Aeternos Astramora Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='lordliam' timestamp='1289085373' post='2504367']"We're going to sit and watch you get beat up. But it's ok because we're going to lend you our band-aids and call the ambulance if you're still alive afterwards." [/quote] Yeah, that's what happens when an alliance declares an aggressive war when the alliance in question only has an ODP with them. [i]That's the point of the ODP![/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEd Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Aeternos Astramora' timestamp='1289088965' post='2504442'] Yeah, that's what happens when an alliance declares an aggressive war when the alliance in question only has an ODP with them. [i]That's the point of the ODP![/i] [/quote] And that's why I don't believe in the ODP Treaty menace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Ilyani Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 tl;dr of this thread: Don't treaty AcTi. It only leads to bad stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEd Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1289089159' post='2504447'] tl;dr of this thread: Don't treaty AcTi. It only leads to bad stuff. [/quote] QFT. It's why TPE said no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janax Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 Now, if people really want this to escalate. Attack The Conclave and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9dj12 Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Bob Ilyani' timestamp='1289089159' post='2504447'] tl;dr of this thread: Don't treaty AcTi. It only leads to bad stuff. [/quote] I can agree to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleRena Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Aeternos Astramora' timestamp='1289088965' post='2504442'] Yeah, that's what happens when an alliance declares an aggressive war when the alliance in question only has an ODP with them. [i]That's the point of the ODP![/i] [/quote] Again, it doesn't stop them from activating the ODP on TIO, TCU and BTA, the AcTi-ConC treaty doesn't have a non-chaining clause and even if it did, all the non-chaining clauses I have seen are for MDPs which make defence optional if it chains. The defense clause doesn't come into play on the TKTB attack since AcTi attacked first but for the others, it would. But yes, there's no reason for them to go into this war, I don't think they should, AcTi don't have the support to make it work anyway, only having one ally wasn't a good move to take military action. [quote name='janax' timestamp='1289089728' post='2504458'] Now, if people really want this to escalate. Attack The Conclave and see what happens. [/quote] I don't want to I like The Conclave, which is one reason why I support their decision not to go into this war. Edited November 7, 2010 by LittleRena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='janax' timestamp='1289089728' post='2504458'] Now, if people really want this to escalate. Attack The Conclave and see what happens. [/quote] Then it's not even the same war. Think things through before you say them in the future, and you won't embarrass yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='janax' timestamp='1289089728' post='2504458'] Now, if people really want this to escalate. Attack The Conclave and see what happens. [/quote] Who said anything about attacking The Conclave? Why would anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeternos Astramora Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 (edited) [quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1289090432' post='2504471']Again, it doesn't stop them from activating the ODP on TIO, TCU and BTA, the AcTi-ConC treaty doesn't have a non-chaining clause and even if it did, all the non-chaining clauses I have seen are for MDPs which make defence optional if it chains. The defense clause doesn't come into play on the TKTB attack since AcTi attacked first but for the others, it would.[/quote] It makes the optionality optional, which lessens any type of obligation, legal or moral, significantly. [quote]But yes, there's no reason for them to go into this war, I don't think they should, AcTi don't have the support to make it work anyway, only having one ally wasn't a good move to take military action.[/quote] I agree. [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1289090694' post='2504479']Then it's not even the same war. Think things through before you say them in the future, and you won't embarrass yourself.[/quote] Clearly, you do not remember the last major war, do you? In other news, "optionality" is apparently a word. Edited November 7, 2010 by Aeternos Astramora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janax Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1289090694' post='2504479'] Then it's not even the same war. Think things through before you say them in the future, and you won't embarrass yourself. [/quote] It would be as much the same war as if The Conclave used an ODP to take part in an Offensive war. Apparently when they choose not to use said OPTIONAL DEFENSE to help out an AGGRESSIVE war, they are terrible people. I guess technically, it would be slightly better of someone to use non-existing clauses of a existing treaty to get involved than it would be to attack uninvolved parties just to escalate the war. I find the distinction quite small however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Controversy Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='janax' timestamp='1289091119' post='2504488'] It would be as much the same war as if The Conclave used an ODP to take part in an Offensive war. Apparently when they choose not to use said OPTIONAL DEFENSE to help out an AGGRESSIVE war, they are terrible people. I guess technically, it would be slightly better of someone to use non-existing clauses of a existing treaty to get involved than it would be to attack uninvolved parties just to escalate the war. I find the distinction quite small however. [/quote] A fine distinction, but one just the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diomede Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1289091215' post='2504492'] A fine distinction, but one just the same. [/quote] A distiction made by a sane mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1289090432' post='2504471'] Again, it doesn't stop them from activating the ODP on TIO, TCU and BTA, the AcTi-ConC treaty doesn't have a non-chaining clause and even if it did, all the non-chaining clauses I have seen are for MDPs which make defence optional if it chains. The defense clause doesn't come into play on the TKTB attack since AcTi attacked first but for the others, it would. But yes, there's no reason for them to go into this war, I don't think they should, AcTi don't have the support to make it work anyway, only having one ally wasn't a good move to take military action. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]No, ODP's dont work that way. The operative phrase is "Optional". No non-chaining clauses are needed because it is "Optional". [/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 Watch and learn ex-DB4D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleRena Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1289092241' post='2504506'] [color="#FF0000"]No, ODP's dont work that way. The operative phrase is "Optional". No non-chaining clauses are needed because it is "Optional". [/color] [/quote] That was the point I was trying to make, just not explained very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogenes Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Scorponok' timestamp='1289077460' post='2504234'] They see the reasoning on why Batallion is wrong. They are only Optional obligated to help. But staying out of this, the war will hopefully end soon. I mean they could have just cancelled if they didn't care. [/quote] None of this makes it honorable for the Conclave to stand idly by as their allies are crushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Quiziotle' timestamp='1289096294' post='2504570'] None of this makes it honorable for the Conclave to stand idly by as their allies are crushed. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]Your premise that Conclave is obligated in anyway to defend their ally for starting an offensive war is false on all accounts. The fact that this line of thought is constantly repeated despite many dissertations on the nature of Optional Defense clauses that are to the contrary speaks volumes of how the peanut gallery hungers for war. If you really want to go to war, find something worth fighting about. ODP's and Techraiding just doesn't cut it.[/color] Edited November 7, 2010 by DictatatorDan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddyyo Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 Coward Coalition 2 I have named these two alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The MVP Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 It's great that you all so generously offer them tech deals after the war in which they may have their entire strength decimated. A stranger, like one in a tech selling/buying alliance, would likely do the same. Such good friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Wally Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='James Spanier' timestamp='1289075711' post='2504199'] [center][img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100318233723/cybernations/images/thumb/c/ce/TheConclaveFlag.png/250px-TheConclaveFlag.png[/img][/center] As all of you know by now, AcTi has recently entered a state of war. We, The Conclave, have a diplomatic relationship with AcTi, and therefore we feel it necessary to clarify certain issues. First and foremost, The Conclave will not go to war to support AcTi, nor will we support this war financially. Yes, we have a treaty with an optional defense clause. However, we consider this war to be aggressive, and are therefore under no obligation to join it. AcTi's leadership was informed of this prior to their DoW. We are, however, saddened by this turn of events. The Conclave fairly recently started a new and potentially prosperous relationship with AcTi. While we understand why AcTi has declared war, we regret that they were unable to foresee the consequences of their attack and did not decide to pursue diplomacy further. Since there is a decent chance that the inclined planes that are the members of AcTi have been pretty much wrapped helically around an axis (read: screwed), we will still do our part as friends. After the war is officially over, should AcTi exist as a functional body, we will help their nations rebuild to the best of our ability through tech deals and loans. Synesi, Grand Master of ConC James Spanier, Auxiliary Grand Master of ConC Htmlmaster, Master Provost of ConC [/quote] Wow you guys really are hero's here...bravo... i commend your sacrifices they show the true meaning of ally's in the modern world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Fame Monster Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Teddyyo' timestamp='1289098892' post='2504609'] Coward Coalition 2 I have named these two alliances. [/quote] Sure they're cowards for not wanting to activate an OPTIONAL defense clause with allies who wouldn't even bother to tell them who they were planning to go to war with. AcTi, definitely a paragon of an ally. The fact that The Conclave even wants anything to do with them is amazing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DictatatorDan Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Sentinal' timestamp='1289100764' post='2504636'] Sure they're cowards for not wanting to activate an OPTIONAL defense clause with allies who wouldn't even bother to tell them who they were planning to go to war with. AcTi, definitely a paragon of an ally. The fact that The Conclave even wants anything to do with them is amazing to me. [/quote] [color="#FF0000"]Also, not engaging in an OFFENSIVE war because of an optional defense treaty is really on par with NPO's long time allies simultaneously dropping their MADP treaties in the face of imminent war.[/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleRena Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 I don't see why so many people want to see ConC go into this war on an [b]optional[/b] clause within a [b]PIAT[/b], do they want to see an alliance smashed over the incompetence of the AcTi leadership? No alliance in their right mind would fight in a war when the instigator couldn't even organise a blitz. To anyone who is so keen on ConC defending AcTi, why don't you do something about it instead? You go defend AcTi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diomede Posted November 7, 2010 Report Share Posted November 7, 2010 [quote name='Sentinal' timestamp='1289100764' post='2504636']The fact that The Conclave even wants anything to do with them is amazing to me.[/quote] I didn't even know who AcTi were until ConC approached us about a treaty. I wish I did. ODPs are annoying. For some reason they're considered a very weak military treaty when really they're the modern day NAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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