Backroom Extortion is Back

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289272610' post='2507110']
[color="#0000FF"]I know you hate the NPO and Valhalla, and though this isn't about either of them, people do change. They experienced life and the top, and now they see what it's like to be at the bottom. There is no hypocrisy anywhere. Just a new perspective on their part. If they get back on top and act like they did in the past, then you might have a case for hypocrisy, but to be honest, the only fellows displaying any sort of hypocrisy or inconsistency here is MK and its supporters.[/color]
[/quote]

Or else they haven't changed, but have adopted a moralist stance in order to try and hurt our PR, which seems much more likely to me. If they were consistent, of course, they'd have nothing with which to criticise MK.

I mean, this entire thread is an attempt to hurt MK's PR.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289272771' post='2507118']
Maybe, just maybe, you guys should grow up, get over yourselves, and actually attempt some diplomacy rather than being intentionally difficult to work with in any discussion. Every single diplomatic conflict NSO has been involved in has been a result of your own childlike desires to somehow 'stick it to those new hegemonists'. The funny thing is, the only damage that has been dealt because of those tactics is to your own alliance.
[/quote]
How unexpected, that we play hardball in wartime negotiations when we're presented with options that we find unsavory.

And intentionally difficult to work with in any situation? Now you're just lying. I mean, just because we dont waste our time being cordial with you when you're being my idols to us, doesn't mean we're the same way to anyone else thats willing to give us the time of day.

How ignorant of you, to base things only on your own limited perspective.

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289272771' post='2507118']


what
[/quote]
Hey I was responding to what you were saying, you tell me.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Chron

[Denial]

[quote name='Bavaricar' timestamp='1289272856' post='2507122']
Straw. Man. From over here, it seems rather that the MK would prefer extracting cash and tech from less favorably positioned alliances over rolling them (or in this case having them rolled by smaller allies). Far more profitable and less "evil," subjectively speaking of course. <rolleyes>
[/quote]
Right, it's a straw man. That's why your post proved my point that there is a clear difference between seeking compensation on the one hand, and wishing to see an alliance rolled and acting upon that wish on the other.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Denial

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289269157' post='2506972']
"Everyone" being the #stratego crowd, some Polars, and Tyga. That said, numbers don't make right and wrong. We were right when the numbers were stacked against us before Karma. We're right now when we're "on top of the world". We won't bend or change because Rebel Virginia and the NSO decided they wanted a PR stunt more than a good faith resolution to a simple matter.
[/quote]

WC looks around. Not entirely true. I've seen many of the same people being critical of NSO in other situations. I'm certainly NOT in that crowd.

[Letum]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289271823' post='2507083']
This is a complete falsification. Firstly, you make the erroneous assumption that we would have immediately resorted to military action had the initial demands not been met.This has been refuted throughout the topic, where Kingdom officials have stated they entered the negotiation with the intention for there to be some back and forth regarding the final figure. You know, kind of the very definition of the word negotiation.
[/quote]

This is a false way of trying to sideline the issue. The possibility of a leeway does not remove the fact that intimidation was present as a tool within the discussion. That sort of logic would simply go back to the "you accepted it so it's alright" kind of thinking, which is the basis of bullying. The fact is that MK asked for something that is widely vilified as unreasonable, and were able to get it because of that intimidation. Holding a position of "we could have gone down to a more reasonable level" does not change the very simple fact that you employed intimidation tactics.


[quote]Secondly, you ignore the fact that our chances of fulfilling our goals through negotiation are improved simply by the perception of superior military and diplomatic skill; it is not necessary for us to immediately resort to actual warfare. [/quote]

This is much more than just a "perception" of you guys having a good army. It is because you are expected to [b]make use[/b] of the brute force of all your allies if you do not meet your goals. This is why the attempts to sideline this issue by saying "we have an army, so what" are mere spin. It is not about merely [b]possessing power[/b], but the willingness to [b]use that power[/b] that causes this to be an intimidation tactic. And the presence of some leeway does not remove the fact that said desire existed.

Unless of course MK sees no distinction between merely having power and using it to cow others into furthering MK's goals, which is the mentality several of its member's posts give out.

I also like how you try to sneak in "diplomatic" in there. Force is indeed the crudest and most ruthless form of diplomacy.

[quote]
As has been stated numerous times, there was a clear opportunity for the New Sith Order to have a genuine, good faith discussion with our government regarding the nature of the final resolution.
[/quote]

Discussions with obscene demands and intimidation may be genuine, but they do not fulfil the requirements of good faith. These discussions were also a long way from being fair or on equal terms. Your repeated attempts to discredit arguments by questioning motivations will never manage to cloud that.

[Denial]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1289272952' post='2507127']
How unexpected, that we play hardball in wartime negotiations when we're presented with options that we find unsavory.[/quote]
How's that working out for you?

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1289272952' post='2507127']
Hey I was responding to what you were saying, you tell me.
[/quote]
No, really. What you said makes absolutely no sense.

[Joseph Black]

This is proving to be quit entertaining and I had not wanted to interject, but I feel that the Mushroom Kingdom is getting the unfair raw end of the stick. There is no question as to whether there is a strength difference between the NSO and MK, however to presume that is a bad thing is just ridiculous. What is the point of being the larger entity or having power at all if not to be used in times like these? No, in no way is this extortion; MK never even implied military action; it was the NSO who drew the conclusion that military action was on the table. [Quote] <Yevgeni> Your subordinates didn't inform you of our demands, did they?
<Rebel_Virginia> Yes, you want him to pay 3 mil and 50 tech to each of those he wronged, no? [/quote] At this point it was on NSO to decide what they would do. RV could have easily offered a different price. That did not happen, instead he agreed to the price. It wasn’t until after he had agreed to the price that he called it extortion.

In this case it was NSO’s job to post an objection to the price. That wasn’t the case; the case became about the act its self. NSO was responsible for the member, much the same as any other alliance. NSO agreed to pay the price requested by MK, if RV believed it was the price that was the problem, he could have easily made the issue about the price and offered a lower price. The issue isn’t extortion as NSO would have you believe, but NSO’s inability to negotiate.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Muddog

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289270387' post='2507024']
Yes, your actions (posting this thread and contradictory statements) ensured it didn't.


Well, yes, that is how CN negotiations generally go. I remember (and I know Yev does) the BiPolar negotiations. You've been around for a while and I assume you have some knowledge of negotiating. I can't think of a single scenario where the aggrieved party has demanded more than they're going to get.
[/quote]

There shouldn't have been any 'negotiating' to begin with. It was a new player who even the person who masked him probably had no clue was. They gave him the boot and MK still demanded compensation.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1289272890' post='2507125']
Or else they haven't changed, but have adopted a moralist stance in order to try and hurt our PR, which seems much more likely to me. If they were consistent, of course, they'd have nothing with which to criticise MK.

I mean, this entire thread is an attempt to hurt MK's PR.
[/quote]
Actually, we didn't created this thread nor were we involved in the incident it covers. Though as anybody else, we can voice our opinions about it. Would be better if we got back more on topic.

Also, I didnt know you are MK, your AA says ODN.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Branimir

[Dragon]

Well i have done alot of trade circles with members from all alliances. I have payed out alot of money to members to get the harbor and have them quit after i gave them the 3 mil. MK members along with NPO and TOP and many others have done this. I just pushed it off and moved on. Now had i known MK had these rules in place i would never have to buy tech . Good show MK and i hope your members do that again some day soon so i can see if you pay the reps.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1289273193' post='2507136']
Actually, we didn't created this thread nor were we involved in the incident it covers. Though as anybody else, we can voice our opinions about it. Also, would be better if we got back more on topic.
[/quote]

It's perfectly on topic..... as I just said in the post you just quoted, this entire thread is an attempt to hurt MK's PR, which has quite clearly been your side's agenda for the last year and a half.

[TehChron]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289273093' post='2507133']
How's that working out for you?
[/quote]We seem fine with it. But hey if you dont like it you're free to do something about it.
[quote]
No, really. What you said makes absolutely no sense.
[/quote]
I know. Now just apply a bit more critical thinking and you should be able to figure it out.

I hear you MKers dont need your hands held for the difficult stuff, right? This shouldn't be a problem.

[tamerlane]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1289272890' post='2507125']

I mean, this entire thread is an attempt to hurt MK's PR.
[/quote]

Thats... THats just ignorant... This thread is an attempt to shed light on CNs darkest alliances.

[Axolotlia]

[quote name='Dragon' timestamp='1289273228' post='2507137']
Good show MK and i hope your members do that again some day soon so i can see if you pay the reps.
[/quote]

I too look forward to this day.

[heggo]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1289272890' post='2507125']
Or else they haven't changed, but have adopted a moralist stance in order to try and hurt our PR, which seems much more likely to me. If they were consistent, of course, they'd have nothing with which to criticise MK.

I mean, this entire thread is an attempt to hurt MK's PR.
[/quote]
A clever man could conclude my answer to accusations of moralism from this post right here: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=94443&view=findpost&p=2506527

Anyway, I'm still unconvinced that MK actually really wanted to request 15m/250t in return for the smaller sum the gentleman ghosting our AA took, but I'd like to assure you all that the NSO bureaucracy is busy slaving away at this question, among many others of life, the universe, and aid flow logistics.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1289273292' post='2507139']It's perfectly on topic..... as I just said in the post you just quoted, this entire thread is an attempt to hurt MK's PR, which has quite clearly been your side's agenda for the last year and a half.[/quote]
Well, I am more afraid this line of arguing will end up again with bickering over 2+ years old events, while side shoving what we have here and now.

You can view this as a "PR attack". Certainly it is, against extortion.

[chefjoe]

Why are you people suprised by this?

Seriously.....why?


Oh thats right....MK was one of the most vocal about morality and whatnot during the 'karma' war....

Ok....continue being suprised by their aggressive actions, its totaly OK.....I understand. They are different from the old hegemony? They wanted you to think that. They fed you the right diet for such inane thoughts to sprout...


[i][b][u]IF[/u] you are a mushroom[/b][/i]

Edited November 9, 2010 by chefjoe

[Bavaricar]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289273007' post='2507128']
Right, it's a straw man. That's why your post proved my point that there is a clear difference between seeking compensation on the one hand, and wishing to see an alliance rolled and acting upon that wish on the other.
[/quote]

For what it's worth, your attempt to twist the point of my observation into whatever it is you are trying to twist it into made no sense.

[Denial]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1289273053' post='2507131']
This is a false way of trying to sideline the issue. The possibility of a leeway does not remove the fact that intimidation was present as a tool within the discussion. That sort of logic would simply go back to the "you accepted it so it's alright" kind of thinking, which is the basis of bullying. The fact is that MK asked for something that is widely vilified as unreasonable, and were able to get it because of that intimidation. Holding a position of "we could have gone down to a more reasonable level" does not change the very simple fact that you employed intimidation tactics.[/quote]
Again, what constitutes reasonable and unreasonable is subjective. Secondly, we cannot remove the fact that we are superior to NSO in every measure from the negotiations. As Ardus and I have both previously asked, what would you have us do? Decommission our military, reduce our economic efficiency, remove our treaties and friendships, and dumb ourselves down so that the Kingdom and NSO negotiated on an entirely even footing?

As for trying to 'sideline the issue', I'll remind you that the beginning of this discussion was not regarding whether or not our military supremacy influenced our capacity to pursue our desires in the negotiation. You will find that I stated that in my very first posts. What the debate has been about is whether we were looking for any excuse to roll NSO. That has been refuted. Subsequently, you have been furrowing your brow in a lame attempt to understand the situation at hand, and throwing out accusations that have very little to do with the situation nor any basis in reality.


[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1289273053' post='2507131']
This is much more than just a "perception" of you guys having a good army. It is because you are expected to [b]make use[/b] of the brute force of all your allies if you do not meet your goals. This is why the attempts to sideline this issue by saying "we have an army, so what" are mere spin. It is not about merely [b]possessing power[/b], but the willingness to [b]use that power[/b] that causes this to be an intimidation tactic. And the presence of some leeway does not remove the fact that said desire existed.[/quote]
Time and time again this ridiculous argument has been refuted. The very officials that took part in this negotiation have stated, incontrovertibly, that there was room for the New Sith Order to negotiation. They chose not to negotiate; rather, they saw an opportunity to play the victim, at the detriment of their own alliance, in order to maybe score a few PR points. You are operating under the same misguided assumption that Tygaland was, reading straight out of Alterego's copy of Henny Penny's Guide to International Politics. There is a very clear difference between possessing the capacity to use military force, and actually acting on that capacity. Merely having a top-notch military does not mean that an alliance will use said military at the drop of a hat.

Again, I'll reiterate a point I made earlier. It is quite clear that your perception of what constitutes negotiation is still tainted by the precedents your own alliance set. The Kingdom does not involve itself in Pacifican 'negotiation' where an ultimatum is given at the beginning and there is no room for discussion. As has been stated numerous times, there was a clear opportunity for the New Sith Order to have a genuine, good faith discussion with our government regarding the nature of the final resolution. That opportunity was alive and kicking up until the point where it became clear that RV was more interested in playing the victim to score a few PR points than actually negotiating in the best interests of his own alliance.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1289273053' post='2507131']
Discussions with obscene demands and intimidation may be genuine, but they do not fulfil the requirements of good faith. These discussions were also a long way from being fair or on equal terms. Your repeated attempts to discredit arguments by questioning motivations will never manage to cloud that.
[/quote]
It is great to see you admit that the negotiation was genuine. It is also pleasing to see you acknowledge that the negotiations were not adhering to the principle of good faith; it is difficult to meet that criterion when one party refuses to negotiate because they have ulterior motives regarding gaining some PR points by playing the 'horribly-transgressed' victim. Again, how exactly would you suggest a larger alliance overcome this problem of negotiating on fair and equal terms when dealing with a smaller alliance? It is something that Pacifica has never seemed to master in the past - what with the ultimatums and [i]actual concrete evidence of martial means being used[/i] if demands were not met - but I am interested to see if you have come up with any solutions during your time outside of the dominant group of alliances.

[Axolotlia]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1289273816' post='2507155']
Why are you people suprised by this?

Seriously.....why?


Oh thats right....MK was one of the most vocal about morality and whatnot during the 'karma' war....

Ok....continue being suprised by their aggressive actions, its totaly OK.....I understand. They are different from the old hegemony? They wanted you to think that. They fed you the right diet for such inane thoughts to sprout...


[i][b][u]IF[/u] you are a mushroom[/b][/i]
[/quote]


They feeding people shrooms this whole time?

[Bavaricar]

Oh and yeah, one more pet peeve. "Good faith" negotiations don't start with a high number. They start with "good faith" numbers. That is all. Have a nice day.

[Denial]

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1289273398' post='2507142']
We seem fine with it. But hey if you dont like it you're free to do something about it.[/quote]
If you're fine with it, why all the complaining? Why not get down from the cross? I believe that's mhawk's territory, anyway.

[quote name='Chron' timestamp='1289273398' post='2507142']
I know. Now just apply a bit more critical thinking and you should be able to figure it out.

I hear you MKers dont need your hands held for the difficult stuff, right? This shouldn't be a problem.
[/quote]
I'll let you in on a secret. Posting a whole load of incomprohensible drivel that no one understands does not make you clever or gifted, it just makes you an idiot.

[King Death II]

If you guys dont like MK or what they did, why not start a war? We are anyways overdue for a big one by a few months.... Bickering over the forums does nothing

[Denial]

[quote name='chefjoe' timestamp='1289273816' post='2507155']
Why are you people suprised by this?

Seriously.....why?


Oh thats right....MK was one of the most vocal about morality and whatnot during the 'karma' war....

Ok....continue being suprised by their aggressive actions, its totaly OK.....I understand. They are different from the old hegemony? They wanted you to think that. They fed you the right diet for such inane thoughts to sprout...


[i][b][u]IF[/u] you are a mushroom[/b][/i]
[/quote]
Okay, for the moment, let's just pretend that the claim that we've ~become the monster~ and we're just as bad as you guys when you were in power isn't a blatant falsehood. If it's correct, why should anyone care when the alternative to us is a reversion back to the old hegemony, which is apparently just the same? What's the impetus for change?

Just curious on how anyone still thinks claiming 'you're the same as us!' is a good strategy.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='King Death II' timestamp='1289274257' post='2507169']
If you guys dont like MK or what they did, why not start a war? We are anyways overdue for a big one by a few months.... Bickering over the forums does nothing
[/quote]

It entertains the peanut gallery, it also allows the pillars of intellect to come out and shine, its like a red carpet affair all the regulars are here in thier finest.

I find it very interesting though that you would suggest war, why would the NSO dictate the situation to play into MK stregnth, waging war? They are in their element, they excel at this type of discourse and its working for them this time, thats hardly "nothing".