The Freedom of The Seas

[D34th]

Now this thread is full of win

Hail Walford the protector of NONE nations!

[Guffey]

[quote name='Walford' date='06 April 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1270602317' post='2250998']
Leaving the nuke issue aside, when someone you don't know, much less did nothing to, knocks a couple teeth out, rifles through your pockets and more often than not, gets some other wimps to help him, what in blazes is "undue force" against that?

The aggressor who expects chivalry from his victim is a special sort of cretin who deserves what he gets. To their victims: Give it to them, I implore you.

You fight with everything you have if attacked without provocation and show these maggots that you don't care what they do to you. Period.

So what, your nation goes to ZI and sanctioned. Big freaking deal. I stopped counting the number of times my original nation had been ZI at 14. I'm still here and anyone who has tangled with me knows that there is nothing any of you can do to me to compromise my sovereignty. I have never surrendered and never will. I am not the only one who has the policy, I assure you.

The spirit of NONE still lives.

I still aspire for the day that this medieval phase on Planet Bob will end. Eating your own trading partners, regarding independent nations as tech cows and punching bags, not caring if you drive nations from the planet because of your thuggery, etc. We can do better than that.
[/quote]

This is not NONE though. You know my issues with NONE, and i still have those issues with it. This is an actual legitimate way to deal with things and not hiding among other nations.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Walford' date='06 April 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1270602317' post='2250998']
The aggressor who expects chivalry from his victim is a special sort of cretin who deserves what he gets.[/quote]

We prefer to be called "highwaymen" or "gentlemen raiders".

[quote]To their victims: Give it to them, I implore you.[/quote]

Most times this does indeed take the profit motive out of raiding. It however doesn't take into account the possibility that the raider is looking for a nice firefight to practice war skills and isn't motivated by profit, nor does it take into account the possibility that resistance may actually cause the raider to call upon friends to help take down a stubborn target and then take even more land and tech.

[quote]You fight with everything you have if attacked without provocation and show these maggots that you don't care what they do to you. Period.[/quote]

Or...talk to the raider rationally, diplomatically and work out a quick peace followed by a search for a proper alliance to join that will allow you to run your affair with minimal interference.

[quote]So what, your nation goes to ZI and sanctioned. Big freaking deal. I stopped counting the number of times my original nation had been ZI at 14. I'm still here and anyone who has tangled with me knows that there is nothing any of you can do to me to compromise my sovereignty. I have never surrendered and never will. I am not the only one who has the policy, I assure you. [/quote]

You also had more than your fair share of covert assistance over that same period. While your resolve in hanging around was indeed legendary, individual nations need friends on this world to survive or face much frustration.

[quote]I still aspire for the day that this medieval phase on Planet Bob will end. Eating your own trading partners, regarding independent nations as tech cows and punching bags, not caring if you drive nations from the planet because of your thuggery, etc. We can do better than that.[/quote]

At some point nations that raid "grow out of it" (either by choice or because there are simply no targets left at their NS) or disappear. That is the reality of Planet Bob. I would agree however that raiding possible trading partners, tech sellers, or even potential recruits is rather myopic. That's why many alliances ban raids by their member nations within their official team, set up tech deals and protectorates with microalliances and leave nations under a certain NS/age alone, either by writ or by common practice.

[Gracy O Malley]

Anyone that has the means to maintain nukes should not "lower themselves" to raiding, regardless.
If they can handle those bills, they should be able to buy their way through,

Most do, why is it a select few can't seen to be able to live by that?
An example; I was in a tech deal with an individual that overpaid..
I notified him of the error, he said to just keep it.

Why can't we all be civil, such in that case?
It all makes my head spin.
I guess thieves in the night will be thieves no matter what...
and shame on them!

Edited April 7, 2010 by Gracy O Malley

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Baldr' date='06 April 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1270599062' post='2250923']
I care a lot more about smaller nations, new guys who don't know how planet Bob works. Those guys join, and a few days later they have 3 nations attack them, they realize that the numbers are all against them, and it's very easy for them to give up and leave the planet, never to return.
[/quote]

This is my primary issue as well. Also what I find most attractive about the pact - the potential for helping new leaders to understand the unwritten rules. At least that way they can make educated choices.

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='D34th' date='06 April 2010 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1270603261' post='2251016']
Now this thread is full of win

Hail Walford the protector of NONE nations!
[/quote]

Say what you will. I have yet to meet anyone who is a better teacher for a new leader. And that is why I like the pact and the people/alliances willing to take part.

Edited April 7, 2010 by White Chocolate

[King DrunkWino]

[quote name='LJ Scott' date='06 April 2010 - 08:37 AM' timestamp='1270557412' post='2250290']
I've raided two pretty large nations this week as a result of this.

How does that make you feel?
[/quote]

Nasally congested.

I'll leave the floor open for silly questions for a few more minutes if anyone wants to get anymore in.

[Lord GVChamp]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='04 April 2010 - 11:30 PM' timestamp='1270441782' post='2248542']
http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?search=380091&Extended=1

Much love, WC.
[/quote]
[quote name='Jgoods45' date='06 April 2010 - 04:02 AM' timestamp='1270544528' post='2250227']
If I could go back in time, and if I was in charge, I would of paid 0 reps and would of refused to give any apology. I really don't care about unaligned nations or unprotected alliances. I don't really care for all these morals being thrown around here and there either. [ooc]This is a game and I treat it as such. [ooc]

But hey, we must take into account our CnG allies who had an obligation to defend us via our MDAP. We didn't want to see them harmed or our other allies such as Sparta, Poison Clan, IAA etc etc. We moved quickly and resolved the damn situation but at the same time, prepared for war just in case. Better safe then sorry ya know. But anyways, this is an old, dead resolved issue that no longer crosses our minds. We have more important things to worry about and don't have time to worry about raids. With that, I leave this thread and wish yall luck.
[/quote]
[quote name='LJ Scott' date='06 April 2010 - 07:37 AM' timestamp='1270557412' post='2250290']
I've raided two pretty large nations this week as a result of this.

How does that make you feel?
[/quote]






Ahhhh, it's so easy to be the good guy when they don't even PRETEND to have honor.

[Gracy O Malley]

It's actually sickening to see random attacks just because an announcement was made.

Evidently, there's no honor at all.

With the type of behavior we've seen here with war declarations, where will we all be?

[Caliph]

I personally do not raid anymore, but I will be looking at this very closely. The wording of this allows for the signatories to attack a raider, and then when said raider's alliance gets involved and counters them, VE, or other allies of the signatories, may deem it appropriate to get involved.

Poor wording allows for this interpretation, as Merrie has pointed out previously.

You will not infringe on nations "right" to raid without consequences.

I look forward to seeing how you handle raiders, if it is like NPO's Red Protection Court where they tried to solve everything diplomatically, or if certain alliances are raiding unaligned if there will be "shoot first ask questions later" mentality.

Like I said, I dislike the wording of this as it allows for VE to get involved if the signatories of this agreement decide to attack an aligned raider.

[Doitzel]

[quote name='Caliph' date='07 April 2010 - 04:05 AM' timestamp='1270627513' post='2251453']
You will not infringe ... without consequences.
[/quote]
Of course! So glad we could come to agreement with such ease.

[Sal Paradise]

[quote name='LJ Scott' date='06 April 2010 - 05:37 AM' timestamp='1270557412' post='2250290']
I've raided two pretty large nations this week as a result of this.

How does that make you feel?
[/quote]

Bored.

Not as bored as the GOONS announcement made me feel though.

[Gracy O Malley]

[quote name='Caliph' date='07 April 2010 - 04:05 AM' timestamp='1270627513' post='2251453']
You will not infringe on nations "right" to raid without consequences.

[/quote]


Oh snap! You got it!

No one has the right to steal..
I guess you got the meaning of it all?

Guess there are consequences especially where there are wrong doings.

[LJ Scott]

[quote name='Baldr' date='06 April 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1270581111' post='2250571']
At their size, if they are stupid enough to let you raid them without nuking you, I figure it's their problem. If you got nuked even once, it would offset any possible profit you could make from a whole bunch of raids.
[/quote]

Thing is, when you raid at my level, defending against the raider becomes the foolish option. Lest you want your infra level to start dropping dramatically. So they'd have to be stupid enough to nuke, as opposed to not nuking.


[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='07 April 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1270598523' post='2250907']
I don't give a hoot in hell about large & old independent nations that are over 100 days old, they have been around long enough to know what they are doing and the risks and benefits of not being in an alliance because they have most likely already been contacted repeatedly by the recruiting departments of just about every alliance and been informed of the risks.

What I don't like is people who raid small nations that are just starting up that have little to no idea of the politics and customs of this world. We should be more welcoming to newcomers, and attacking them while they are still learning the basics is just poor sportsmanship. Because an unprovoked attack is a very poor welcome.
[/quote]

Can you remember creating a nation? You're bombarded within your first day with invites to a whole host of alliances, detailing what they offer etc. If you're too ignorant to heed the advice you get when you start up, then when you get ganked by tech raiders you really have no one to blame but yourself.

[quote name='Lord GVChamp' date='07 April 2010 - 07:13 AM' timestamp='1270620799' post='2251397']
Ahhhh, it's so easy to be the good guy when they don't even PRETEND to have honor.
[/quote]

I'm a good guy? Schweet!

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='LJ Scott' date='07 April 2010 - 08:48 AM' timestamp='1270644492' post='2251564']
Thing is, when you raid at my level, defending against the raider becomes the foolish option. Lest you want your infra level to start dropping dramatically. So they'd have to be stupid enough to nuke, as opposed to not nuking.[/quote]

When you are raiding at your level (Nation Strength: 84,515.561), you look a bit like a 30-something trying to fit in with college kids by buying everyone beer. Sure, the young folk appreciate the free brew, but the girls occasionally slip and call you, "Mr. Scott".

I had the good sense to retire from raiding once I realized that I was offering more advice to the target on how to avoid getting raiding in the future and offering diplomatic help to get him into the alliance of his choice than I was actually enjoying the raid. Will I never, ever raid again? I've learned never say never on Planet Bob.

[quote]Can you remember creating a nation? You're bombarded within your first day with invites to a whole host of alliances, detailing what they offer etc. If you're too ignorant to heed the advice you get when you start up, then when you get ganked by tech raiders you really have no one to blame but yourself.[/quote]

I don't recall anywhere in the "brochure" regarding how to run a nation on Planet Bob there being a description of the critical nature of joining an alliance, or that raiding was written into the laws of physics for Planet Bob. However, you do have a point--just as there are unwritten cultural rules "elsewhere", joining an alliance is an unwritten cultural rule here.

[quote]I'm a good guy? Schweet![/quote]

Well, wardrobe wise people stopped wearing Van Halen t-shirts about 20 years ago, as for the hair, get a *real* haircut--"business in front, party in the back" ain't making it, and as for your tendency to chase raids...I hope that you at least have the common sense to ask for ID and don't take her word for it that's she legal.

[Godwin]

[quote name='Atanatar' date='06 April 2010 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1270591764' post='2250771']
Despite your brave talk and well meaning intentions, you're advocating that nations retaliate with undue force, and thus likely to result in the raided nation being declared rogue by any sensible alliance, opening them selves to possible ZI and sanctions. So, please, before you go around trumpeting how hard core people should be, maybe you hould think through the full implications of a "Nuke first, question later" mentality.
[/quote]

Atanatar, what are you talking about? If I raid someone, I fully expect them to retaliate in full force against me. Wouldn't you expect the same?

Now, if someone got tech raided and responded by nuking the aggressor's entire alliance, I would call that undue force, but fighting back against the raider is just common sense, and that's what most raiders want to get out of the exchange anyhow. War is, after all, fun.

[Baldr]

[quote name='Caliph' date='07 April 2010 - 03:05 AM' timestamp='1270627513' post='2251453']
You will not infringe on nations "right" to raid without consequences.
[/quote]

You have no right to raid without consequences.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Baldr' date='07 April 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1270672129' post='2252011']
You have no right to raid without consequences.
[/quote]
I do believe the meaning of that is "You will not infringe, without consequences, on nations "right" to raid", not that raiding has no consequences.

Edited April 7, 2010 by ktarthan

[o ya baby]

Aid any nations I'm raiding and I'm coming for your alliance.

[Vilien]

[quote name='o ya baby' date='07 April 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1270673129' post='2252033']
Aid any nations I'm raiding and I'm coming for your alliance.
[/quote]
You can come for my alliance right now, scum.

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Vilien' date='07 April 2010 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1270673812' post='2252044']
You can come for my alliance right now, scum.
[/quote]

Careful, that's a valid CB these days.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='ChairmanHal' date='07 April 2010 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1270647727' post='2251585']
I don't recall anywhere in the "brochure" regarding how to run a nation on Planet Bob there being a description of the critical nature of joining an alliance, or that raiding was written into the laws of physics for Planet Bob. However, you do have a point--just as there are unwritten cultural rules "elsewhere", joining an alliance is an unwritten cultural rule here.
[/quote]

What? There's a section in possibly every alliances recruitment messages that says "WE WILL OFFER YOU PROTECTION FROM TECH RAIDERS!". After all, it's probably one of the best reasons for a nation to join an alliance.

[Godwin]

[quote name='Mr Damsky' date='07 April 2010 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1270684655' post='2252298']
What? There's a section in possibly every alliances recruitment messages that says "WE WILL OFFER YOU PROTECTION FROM TECH RAIDERS!". After all, it's probably one of the best reasons for a nation to join an alliance.
[/quote]

Absolutely. With all the recruitment messages, there's really no excuse for being unaligned after the initial free peace period, unless you want to. And for that, there are obvious consequences.

[Ying Yang Mafia]

[quote]A joint declaration of the belief that tech/land raiding is a violation of national sovereignty, denying victim nations their right to peaceful economic growth, constituting piracy.[/quote]

The despicable nations of NEW violated my national sovereignty by raiding tech and land during the last war. I feel that they should be dealt with swiftly and harshly.

And don't even get me started on the horrible transgressions committed by TOP as they raided tech and land from C&G.

[Bob Janova]

In case you didn't notice, TOP are now paying large reparations as a penalty for doing that. Or are you supporting tech raiders paying punitive reps for every attack? I can get behind that