251864' post='2506524']
There is a difference between canceling a trade and stealing money from us.
[/quote]
No.

The logs indicate that part of the grievance was also the loss of funds during a back collection.

I repeat/rephrase...

If an MK nation canceled trades without notice and ruined 5 other nations back collections would MK pay $3mil/50tech in reparations to those nations?

[u][b]EDIT:[/b][/u] Lebubu, you prolly know where I'm going with this? The exact same thing happened this weekend when an MKer without notice canceled trades on nations that I organized a trade circle for. He stated he is not allowed off aqua and did not allow 2-3 days courtesy cancelation for me to find a replacement. He joined the trade circle got his collection and left.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Fernando12

[tamerlane]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1289253818' post='2506559']
Saying isn't the same as finding. I hope you have enough money to jump to my level.
[/quote]


I've got enough money to do that!

[SoADarthCyfe6]

Quite the interesting topic indeed. I have to agree with RV on this issue. Clearly as the Conversation went on, MK started throwing the power card down. RV is correct if MK tried this on RoK or Fark, they would tell them to roll the guy or $%&@ off. I as sure as hell wouldn't pay those reps, it's quite the absurd amount as well. Trades are trades, if your going to war an entire alliance over one person (although NSO is notorious for that ) because of a trade, then it really wouldn't go over the OWF to well on the aggressors part.

I will say it is Extortion.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='tolkheleknar' timestamp='1289253122' post='2506540']
Yes, please interpret this as hard, unchangeable MK policy towards all canceled trades, ever, in the future. This logic is bedrock-solid.
[/quote]
The main issue here isn't that you may undertake the same kind of actions in the future (though the precedent you are setting here is part of it), the problem is the fact that you have just carried out these actions against NSO. Or is something only bad when you can prove a pattern of behaviour? You just extracted 15M and 250T through the threat of war from an alliance who would have been liable for at most 3M [i]if the nation was being retained as a member[/i]. NSO said you were free to do what you wanted with him, yet you still pressured them into paying for your lost revenue.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289254059' post='2506566']
Alliances also invariably have the option of releasing their base members to face the consequences alone when those base members violate the will of the command of the alliance. Which is what happened in this case.

The only time that an alliance is forced to be held accountable is when the guy who screws up also happens to be the leader, or close to that. Even ministers will typically be given the boot and that would be accepted as sufficient.

In this case, MK gave no option for NSO to boot the guy, even though the guy violated NSO policy.

Lets say someone joins MK, then they go nuke rogue on GOONS while flying the MK AA. You're saying MK is liable for those damages, even though it's something that you never could have predicted, and goes against your official word?
[/quote]
Yes, we would very likely pay the GOONS to help them with the damage suffered. You wouldn't see us claim that the guy isn't a member, or wasn't a member, or was a ghost, or was a masked ghost, or finally that our former Emperor has no idea what he's talking about, and the same goes for two of our highest ranked government officials, etc.

In this particular situation, giving the boot to a guy with 130 levels of infrastructure was the easiest solution and, quite frankly, a way to avoid facing responsibilitiy (as a collective) by abandoning one individual.

We didn't feel like it was a good solution and refused it. They could have bargained on what we asked, they didn't. Instead, we had to hear about RV's principles and now see him make a fuss about it.

Which is amusing, really, because it's almost as if they willingly accepted it only because they knew it was high enough for them to play the outrage card. They could have lowered it, they could have negotiated. They didn't. That's all there is to it.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289222391' post='2506017']
Here an individual, protected by NSO for all intents and purposes, deliberately gamed multiple nations to his own benefit. It is only appropriate that he pay something back to every individual wronged, and then some.

[/quote]

The individual was not Protected by NSO, you'll find that in the logs.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289254654' post='2506579']
The main issue here isn't that you may undertake the same kind of actions in the future (though the precedent you are setting here is part of it), the problem is the fact that you have just carried out these actions against NSO. Or is something only bad when you can prove a pattern of behaviour? You just extracted 15M and 250T through the threat of war from an alliance who would have been liable for at most 3M [i]if the nation was being retained as a member[/i]. NSO said you were free to do what you wanted with him, yet you still pressured them into paying for your lost revenue.
[/quote]

Actually the main issue is that surely RV will try to negotiate before settling so that he can post the logs on the owf.

[Cotillion]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289254654' post='2506579']
The main issue here isn't that you may undertake the same kind of actions in the future (though the precedent you are setting here is part of it), the problem is the fact that you have just carried out these actions against NSO. Or is something only bad when you can prove a pattern of behaviour? You just extracted 15M and 250T through the threat of war from an alliance who would have been liable for at most 3M [i]if the nation was being retained as a member[/i]. NSO said you were free to do what you wanted with him, yet you still pressured them into paying for your lost revenue.
[/quote]

Yes, okay, cool. Now please,

[img]http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/anne-frank-is-not-blind-dwi.gif[/img]

[Ardus]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1289254747' post='2506581']
The individual was not Protected by NSO, you'll find that in the logs.
[/quote]
Good job, you quoted a post from 8 AM this morning and totally ignored 20+ pages of discussion.

If you're not going to take the time to get caught up, don't bother posting.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289254844' post='2506582']
Actually the main issue is that surely RV will try to negotiate before settling so that he can post the logs on the owf.
[/quote]
He could have tried to negotiate down, yes. That doesn't actually change anything though. Or are you arguing that because the terms were eventually accepted, that means it was inherently right for you to demand that sum?

[quote name='King Puffington' timestamp='1289254898' post='2506583']
Yes, okay, cool. Now please,

[img]http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/anne-frank-is-not-blind-dwi.gif[/img]
[/quote]
Never. I'm afraid my conception of honour requires that we duel with banjos at dawn.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289255031' post='2506587']
Good job, you quoted a post from 8 AM this morning and totally ignored 20+ pages of discussion.

If you're not going to take the time to get caught up, don't bother posting.
[/quote]

My bad, so has your position changed after 20 pages of discussion? Is it that the nation was indeed not protected by NSO for all intents and purposes?

Also, consider reading the OP before telling others when to post or not.

Edited November 8, 2010 by shahenshah

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1289250139' post='2506502']
I would say this was more a case of extortionation or extortionating.

[font="Franklin Gothic Medium"][b]NSO, you've been extortionated.[/b][/font]
[/quote]
Schatt, open your eyes. Hell, all of you open your eyes. MK is itching for a war.

They demanded these reps expecting NSO to tell them to $%&@ off. NSO caved and paid up apparently.

This potential CB is the same !@#$ MK wanted to pull on the Legion but that plan was exposed 2 weeks before Halloween so they had to shelve it until now. They can't go after the Legion again as it would be obvious what they are doing so they pick on another alliance they have no respect for. This time it worked.

Franky, I don't give a damn what anyone says about my theory because its not a theory. It's fact. MK wants a war and will continue to pull this !@#$ on alliances until they get a war. I think it's great that they are finally growing a pair and using their power. But eventually it will catch up to them. Tech sellers are hard to come by so having tech flowing in through reps is all MK knows how to do now. They are going to pursue wars, put alliances under terms, and gain technological superiority. Hope you all aren't so damn blind as to not see this.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289255482' post='2506591']
That doesn't actually change anything though. Or are you arguing that because the terms were eventually accepted, that means it was inherently right for you to demand that sum?

[/quote]

Im arguing that if the terms were so outrageous, RV had every reason to negotiate down, he did not. That says something.

[Ashok]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' timestamp='1289254746' post='2506580']
Yes, we would very likely pay the GOONS to help them with the damage suffered. [b]You wouldn't see us claim that the guy isn't a member, or wasn't a member, or was a ghost, or was a masked ghost, or finally that our former Emperor has no idea what he's talking about, and the same goes for two of our highest ranked government officials, etc.[/b]
In this particular situation, giving the boot to a guy with 130 levels of infrastructure was the easiest solution and, quite frankly, a way to avoid facing responsabilitiy (as a collectivity) by abandoning one individual.

We didn't feel like it was a good solution and refused it. They could have bargained on what we asked, they didn't. Instead, we had to hear about RV's principles and now see him make a fuss about it.

Which is amusing, really, because it's almost as if they willingly accepted it only because they knew it was high enough for them to play the outrage card. They could have lowered it, they could have negotiated. They didn't. That's all there is to it.
[/quote]

The bolded makes me laugh Yev considering that Lintwad told you his word was not what you needed, told you who to talked to which was myself and Kevin, which you did and did not get a satisfactory answer as you so kindly put here or as Epiphanus put last night "I don't care about your rules." Which is exactly what we are saying you weren't happy with the solution that is the easiest since he isn't a member and chose to use your power to get what you wanted. You say now you were willing to negotiate but logs show otherwise as to what you were willing to do please don't try pulling anyone's leg here. It isn't going to work.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Ashok' timestamp='1289255683' post='2506598']
You say now you were willing to negotiate but logs show otherwise as to what you were willing to do please don't try pulling anyone's leg here. It isn't going to work.
[/quote]

Oh I'd love to see where.

[Ardus]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1289255513' post='2506592']
My bad, so has your position changed after 20 pages of discussion? Is it that the nation was indeed not protected by NSO for all intents and purposes?
[/quote]
Fill your head--read the thread.

[Banksy]

[quote name='2burnt2eat' timestamp='1289254362' post='2506574']
I see your loophole. You have no honor to defend. I see through your threats.
[/quote]
Changing the spelling of 'honour' will not let you escape our wrath, sorry.

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289254560' post='2506576']
No.

The logs indicate that part of the grievance was also the loss of funds during a back collection.

I repeat/rephrase...

If an MK nation canceled trades without notice and ruined 5 other nations back collections would MK pay $3mil/50tech in reparations to those nations?

[u][b]EDIT:[/b][/u] Lebubu, you prolly know where I'm going with this? The exact same thing happened this weekend when an MKer without notice canceled trades on nations that I organized a trade circle for. He stated he is not allowed off aqua and did not allow 2-3 days courtesy cancelation for me to find a replacement. He joined the trade circle got his collection and left.
[/quote]
The money demanded was for the loss of the 3m we paid him. There are logs other than these.

[shahenshah]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289255800' post='2506601']
Fill your head--read the thread.
[/quote]

Might have to do just that to counter the affects of reading your posts.

Edited November 8, 2010 by shahenshah