Red Raiding Safari

[the masheen]

I'm sure there will be more organized raiding of all the colors of the rainbow. It's kind of silly to think that this is some huge conspiracy attempt to bring down the red sphere and get under your skin. I hardly feel that any of these alliances would care if a massive tech raid on the black or aqua spheres were conducted. I think this may be an over-reaction.

or maybe the over-reaction itself is a conspiracy to get under the tech raiders skins

Edited July 20, 2010 by the masheen

[savethecheerleader]

I honestly preferred when the dominant alliances of the world were those that imposed viceroys and destroyed alliances. That was interesting at very least. Nowadays dominant alliances simply sit back and enable this pack of retards to do whatever they want. Its not amusing, its not interest, its just annoying.

Edited July 20, 2010 by savethecheerleader

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='20 July 2010 - 01:35 AM' timestamp='1279604139' post='2380074']
So I will not change \m/'s position on these series of events: \m/ nations will not be prohibited from raiding the Red team.
[/quote]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='20 July 2010 - 01:49 AM' timestamp='1279604941' post='2380098']
Perhaps the wording was a little off but what I said was you should probably talk to us about it (privately, but you've made your choice) but I gave no guarantee that we'd change our stance.
[/quote]
I'd like to know which it is: Talk to a reasonable guy about his course of action, or the decision has been made and there's no discussing it.

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='20 July 2010 - 01:53 AM' timestamp='1279605170' post='2380104']
Schatt you are misrepresenting what I told you and you know it. I stated I did not want any [i]alliance[/i] to be rolled. I specifically stated that I wanted to limit raiding to unaligneds and tiny unprotected alliances and not for things like the attack on BDC or BAPS. In addition, I did not say this was to get under your skin. I explained our reasons for opposing team unaligned protection. In fact the only reason I came to CoJ at all was to mitigate the inevitable backlash from an alliance I rather like. I most assuredly did not do this to get under your skin. The other alliances may have, but I did not.
[/quote]
A mass attack on Red in response to one of GOONS's members being asked to stop a raid on a Red nation is nothing but a move to be as annoying as possible to NPO and it's Red partners. If there's anything I hate about this it's the argument I knew would come the minute I saw your topic title. Attacks on ignorant and uninvolved nations to make a point is exactly the same as attacks on alliances that are designed to provoke a reaction or show weakness. I have no doubt that you personally have no malice about the issue, but the facts of the situation stand without regard to what anyone meant. Whatever your personal intentions, \m/ wrapped itself up with GOONS and MK in this endeavor and their intentions are clear.

No raider ever has enough. He will never have enough tech, nor land, nor casualties. 12 spheres isn't enough, you need 13. 3,000 non-Red unaligneds is not enough targets, you need 3,335. 3,335 unaligned nations isn't enough, you have to also attack micro-AAs. Micro-AAs aren't enough, raiders also need 20-60-nation alliances without treaties. Raiding itself isn't enough, you need mass-raids.

Raiders claim that "pseudo-moralists" and hegemonic powers threaten the freedom of alliances and nations to act, or impinge on their sovereignty. In fact, it is raiders who threaten alliances and nations, and raiders who force ransom at the end of a gun.

When a raider steals or attacks-to-ZI, or nukes just to nuke, it's the state of nature, and all in good fun. But when someone speaks out or stands up against raiders--the raiders say--they are being bullied and threatened.

Raiding is an act of pure cowardice. Some may raid for a lark, some may raid to get some experience. But the dedicated lifestyle raider is a small, small man.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Schattenmann

[Cotillion]

[quote name='savethecheerleader' date='20 July 2010 - 07:14 AM' timestamp='1279606438' post='2380156']
I honestly preferred when the dominant alliances of the world were those that imposed viceroys and destroyed alliances. That was interesting at very least. Nowadays dominant alliances simply sit back and enable this pack of retards to do whatever they want. Its not amusing, its not interest, its just annoying.
[/quote]

Are you implying that the dominant alliances are not involved in this fine Safari?

You should be careful what you wish for, though.

[Jacapo Saladin]

Here is a question. Why does red think it is a special sphere? Do you think it is fine to have people raid other spheres, but you get outraged when your own sphere is hit?

[savethecheerleader]

[quote name='King Puffington' date='20 July 2010 - 01:17 AM' timestamp='1279606636' post='2380162']
Are you implying that the dominant alliances are not involved in this fine Safari?

You should be careful what you wish for, though.
[/quote]
Well, members of those alliances are quite clearly involved. And I have no doubt that if they were not a part of powerful, well-connected alliances the raiders would not be undertaking organized endeavors such as this. Furthermore, those alliances will do nothing to curb this behavior. Thus, those alliances are enabling them.

As I understand it this safari was not officially planned or sanctioned by any of these alliances, so I guess I stopped short of saying they are explicitly involved.

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1279606583' post='2380160']
I'd like to know which it is: Talk to a reasonable guy about his course of action, or the decision has been made and there's no discussing it.

[/quote]


We can certainly discuss it like Chief has with CoJ already. He outlined all of the reasoning that went into our decisions to join MK, GOONS, and PC in the safari in great detail before this was brought to the public's attention. And as said several times already, it was not our intention to goad the Red team into a war. And while a majority of our raids are on the Red Team, we raid every color. Even the Black team. So we are not discriminating against the red team specifically, but we are saying through our actions that the Revenge Doctrine is not something we believe to be acceptable and will not be intimidated by it.

[Sandwich Controversy]

[quote name='savethecheerleader' date='20 July 2010 - 02:24 AM' timestamp='1279607038' post='2380168']
As I understand it this safari was not officially planned or sanctioned by any of these alliances, so I guess I stopped short of saying they are explicitly involved.
[/quote]
You would be incorrect.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' date='20 July 2010 - 02:20 AM' timestamp='1279606816' post='2380165']
Here is a question. Why does red think it is a special sphere? Do you think it is fine to have people raid other spheres, but you get outraged when your own sphere is hit?
[/quote]
Most spheres seek to minimize raids in their back yard. For example, P.E.A.C.E: "II) Prohibition against “raid*” style warfare against any Purple Sphere nation." NOIR has similar provisions along with other spheres. We are Red, Red is our concern, not other spheres.

[Jacapo Saladin]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 02:28 AM' timestamp='1279607266' post='2380174']
Most spheres seek to minimize raids in their back yard. For example, P.E.A.C.E: "II) Prohibition against “raid*” style warfare against any Purple Sphere nation." NOIR has similar provisions along with other spheres. We are Red, Red is our concern, not other spheres.
[/quote]

Yes and in PEACE we focused on making sure we didn't hurt our own people, we certainly never told other people to stop raiding purple. To do so is arrogant and pointless.

[wickedj]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 01:28 AM' timestamp='1279607266' post='2380174']
Most spheres seek to minimize raids in their back yard. For example, P.E.A.C.E: "II) Prohibition against “raid*” style warfare against any Purple Sphere nation." NOIR has similar provisions along with other spheres. We are Red, Red is our concern, not other spheres.
[/quote]
iirc NOIR is just something along the lines of nations in alliances who are in NOIR(Which \m/ isnt in) cant raid black

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='_GunneR_' date='20 July 2010 - 06:46 AM' timestamp='1279604759' post='2380092']
Although it is poorly worded document, I don't think anyone can deny that the spirit of it would translate that neither the original nor a modified version of the Revenge Doctrine would ever be used.
[/quote]

Actually, we who wrote it and negotiated it can [i]deny [/i]that. It was written with the express intent of allowing the modified version of Revenge to stand, specifically. There was conversation about it and a thread amongst the respective alliances, then a negotiation with NPO on the subject. Ironically enough, I believe that particular term was written by Revanche/Denial, currently residing in MK.

Good luck to everyone involved.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[Moridin]

It is a sad state of affairs when people feel the need to attack the defenseless in order to demonstrate their own power. Tech raiding is never going to disappear from CN but organizing raids not even for the purpose of profit but simply to show you're the toughest guy on the block is rather poor form.

[Sakura]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='19 July 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1279607266' post='2380174']
Most spheres seek to minimize raids in their back yard. For example, P.E.A.C.E: "II) Prohibition against “raid*” style warfare against any Purple Sphere nation." NOIR has similar provisions along with other spheres. We are Red, Red is our concern, not other spheres.
[/quote]

The difference is, NOIR and P.E.A.C.E. are prohibitions on *signatory* alliances raiding in a certain sphere.

\m/ and GOONS are not signatory to NOIR, and they're free to raid black as much as they want.

That is a key difference. PC can't sign a treaty with \m/ that says you have to give me 10k tech, any more than you can say we can't raid red.

[Voytek]

I've been waiting for the dam to finally burst, thanks for the read. If only I could be bothered gearing up for raiding I'd have joined in on this in a heartbeat

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sakura' date='20 July 2010 - 02:37 AM' timestamp='1279607839' post='2380186']
The difference is, NOIR and P.E.A.C.E. are prohibitions on *signatory* alliances raiding in a certain sphere.

\m/ and GOONS are not signatory to NOIR, and they're free to raid black as much as they want.

That is a key difference. PC can't sign a treaty with \m/ that says you have to give me 10k tech, any more than you can say we can't raid red.
[/quote]
There is no appreciable difference in the intent.

[The Reccesion]

By posting this, now they will raid you guys even more.

If you want them to stop, defend your unaligned. If not, then sit back and watch. You can't really do much.

[Mathias]

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 02:39 AM' timestamp='1279607957' post='2380189']
There is no appreciable difference in the intent.
[/quote]

Yes there is. The Revenge Doctrine attempts to dictate the actions of all, while NOIR, PEACE, etc. only place limits on the signatories' tech raiding.

EDIT: Grammar.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Mathias

[wickedj]

[quote name='The Reccesion' date='20 July 2010 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1279608158' post='2380193']
By posting this, now they will raid you guys even more.

If you want them to stop, defend your unaligned. If not, then sit back and watch. You can't really do much.
[/quote]
Pssst..that didnt work out so well last time itll work even worse this time

[the masheen]

[quote name='Moridin' date='20 July 2010 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1279607751' post='2380184']
It is a sad state of affairs when people feel the need to attack the defenseless in order to demonstrate their own power. Tech raiding is never going to disappear from CN but organizing raids not even for the purpose of profit but simply to show you're the toughest guy on the block is rather poor form.
[/quote]

Aren't you making an assumption based on no real facts there? When I read this I thought organized raids of colors was genuinely a pretty good idea. It's good for bonding of allies, better and more bountiful raids, and is just all around fun.

[quote name='Schattenmann' date='20 July 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1279607957' post='2380189']
There is no appreciable difference in the intent.
[/quote]

It sees the intent is to be friendly to YOUR OWN sphere, not to protect it from other colors.

[Banksy]

Red is the same as any other sphere. While I don't personally agree with raiding, I don't have an issue with Red being targeted at all. Sphere protectionism is ridiculous.

[The Reccesion]

[quote name='wickedj' date='20 July 2010 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1279608259' post='2380197']
Pssst..that didnt work out so well last time itll work even worse this time
[/quote]
What makes you so sure about that?

Win or lose, as long as you fight with honor s'all good.

[Moridin]

[quote name='the masheen' date='19 July 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1279608265' post='2380199']
Aren't you making an assumption based on no real facts there? When I read this I thought organized raids of colors was genuinely a pretty good idea. It's good for bonding of allies, better and more bountiful raids, and is just all around fun.
[/quote]

No, I'm making a statement based on the intent of the organized raid as described by many of its participants. Claiming that this raid is a bonding exercise is laughable.

[the masheen]

[quote name='Moridin' date='20 July 2010 - 12:48 AM' timestamp='1279608477' post='2380203']
No, I'm making a statement based on the intent of the organized raid as described by many of its participants. Claiming that this raid is a bonding exercise is laughable.
[/quote]

Yeah, almost as laughable as claiming it's just to show that they're "The toughest kids on the block". I was simply pointing out that PC, GOONS, Umbrella, \m/, and MK are all friends and I'm sure they're having a good time raiding together. Having good times with your friends is a form of bonding.

[Chief Savage Man]

I think friendly is a better word than friends for a few of those pairings. No offense.