Ok, admit it, you spent the last few weeks watching Olympic Curling

[Caffine]

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='09 March 2010 - 08:50 PM' timestamp='1268186147' post='2220205']
It also doesn't change the fact that you came to pc, and immediately threatened war. Seems like in terms of getting a good solution to this situation you should have known better.
[/quote]

But that's just not the case

First query
[quote]Session Start: Mon Mar 01 10:30:04 2010
Session Ident: Citizenkane
01[10:30] <Caffine[Echelon]> Hi
[10:30] <Citizenkane> hi there
01[10:30] <Caffine[Echelon]> It appears you're attacking one of our protectorates
[10:30] <Citizenkane> how're you
01[10:30] <Caffine[Echelon]> Not bad
01[10:30] <Caffine[Echelon]> Yourself?
[10:30] <Citizenkane> yeah good
[10:31] <Citizenkane> Who's your protectorate?
01[10:31] <Caffine[Echelon]> SBA
01[10:31] <Caffine[Echelon]> http://www.cybernations.net/search_wars.asp?searchstring=Declaring_Alliance%2CReceiving_Alliance&search=SBA&anyallexact=exact
[10:31] <Citizenkane> sec
[10:38] <Citizenkane> I'll get back to you
[10:38] <Citizenkane> need to speak to members etc
01[10:39] <Caffine[Echelon]> Alright
[11:19] <Citizenkane> wwokay
[11:19] <Citizenkane> Guys have been told to peace out
[11:19] <Citizenkane> and have been raid banned for 1 month
[11:19] <Citizenkane> How did you want to proceed?
01[11:20] <Caffine[Echelon]> I appreciate your swiftness with the matter. We're reviewing the battle reports now, and will get back to you as soon as possible with the damage figures
[11:20] <Citizenkane> So you want reps?
01[11:20] <Caffine[Echelon]> Yes, nothing punitive, just cost of damage done
01[11:28] <Caffine[Echelon]> I have to run to a study session, but I should be back soon.
Session Close: Mon Mar 01 11:40:40 2010

Session Start: Mon Mar 01 11:40:40 2010
Session Ident: Citizenkane
[12:54] <Citizenkane> join #smelly
Session Close: Mon Mar 01 14:21:44 2010

Session Start: Thu Mar 04 02:39:53 2010
Session Ident: Citizenkane
[02:40] <Citizenkane> Can I help you?
01[02:40] <Caffine[Echelon]> I'm sure Sakura showed it to you, but just to be sure http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tSaPaRnEbKj0B5EPyM4yW7w&output=html
[02:40] <Citizenkane> Yep thanks
[02:40] <Citizenkane> bye
Session Close: Thu Mar 04 14:35:24 2010

Session Start: Thu Mar 04 14:35:24 2010
Session Ident: Citizenkane
Session Close: Thu Mar 04 17:03:22 2010
[/quote]

[quote]
Session Start: Mon Mar 01 12:55:08 2010
Session Ident: #smelly
03[12:55] * Now talking in #smelly
01[12:55] <Caffine[Echelon]> Hi
[12:55] <Sakura> Hello.
[12:55] <Derwood1[PC]> hey Caffine[Echelon]
03[12:55] * Retrieving #smelly modes...
[12:55] <Citizenkane> Want to get someone else from Echelon in
[12:55] <Citizenkane> ?
01[12:55] <Caffine[Echelon]> Yeah, let me see who is on
03[12:56] * DeathAngel (~Kooishere@[ModEdit - hostmask]) has joined #smelly
[12:56] <DeathAngel> 'lo
03[12:56] * Citizenkane sets mode: +oo Caffine[Echelon] DeathAngel
[12:56] <Citizenkane> Cool ok
[12:56] <Citizenkane> Sakura, over to you
[12:57] <Sakura> In researching the SBA matter -- it came to my attention that someone made a bunch of edits to the SBA article today.
[12:57] <Sakura> (Or rather, SBA related articles.)
[12:58] <Sakura> Those edits removed the merger notices at the top and bottom of the article.
[12:59] <Sakura> And were made by an unidentified user by the IP of [ModEdit - IP].
[13:00] <Citizenkane> [ModEdit - hostmask]
[13:01] <Citizenkane> if you do a tracert in windows
[13:01] <Citizenkane> comes up with that hostname
01[13:02] <Caffine[Echelon]> I see, one moment
[13:07] <Derwood1[PC]> Caffine[Echelon], I have ordered the 3 raiders to stand down. When I saw the raids last night I went to the SBA wiki and it def has disbanded on the top and bottom of the page, we have screenshots. Sakura also has placed a 30 day raiding ban on the 3 raiders. I will also put SBA on our "do not raid" list.
[13:09] <DeathAngel> what were the annotations of the "disbanded" references?
[13:09] <DeathAngel> because for me, the wiki is a good place to start a research, but never anything solid to end with
01[13:09] <Caffine[Echelon]> I appreciate that, however 3 nations were attacked, and as this is not the first time poison clan has attacked one of our protectorates (The wikipedia page saying that we had merged were incorrect, I'd say vandalism but they were done by the wiki admin)
[13:09] <Citizenkane> Caffine[Echelon], regardless of whats happened in the past
01[13:09] <Caffine[Echelon]> Also, the wiki clearly lists them as still being members of the commonwealth of Echelon, and a protectorate is clearly mentioned on Echelon's page
[13:09] <Citizenkane> this is still relevant
[13:10] <Sakura> Again, that was edited *today*.
01[13:10] <Caffine[Echelon]> The part about the commonwealth?
[13:10] <Sakura> They weren't listed as members yesterday.
[13:10] <Derwood1[PC]> we have screenshots of thqt also
01[13:11] <Caffine[Echelon]> [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?title=Spacebattles.com_Alliance&diff=next&oldid=301445"]http://cybernations....xt&oldid=301445[/url]
[13:11] <DeathAngel> maybe you can post them
[13:11] <DeathAngel> so we are on common ground on what the wiki said yesterday and today
01[13:11] <Caffine[Echelon]> [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?title=Spacebattles.com_Alliance&oldid=301445"]http://cybernations....ce&oldid=301445[/url]
01[13:11] <Caffine[Echelon]> Both of those pages should display what it was from february through today
[13:12] <Derwood1[PC]> [url="http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff14/Derwood130/echelon-sba.jpg"]http://i237.photobuc...echelon-sba.jpg[/url]
01[13:13] <Caffine[Echelon]> That clearly says that they are active members of the commonwealth
[13:13] <DeathAngel> so, the merger had no link of any kind to any announcement, plus what caffine said
01[13:13] <Caffine[Echelon]> There was no such merger
[13:13] <Derwood1[PC]> [url="http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff14/Derwood130/echelon-sba2.jpg"]http://i237.photobuc...chelon-sba2.jpg[/url]
01[13:14] <Caffine[Echelon]> That's fine, but we never made that edit
01[13:14] <Caffine[Echelon]> Also on Echelon's page, which hasn't been edited, we have them listed
01[13:14] <Caffine[Echelon]> as well as on the commonwealth of echelon page
01[13:15] <Caffine[Echelon]> As we had originally stated, we're not looking for punative reps, we'd just like any damage that was done to be repaid
01[13:15] <Caffine[Echelon]> To the three nations
[13:16] <Sakura> Except, it had the merger notice from October 17th until today.
01[13:16] <Caffine[Echelon]> It wasn't official
01[13:16] <Caffine[Echelon]> There was no owf post
01[13:16] <Caffine[Echelon]> Nothing with an echelon or sba signiture on it
[13:17] <Sakura> Likewise, the SBA forums have been dead (in terms of posts) for upwards of two months.
[13:17] <Derwood1[PC]> also this [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/index.php?title=Commonwealth_of_Echelon&oldid=301343"]http://cybernations....on&oldid=301343[/url]
01[13:17] <Caffine[Echelon]> What does that have to do with it?
01[13:17] <Caffine[Echelon]> the sba forums
[13:17] <Sakura> How many alliances have *9* posts in a month+?
01[13:18] <Caffine[Echelon]> again, an edit not made by either alliance
[13:18] <Derwood1[PC]> i was in one once.....the month it disbanded
01[13:18] <Caffine[Echelon]> And the number of posts makes no difference
01[13:18] <Caffine[Echelon]> They're still under our protection
01[13:19] <Caffine[Echelon]> Listen, we really want this to be a simple matter and we're not looking for any escalation. We would just like damage to be repaid
01[13:19] <Caffine[Echelon]> and not a penny more
[13:19] <Citizenkane> You could argue the fact that because there was no OWF annoucements, it was never official and therefore never protected etc
01[13:19] <Caffine[Echelon]> Oh there was an announcemment
01[13:19] <Caffine[Echelon]> that we are protecting them
[13:19] <Citizenkane> Link?
01[13:20] <Caffine[Echelon]> [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=35323&st=0"]http://forums.cybern...opic=35323&st=0[/url]
[13:21] <Derwood1[PC]> well get the numbers to me and I will discuss it with Twisted, he is out of town right now
01[13:21] <Caffine[Echelon]> Will do
01[13:22] <Caffine[Echelon]> Now if you'll excuse me, I have an exam in an hour so I really need to go do some more last minute studying
01[13:22] <Caffine[Echelon]> Thanks for talking with us
Session Close: Mon Mar 01 13:22:24 2010
[/quote]

That was the first record of communication.

This was the only other official communication
[quote]Sunday, March 7
[quote](13:54:51) pezstar: I'm ready when you guys are.
(13:55:18) pezstar: I'm supposed to make it clear, per the rest of my gov, that I am not here on behalf of STA or anything like that. It's just me, an impartial middleman.
(13:55:26) Twisted: Sounds good
(13:55:34) Caffine[Echelon]: Cool
(13:55:42) Sakura: How's Heinousone?
(13:55:59) pezstar: I haven't heard from him in awhile.
(13:56:17) pezstar: He goes through very pleasant quiet periods
(13:56:50) Sakura: Followed by going after everyone in sight?
(13:57:05) pezstar: Right.
(14:01:19) Sakura: Owing to edits to Wikia performed by an Echelon member by the name of memoryproblems, among other things, reps are not warranted in this situation. ???
(14:02:42) Caffine[Echelon]: I fail to see how the edits to a wiki--which are public record-- to correct something that is wrong is considered a negative act
(14:02:54) Sakura: Four and a half months later.
(14:03:11) Caffine[Echelon]: How is that relavent?
(14:03:14) Sakura: By someone who isn't even a member of the alliance you claim to protect.
(14:03:24) Caffine[Echelon]: There's no claim
(14:03:25) Solidus: Echelon does not own that website.
(14:03:29) Sakura: That it wasn't noticed and corrected in almost half a year.
(14:03:35) Caffine[Echelon]: There was a public announcement
(14:03:39) Caffine[Echelon]: We noticed it when you guys attacked
(14:03:59) Sakura: Also, SBA is not listed in your current treaties -- either on Wikia or on your own forums.
(14:04:04) Caffine[Echelon]: yeah they are
(14:04:08) Sakura: (As of March first.)
(14:04:15) Sakura: Really?
(14:04:21) Caffine[Echelon]: Regardless of what a wiki says--anybody can edit a wiki--we have publically announced our protection of SBA, and never issued anything saying otherwise
(14:04:21) Caffine[Echelon]: yes
(14:04:42) Sakura: Your alliance does not list SBA on its own forums as a protectorate.
(14:04:45) Caffine[Echelon]: It says right on there
(14:04:54) Caffine[Echelon]: ODP Optional Defense Treaty Valhalla
(14:04:54) Caffine[Echelon]: Protectorate Protectorate Agreement Spacebattles.com Alliance
(14:05:14) Caffine[Echelon]: So now we're switching to the Echelon site?
(14:05:15) Sakura: Spacebattles.com Alliance does not exist in game.
(14:05:19) Caffine[Echelon]: I thought we were talking about the wiki
(14:05:20) Caffine[Echelon]: SBA does
(14:05:36) Caffine[Echelon]: And regardless of if it didn't they are a blatantly protected alliance
(14:06:02) Sakura: SBA is not listed on your treaty list.
(14:06:03) Caffine[Echelon]: The SBA page listed them as a member of the commonwealth for well more than 6 months
(14:06:05) Caffine[Echelon]: yeah they are
(14:06:41) Solidus: SBA were one of the original Commonwealth signatories, which predates Karma.
(14:06:42) Caffine[Echelon]: [url="http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5592"]http://img199.images....us/img199/5592[/url] ... 143393.jpg
(14:07:41) Sakura: The Commonwealth article and templatebox were both edited as well.
(14:07:46) Caffine[Echelon]: So?
(14:07:49) Sakura: All on March 1st.
(14:07:52) Caffine[Echelon]: Somebody vandalized it, and we fixed it
(14:08:10) Caffine[Echelon]: Anybody can edit a wiki
(14:08:30) Caffine[Echelon]: When doing research on who to raid, a wiki is a starting point
(14:08:42) Caffine[Echelon]: Also, I believe that the raid was a violation of your own charter
(14:09:03) Caffine[Echelon]: 6) Don't re-raid. If you or another member of Poison Clan have raided them in the past or if they just finished getting raided by another alliance, leave them alone.
(14:09:18) Caffine[Echelon]: Poison Clan attacked PC in July of 2009
(14:09:27) Sakura: Really?
(14:09:38) Caffine[Echelon]: Among the raider, SoutherComfort was involved in both the raid on SBA in July and the recent one
(14:09:39) Sakura: I thought you couldn't have two letter AAs.
(14:09:49) Caffine[Echelon]: two letter
(14:09:50) Caffine[Echelon]: err
(14:09:52) Caffine[Echelon]: bah
(14:09:56) Caffine[Echelon]: Poison clan attacked sba
(14:10:34) Derwood1[PC]: well that is not a re-raid
(14:11:26) Caffine[Echelon]: So as not to waste any of our time here, are you willing to negotiate numbers at all?
(14:11:43) Sakura: Zero. That is the number.
(14:11:59) Caffine[Echelon]: Alright, thanks
(14:12:00) Caffine[Echelon] left the room.
(14:12:17) pezstar: Sakura, are you willing to negotiate on that, or are you dead set against paying?
(14:13:10) Sakura: There isn't anything *to* negotiate -- a *current* member of Echelon by the name of Drstrangelove1977 did the merger edit in October.
(14:13:41) Derwood1[PC]: pezster the wiki was clearly edited by members of this allinace
(14:13:49) Derwood1[PC]: stayed that way since October
(14:14:22) Derwood1[PC]: i could see it if it was a few days or soemthing but 4+months
(14:14:36) Derwood1[PC]: then when the raids happened
(14:14:49) Derwood1[PC]: it was all edited back to making SBA exist
(14:15:05) Derwood1[PC]: our guys looked at the wiki and saw it was a disbanded alliance
(14:15:27) Solidus: Ask yourself, if we had no protectorate arrangement with SBA, would we come to you to negotiate this situation?
(14:16:20) Sakura: If one thought they could pull a fast one on someone for quick profit? A lot of people *would*.
(14:16:30) pezstar: Right. I understand that, but they did have an AA in their tags, so they were clearly not disbanded. I'm not saying the Wiki situation doesn't complicate things, but they were an alliance, and they were protected, even if the wiki didn't reflect that.
(14:16:55) Solidus: Echelon gains nothing by protecting SBA bar a long friendship.
(14:17:48) pezstar: And it's my understanding that Echelon is asking for a boatload of money. Perhaps, instead of the actual damages they're requesting, Echelon would be willing to settle it for, say, 100M?
(14:18:40) pezstar: Since there were only 3 effected nations, that's just two rounds of aid.
(14:19:03) Solidus: We would be willing to settle for that, yes.
(14:19:04) Velocity111 [Anon@poisonclan.net] entered the room.
(14:19:22) Velocity111 left the room.
(14:19:33) Derwood1[PC]: lol
(14:19:35) Sakura: 4-13-2007
(14:19:35) Sakura: ONOS and GOLD have been added as sanctioned alliances in-game. Cyber Nations does not use acronyms in-game so ONOS will need to change their AA to Organized Nations Of Superiority and GOLD will need to change their AA to Global Organization for Liberty and Defense. Blame your NPO and NpO buddies for the reason why CN does not use acronyms.
(14:19:40) pezstar: My mistake. That's actually one round of aid. I got war slots and aid slots mixed. Stupid war.
(14:20:01) Derwood1[PC]: math in public
(14:20:06) Derwood1[PC]: lol
(14:20:25) Sakura: Now, you were saying about SBA being protected?
(14:20:36) pezstar: Plus I'm a girl. I enjoy perpetrating stereotypes.
(14:21:05) pezstar: also, perpetuating them.
(14:21:40) Solidus: SBA are an alliance regardless of name, and we seek to preserve their community and thus, their member nations.
(14:22:38) Sakura: Again, Echelon did not list SBA as an alliance with which they have a treaty -- they listed the non-existent AA of Spacebattles.com Alliance.
(14:22:52) Solidus: You are splitting hairs.
(14:24:28) Derwood1[PC]: well from our point of view SBA/spaceballes.com ceased to exist ~Oct 09, we talked to former memebers who confirmed that, wiki said that for months. Then after the raids the alliance was resurected on the wiki.
(14:25:20) Solidus: And as I have previously stated, Echelon does not own that website or officially endorse Echelon-related content on said website.
(14:25:34) Sakura: How about your own forums?
(14:26:02) Solidus: We own our forums, and as stated, SBA is a member of the Echelon Commonwealth.
(14:26:04) Derwood1[PC]: well the owner/members of SBA disbanded their alliance how can you have a treaty with an entity that is no longer in existance
(14:27:54) Solidus: If SBA had disbanded, how do they maintain an embassy with Echelon?
(14:29:03) Sakura: How are we supposed to know whether or not someone "claiming" to be with anyone has an embassy on your forums?
(14:29:46) Solidus: You stated that SBA no longer exists, we disagree.
(14:30:38) Solidus: Perhaps before rampaging across unknown lands, you check with the unfortunate targets that they're legit.
(14:30:49) Derwood1[PC]: I mean really we go to an alliances wiki it says it is disbanded.....do we then have to check with every alliance on Bob to make sure no on has a treaty wit them.....surely their needs to be some responsibilty to keep ones Wiki page moderately up-to-date otherwise you shouldn't have one
(14:31:45) Sakura: And, Spacebattles.com/SBA was *quite* good at keeping their wikia article up-to-date for some time before that.
(14:32:24) Derwood1[PC]: Echelon should be going to SBA and asking them about their acitivity levels.
(14:32:59) Solidus: Or perhaps you should avoid interfering with alliances that could potentially be protected. Just saying.
(14:33:05) pezstar: There has to be a reasonable middle ground. It wasn't clear to PC that SBA was still in existence. They had no malicious intent. It is fair for Echelon to seek reparations on behalf of their protectorate. Both sides have made their positions clear. Echelon is willing to accept 100M to settle the situation. Is Poison Clan willing to pay this?
(14:33:38) Sakura: No.
(14:33:54) pezstar: What are you willing to do for the nations of SBA?
(14:34:31) Sakura: Perhaps Echelon should have considered coming to us *before* editing Wikia?
(14:35:12) Sakura: Perhaps someone should have checked the articles linked to when they created the Echelon treaty box at the end of October?
(14:35:31) Solidus: Again, Echelon is not responsible for content on the Wiki
(14:35:32) pezstar: There were mistakes made on both sides. This is why a compromise is in order, rather than a full damages reps situation or a nothing at all situation.
(14:35:45) Sakura: Echelon *is* when their member(s) make the edits.
(14:36:34) Sakura: A member of Echelon made the edit that SBA/Spacebattle.com had merged.
(14:36:44) Sakura: Another member of Echelon removed that entry.
(14:39:04) Solidus: I keep saying this, but you keep passing it by: Echelon does not sanction content on the CN Wiki.
(14:39:22) Solidus: All sanctioned material appears on our forums or on the CN forums.
(14:41:20) Derwood1[PC]: surely 4 months someone should have corrected it
(14:41:29) Solidus: "someone"
(14:41:56) Solidus: I have not issued orders to any of my subordinates to rectify CN Wiki content.
(14:42:44) Sakura: What about SBA/Spacebattles.com?
(14:42:57) Derwood1[PC]: Ok I will wrap this up. We do not feel reps are warrented in this situation. We will put SBA on a no raid list and we wish you all the best.
(14:44:08) Solidus: Very well, it is unfortunate that we could not reach consensus in this matter.
(14:44:32) Solidus: Pezstar, do you have anything to add?
(14:44:56) pezstar: I'm here if you guys want to try again later. thanks for keeping it civil. Best of luck to both parties.
(14:45:11) Twisted: Sounds good, best of luck to Echelon and thank you pezstar
(14:45:16) Twisted left the room.
(14:45:18) Solidus: Thank you for your moderation pez, it was appreciated [/quote]
[/quote]

Edited March 10, 2010 by Tocsii
ModEdit: Remember to remove IPs and hostmasks before posting.

[FreddieMercury]

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='10 March 2010 - 01:50 AM' timestamp='1268186147' post='2220205']
It also doesn't change the fact that you came to pc, and immediately threatened war.
[/quote]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[Neo Anglia]

[quote name='Omniscient1' date='09 March 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1268185857' post='2220193']
Just to throw this in here: it appears PC also is violating their own raiding rules by not paying reps? I think this is one of the most important claims. Does this mean PC's charter is now void? If so I declare myself emperor of PC. I have always wanted to be in the same alliance as Choader
[/quote]Or even better, that they are disbanded and therefore raid fodder

[Chief Savage Man]

Public judgment of a private charter? Gee, this looks really familiar.

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='cookavich' date='09 March 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1268185867' post='2220194']
It's not flawed. PC is pawning off their mistakes on Echelon. They're blaming Echelon for the fact that they violated their own charter. Where's the flaw in that?
[/quote]

PC already stated that they did not violate their charter.

Echelon did not fix the errors on their wiki until someone saw it and came to the reasonable conclusion that the AA was not an official alliance with any ties and was free to raid. Echelon didn't act until the damage was already done and so they are partly to blame.

As much as you may scoff at it, the wiki is something people do use as a source of information and alliances that realize that keep them reasonably up to date. A treaty missing I might see, but a giant (false) merger notice staying up there for so long? Seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Edited March 10, 2010 by LegendoftheSkies

[Duckz3]

[quote name='AirMe' date='09 March 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1268184821' post='2220156']
Echelon didn't screw up bub. PC did.
[/quote]
Airme, Are you Daft? PC did not screw up, Echelon did. Get your facts straight.

[Lord Brendan]

Still not feeling the neutrality.

[Caffine]

[quote name='LegendoftheSkies' date='09 March 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1268186611' post='2220229']
PC already stated that they did not violate their charter.

Echelon did not fix the errors on their wiki until someone saw it and came to the reasonable conclusion that the AA was not an official alliance with any ties and was free to raid. They didn't act until the damage was already done and so they are partly to blame.

As much as you may scoff at it, the wiki is something people do use as a source of information and alliances that realize that keep them reasonably up to date. A treaty missing I might see, but a giant (false) merger notice staying up there for so long? Seems pretty ridiculous to me.
[/quote]

It was up for a period of less than 1 month, during a war.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Duckz3' date='09 March 2010 - 07:59 PM' timestamp='1268186688' post='2220231']
Airme, Are you Daft? PC did not screw up, Echelon did. Get your facts straight.
[/quote]
The "no u" defense? Really? REALLY?

[Earogema]

[quote]protectorates only apply when you have the might to back them up.[/quote]

YES GOOD JOB

No seriously, if people stopped taking protectorates they can't defend, this wouldn't happen. Echelon might be trying to "defend" SBA but it's not really working and everybody knows as much.

[AirMe]

[quote name='LegendoftheSkies' date='09 March 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1268186611' post='2220229']
PC already stated that they did not violate their charter.

Echelon did not fix the errors on their wiki until someone saw it and came to the reasonable conclusion that the AA was not an official alliance with any ties and was free to raid. They didn't act until the damage was already done and so they are partly to blame.

As much as you may scoff at it, the wiki is something people do use as a source of information and alliances that realize that keep them reasonably up to date. A treaty missing I might see, but a giant (false) merger notice staying up there for so long? Seems pretty ridiculous to me.
[/quote]

SBA protectorate has been clearly listed on the Echelon wiki since it was signed. This is why you look before you leap so you don't land in a steaming pile of dog poo.

[Proko]

[quote name='LegendoftheSkies' date='09 March 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1268186611' post='2220229']
PC already stated that they did not violate their charter.

Echelon did not fix the errors on their wiki until someone saw it and came to the reasonable conclusion that the AA was not an official alliance with any ties and was free to raid. They didn't act until the damage was already done and so they are partly to blame.

As much as you may scoff at it, the wiki is something people do use as a source of information and alliances that realize that keep them reasonably up to date. A treaty missing I might see, but a giant (false) merger notice staying up there for so long? Seems pretty ridiculous to me.
[/quote]

Why are you insisting Echelon's Wiki page is their responsibility? Unless their charter or some piece of policy of theirs says otherwise, they have no responsibility over the Wiki page. It is completely independent of the alliance Echelon, and maintained by the Wiki Admins, none of whom may be affiliated with Echelon. As I said before, if there is a factual error in the entry for "The Unjust War," it is not the responsibility of "The Unjust War" to fix the error. Similarly, it is not Echelon's responsibility.

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='LegendoftheSkies' date='09 March 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1268186611' post='2220229']
PC already stated that they did not violate their charter.

Echelon did not fix the errors on their wiki until someone saw it and came to the reasonable conclusion that the AA was not an official alliance with any ties and was free to raid. They didn't act until the damage was already done and so they are partly to blame.

As much as you may scoff at it, the wiki is something people do use as a source of information and alliances that realize that keep them reasonably up to date. A treaty missing I might see, but a giant (false) merger notice staying up there for so long? Seems pretty ridiculous to me.
[/quote]

The wiki was still accurate to the dot with their Commonwealth though, if the alliance was disbanded as of like 2 months or however long it was, wouldn't the Commonwealth therefore have been updated too at the sametime? It was updated for all 3 other alliances.

[Caffine]

[quote name='bigwoody' date='09 March 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1268186782' post='2220237']
The "no u" defense? Really? REALLY?
[/quote]

Without this image

[img]http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8273/nouqv.jpg[/img]
It just doesn't have the same effect.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='LegendoftheSkies' date='10 March 2010 - 01:58 AM' timestamp='1268186611' post='2220229']
PC already stated that they did not violate their charter.

Echelon did not fix the errors on their wiki until someone saw it and came to the reasonable conclusion that the AA was not an official alliance with any ties and was free to raid. They didn't act until the damage was already done and so they are partly to blame.

As much as you may scoff at it, the wiki is something people do use as a source of information and alliances that realize that keep them reasonably up to date. A treaty missing I might see, but a giant (false) merger notice staying up there for so long? Seems pretty ridiculous to me.
[/quote]

Actualy it specificaly says by mistake. If its a mistake it means they didn't mean to raid a protected alliance so I they at least broke the raiding rules. I don't know if those raiding rules are a specific part of their charter or if it is just a law passed by their government something and then posted on their wiki. Either way they violated their own rules.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Duckz3' date='09 March 2010 - 08:59 PM' timestamp='1268186688' post='2220231']
Airme, Are you Daft? PC did not screw up, Echelon did. Get your facts straight.
[/quote]

No, but you clearly are an idiot to think Echelon screwed up here and not PC. The SBA protectorate has been clearly listed on the Echelon wiki since it's inception. The SBA people have "PROTECTED BY ECHELON" in their nation bios. And PC violated their charter by raiding an alliance for a second time. EDIT: The multiple nations that have been on the AA for over 1000 days should have been another tip off.

Yes clearly that is all Echelons fault FOR DOING ALL THE RIGHT THINGS!

Edited March 10, 2010 by AirMe

[Caffine]

[quote name='AirMe' date='09 March 2010 - 09:04 PM' timestamp='1268186961' post='2220248']
No, but you clearly are an idiot to think Echelon screwed up here and not PC. The SBA protectorate has been clearly listed on the Echelon wiki since it's inception. The SBA people have "PROTECTED BY ECHELON" in their nation bios. And PC violated their charter by raiding an alliance for a second time.

Yes clearly that is all Echelons fault.
[/quote]

Not to correct you AirMe, but this was actually the THIRD time they raided SBA.

[Earogema]

[quote name='AirMe' date='09 March 2010 - 08:04 PM' timestamp='1268186961' post='2220248']
No, but you clearly are an idiot to think Echelon screwed up here and not PC. The SBA protectorate has been clearly listed on the Echelon wiki since it's inception. The SBA people have "PROTECTED BY ECHELON" in their nation bios. And PC violated their charter by raiding an alliance for a second time.

Yes clearly that is all Echelons fault FOR DOING ALL THE RIGHT THINGS!
[/quote]
Only 3 have it in their bios (of 13) and the SBA protectorate wasn't on the SBA page.

I know there are other sources. Just sayin'.

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Earogema' date='09 March 2010 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1268187120' post='2220254']
Only 3 have it in their bios (of 13) and the SBA protectorate wasn't on the SBA page.

I know there are other sources. Just sayin'.
[/quote]

3 is enough to have to question it, and on the wiki was the Commonwealth protectorate agreement with them not crossed out.

[Earogema]

[quote name='lonewolfe2015' date='09 March 2010 - 08:08 PM' timestamp='1268187200' post='2220259']
3 is enough to have to question it, and on the wiki was the Commonwealth protectorate agreement with them not crossed out.
[/quote]
Yes, however their "Diplomatic Relations" subsection also has their merger date as October 17.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Caffine1' date='09 March 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1268187032' post='2220250']
Not to correct you AirMe, but this was actually the THIRD time they raided SBA.
[/quote]

Echelon - Best Protectors 2010

[Jgoods45]

How very interesting. I guess I'll do the normal ally thing and say to Poison Clan that we will be there for you should this situation blow up.

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Earogema' date='09 March 2010 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1268187258' post='2220260']
Yes, however their "Diplomatic Relations" subsection also has their merger date as October 17.
[/quote]

But, the Commonwealth still had them listed and was kept to up date, so if things were THIS confusing, shouldn't the logical approach had been to ask them of their protected status? I know I've done the same in the past for this kind of scenario.

[Rampage3]

[quote name='Vilien' date='09 March 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1268184288' post='2220127']
Their reason for not paying reps boils down to Echelon being poorly connected. That's complete !@#$%^&*. Switch this with, say, a RoK protectorate getting raided and you can sure as hell bet we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.
[/quote]

You are correct. If we felt as aggrieved as Echelon does about this the conversation we would be having would be about why we are rolling to war.

Seriously, Echelon's demeanor in our channel last night was ridiculous, and the way they attempted to threaten PC and by extension \m/, was not appreciated. THAT is why there is little patience for this, at least for my part.

I am not here to debate right and wrong. I am saying that if you go around IRC talking about reps or war, you better be ready to war. Period. If you are not prepared to war, change your attitude and try to reasonably deal with PC. Too bad that ship has pretty much sailed.

[FreddieMercury]

[quote name='Rampage3' date='10 March 2010 - 02:11 AM' timestamp='1268187403' post='2220265']
Seriously, Echelon's demeanor in our channel last night was ridiculous, and the way they attempted to threaten PC and by extension \m/, was not appreciated. THAT is why there is little patience for this, at least for my part.
[/quote]

LOL, I would post the logs but I'd have to censor so much of what you guys said it'd be a bit of a pain to read. Not to mention your love speaking in all caps.