An Announcement from The Conclave

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1289101676' post='2504649']
I don't see why so many people want to see ConC go into this war on an [b]optional[/b] clause within a [b]PIAT[/b], do they want to see an alliance smashed over the incompetence of the AcTi leadership? No alliance in their right mind would fight in a war when the instigator couldn't even organise a blitz.

To anyone who is so keen on ConC defending AcTi, why don't you do something about it instead? You go defend AcTi.
[/quote]

Those wanting Conclave to fight, do so for the sole hope of drawing in Argent and then most likely drawing in Polaris. they do not defend AcTi because none of them have the balls to do so and are mostly just talking out their asses hoping to get this small war turned into a global one.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

Tech Deals and Loans???!!! No aid? What rate of interest on the loans?

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Quiziotle' timestamp='1289096294' post='2504570']
None of this makes it honorable for the Conclave to stand idly by as their allies are crushed.
[/quote]
[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1289098892' post='2504609']
Coward Coalition 2

I have named these two alliances.
[/quote]
[quote name='The MVP' timestamp='1289099255' post='2504612']
It's great that you all so generously offer them tech deals after the war in which they may have their entire strength decimated. A stranger, like one in a tech selling/buying alliance, would likely do the same.

Such good friends.
[/quote]
[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1289099629' post='2504619']
Wow you guys really are hero's here...bravo... i commend your sacrifices they show the true meaning of ally's in the modern world
[/quote]
Your guys' attempts at trying to expand the war by goading The Conclave truly are pathetic.

They're ODP allies, not MADP allies. You can't call them bad allies since they are following their ODP to the letter [i]and[/i] spirit of the treaty. You don't sign an ODP with the expectation that the other is going to save your ass on your aggressive war.

They're ODP friends, not MADP friends. You can't call them bad friends since they are following their friendship to the extent which it exists. It's not an MADP friendship, and so this doesn't hurt their friendship.

[Banksy]

This is really the perfect example of how flawed treaties are. A treaty exists to symbolise that the connection between two alliances is enough that they will fight for each other. A treaty exists as a means each alliance to declare war within their own legal framework (normally a charter) and to signify to potential attackers that there will be consequences if they attack. It's simply convenient to have treaties. However, when you "E-Lawyer" (excuse the term, I find it rather forced) your way out of an ODP by claiming you 'recognise it as an aggressive war' then the treaty is functionless. An proper ally wont care about who declares on who first in a situation such as this, they will defend you (unless you have asked them to stand aside).

If people are happy to just sign these meaningless treaties in a "shotgun" manner then it is leading to needless stagnation as the treaty-web seems far more interlinked than it really is.

[Aeternos Astramora]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289111738' post='2504791']
This is really the perfect example of how flawed treaties are. A treaty exists to symbolise that the connection between two alliances is enough that they will fight for each other. A treaty exists as a means each alliance to declare war within their own legal framework (normally a charter) and to signify to potential attackers that there will be consequences if they attack. It's simply convenient to have treaties. However, when you "E-Lawyer" (excuse the term, I find it rather forced) your way out of an ODP by claiming you 'recognise it as an aggressive war' then the treaty is functionless. [/quote]
How is following the letter of the treaty "e-lawyering"? Batallion didn't try diplomacy and just declared war. Their conduct was aggressive.

[quote]An proper ally wont care about who declares on who first in a situation such as this, they will defend you (unless you have asked them to stand aside). [/quote]
No, you're not describing a "proper ally". You're describing "a proper MADP ally". They are not at that level of friendship, so it's incredibly stupid to claim that they aren't a proper ally when they are acting like a perfect ODP ally, not defending the aggressive actions of AcTi, but willing to help out afterward.

[quote]If people are happy to just sign these meaningless treaties in a "shotgun" manner then it is leading to needless stagnation as the treaty-web seems far more interlinked than it really is.[/quote]
You do realize that the Conclave only has two treaties, a protectorate with Argent, a PIAT with the other Argent protectorate, and PIAT with an ODP clause with AcTi. This little paragraph is hardly relevant.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Aeternos Astramora

[Synesi]

To the question about the loans, are aim is to help AcTi rebuild. We have not discussed an interest rate with AcTi yet, such things will be decided when the war has come to it's conclusion. But I don't see the interest rate being very high

Edited November 7, 2010 by Synesi

[Banksy]

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' timestamp='1289112099' post='2504798']
How is following the letter of the treaty "e-lawyering"? Batallion didn't try diplomacy and just declared war. Their conduct was aggressive.[/quote]
Yes, if you ignore the context, i'm sure you'd be correct. The turtle people had blocked attack slots and James Maximus's personal grudge with Battalion motivated his diplomatic stonewall. It's quite easy to see that this could be constructed as a defensive war. Hence why this alliance has "E-Lawyered" (interpreted) its way out of this situation, by declaring it an offensive act and removing their defensive obligations under the treaty. If a treaty exists to represent a friendship, then seeing your friends get rolled while you offer a "loan" at the end of the war seems heartless.

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' timestamp='1289112099' post='2504798']
No, you're not describing a "proper ally". You're describing "a proper MADP ally". They are not at that level of friendship, so it's incredibly stupid to claim that they aren't a proper ally when they are acting like a perfect ODP ally, not defending the aggressive actions of AcTi, but willing to help out afterward.[/quote]
Well, I am glad i'm not allied to Argent, considering it appears that you only find it acceptable to defend your friends if 'bound' to by the letters of a treaty.

[quote name='Aeternos Astramora' timestamp='1289112099' post='2504798']
You do realize that the Conclave only has two treaties, a protectorate with Argent, a PIAT with the other Argent protectorate, and PIAT with an ODP clause with AcTi. This little paragraph is hardly relevant.[/quote]
If you read my reply properly you would have noticed that I was speaking in general terms. But if Conclave is unwilling to defend an ally then it shouldn't sign a ODP, and then have to construct an interpretation to remove their defensive obligations.

[shahenshah]

Alliances in the past have gotten away with suspending MDPs give these guys a break for keeping ODP what it is. If it was more than that, then the treaty would reflect it, it doesnt, so yea.

If AcTi was a good freind, they'd keep Conclave in the loop completely, apparently their friendship isn't at the level where AcTi would share complete information with Conclave. Which again reflects on the level of relationship, that is clearly not at an MDP level from AcTi's side.

Whether the war was offensive OR defensive, I still dont see how has Conclave e-lawyered out of an ODP? Infact, the e-lawyers are busy trying to spin ODP as MDP.


[quote name='Synesi' timestamp='1289083405' post='2504342']
AcTi leadership informed us of their plans for war, though specifics were not given as to whom they would be attacking, the information contained in this announcement was told to Battalion before the DoW was posted.
[/quote]

So they didnt share complete intelligence with you? If anyone is in violation of the treaty, it is AcTi.

[quote]
Article II - Intelligence

If either signatory is AFC (away from controller) during the match and a nuke is about to drop, the other signatory will spam the away signatory with text and/or voice messages until both signatories meet safely back in the lobby.
If either signatory hears that someone about to javelin glitch on the others' position, they are entitled to inform the other signatory with loud, semi-human noises.
[/quote]

The real question here is why Conclave has not cancelled instead of supporting "freinds" who violated the treaty and the spirit of it, If AcTi cant maintain an ODP, how do you expect to pursue further relations?

Edited November 7, 2010 by shahenshah

[deathman1212]

[quote][b]Mutual Aggression and Defense Pacts[/b] (often referred to as MADPs or MDAPs) are a type of interalliance treaty wherein the signatory alliances agree to [b]defend each other from attack by other alliances and to support each other in wars of aggression[/b]. -- CN Wiki, 7/11/10 [/quote]

[quote][b]Optional Defense Pacts[/b] (often referred to as ODP's) are a type of interalliance treaty wherein the signatory alliances may [b]optionally defend each other if attacked, though such action is not required as it would be for a MDP[/b]. In practice, ODP's often function as ToA's. -- CN Wiki, 7/11/10[/quote]

Basically, AcTi would [b]NEED TO BE DECLARED ON FIRST[/b], they were not declared on first because [b]THEY ATTACKED ANOTHER ALLIANCE[/b]. Also, [b]a MDAP is not an ODP[/b]. No matter whatever way it is spun, e-lawyered, insinuated, forcefully shouted across a medium for interalliance communication.

i bolded the parts that you need to look at.

[Haflinger]

Loans?

People still give loans?

Man oh man.

That's so 2007.

[Little Fame Monster]

[quote name='deathman1212' timestamp='1289129361' post='2504954']
Basically, AcTi would [b]NEED TO BE DECLARED ON FIRST[/b], they were not declared on first because [b]THEY ATTACKED ANOTHER ALLIANCE[/b]. Also, [b]a MDAP is not an ODP[/b]. No matter whatever way it is spun, e-lawyered, insinuated, forcefully shouted across a medium for interalliance communication.

i bolded the parts that you need to look at.
[/quote]

You can put that in red, rainbows, Hell, light it up in all the neon lights you can find and people will still bring this point up 2 pages from here.

[Locke]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1289130446' post='2504966']
Loans?

People still give loans?

Man oh man.

That's so 2007.
[/quote]
Yeah, that gave me a giggle too. Staying out of the war is one thing, but loans are just...silly.
I wonder if they'll use middlemen and aid chains.

[MrMuz]

While AcTi has a good reason for war, it was completely suicidal for them to declare in attack. It's just as suicidal for their optional defense friends to attack as well.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='MrMuz' timestamp='1289131785' post='2504977']
While AcTi has a good reason for war, it was completely suicidal for them to declare in attack. It's just as suicidal for their optional defense friends to attack as well.
[/quote]
This ^^^, I don't think it could be summed up any better.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='shahenshah' timestamp='1289122506' post='2504863']
The real question here is why Conclave has not cancelled instead of supporting "freinds" who violated the treaty and the spirit of it, If AcTi cant maintain an ODP, how do you expect to pursue further relations?
[/quote]

If they cancled, they would possibly have gotten more flak as well as it being such a recent treaty.
But I agree, if AcTi can't provide the intellegence, why should ConC provide the defense.

[Teddyyo]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1289149146' post='2505078']
If they cancled, they would possibly have gotten more flak as well as it being such a recent treaty.
But I agree, if AcTi can't provide the intellegence, why should ConC provide the defense.
[/quote]
I would completely agree if AcTi didn't provide intel. But, what's this? They did? Oh.

[DictatatorDan]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289116994' post='2504838']


Well, I am glad i'm not allied to Argent, considering it appears that you only find it acceptable to defend your friends if 'bound' to by the letters of a treaty.
[/quote]
[color="#FF0000"]
Attack my freinds and find out.[/color]

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1289153347' post='2505109']
I would completely agree if AcTi didn't provide intel. But, what's this? They did? Oh.
[/quote]

If you have so much love for AcTi, go running back to them and defend them.

[Teddyyo]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1289153535' post='2505114']
If you have so much love for AcTi, go running back to them and defend them.
[/quote]
I don't 'love AcTi". I'd defend them if I was the leader of an alliance due to the circumstances. I can't 'defend' a 2m NS alliance from what? 7m NS of enemies with a 67k NS nation. It's quite different when you replace a 67k nation with DB4D and ConC.

[trimm]

Heaven forbid we treat an ODP level treaty like an ODP, and not like an MDAP signed in blood and printed on gold. Sheesh, are people so desperate for a global war that we are really going to damn an alliance for not using the OPTIONAL part of an OPTIONAL treaty?

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1289153869' post='2505118']
I don't 'love AcTi". I'd defend them if I was the leader of an alliance due to the circumstances. I can't 'defend' a 2m NS alliance from what? 7m NS of enemies with a 67k NS nation. It's quite different when you replace a 67k nation with DB4D and ConC.
[/quote]

Coward.

[Teddyyo]

[quote name='trimm' timestamp='1289153910' post='2505119']
Heaven forbid we treat an ODP level treaty like an ODP, and not like an MDAP signed in blood and printed on gold. Sheesh, are people so desperate for a global war that we are really going to damn an alliance for not using the OPTIONAL part of an OPTIONAL treaty?
[/quote]
Nope, we're just pointing out that ConC and DB4D are opting-out of the most valid CB in a long time because of their infra.

[Teddyyo]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1289153981' post='2505120']
Coward.
[/quote]
Totally. Because I don't want to waste my nation in a completely frivolous attempt to defend against a bloc 100x my size, compared to ConC and DB4D who are dozens of times larger than I, I'm a coward.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Teddyyo

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1289154279' post='2505123']
Totally. Because I don't want to waste my nation in a completely frivolous attempt to defend against a bloc 100x my size, compared to ConC and DB4D who are dozens of times larger than I, I'm a coward.
[/quote]

It's a waste of time ConC going in wasting their nations, they wouldn't stand a chance, what you are suggesting is that they risk their alliance to save one that is too incompetent to build up support [i]before[/i] going to war. All it would do is damage ConC as well, same with DB4D.

So how is ConC losing their alliance or numerous nations diffrent from you losing your one nation?

[Goldie]

This, my friends, is why you don't treaty yourself with crazy people you aren't friends with or are willing to put your whole alliance behind. Because when they do something crazy, your friendship won't be strong enough to justify you wanting to honor the treaty, but you'll be vilified forever for not honoring the treaty. Basically you put yourself in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position.