Ok, admit it, you spent the last few weeks watching Olympic Curling

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='Proko' date='09 March 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1268183865' post='2220111']
yo PC, according to the Wiki all of your treaties are canceled. I am not going to ask you to verify whether this is true.
[/quote]

I bet if someone really did that, it wouldn't take PC several months to fix it.

[cookavich]

[quote name='LegendoftheSkies' date='09 March 2010 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1268183933' post='2220113']
Well your wiki page doesn't have a notice saying that you disbanded/merged. You're also a relatively well-known alliance and you actually post on the OWF. There's not much doubt that Creole exists as an alliance.

If SBA had really not merged into Echelon, that is a mistake Echelon should have put more effort into fixing. If someone sees a relatively inactive AA who's wiki states that they've merged, what is one to logically conclude? By waiting until someone actually sees it and decides they might make a nice raid target before actually getting around to fixing it, Echelon has done a disservice to their protectorate.
[/quote]Blaming this on Echelon, eh? That's right, honey, it's your fault I beat you!

[Lord Brendan]

The wife beater analogy always comes up.

[welshgazza1992]

[quote name='Vilien' date='10 March 2010 - 01:13 AM' timestamp='1268183912' post='2220112']
"Do something about it" as a justification for flagrant attacks on an established alliance? How tired.
[/quote]

No, PC have given their just reason for not paying reps.
Echelon is still complaining, that's why they should "do something about it".

[Vilien]

[quote name='welshgazza1992' date='09 March 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1268184211' post='2220125']
No, PC have given their just reason for not paying reps.
Echelon is still complaining, that's why they should "do something about it".
[/quote]
Their reason for not paying reps boils down to Echelon being poorly connected. That's complete !@#$%^&*. Switch this with, say, a RoK protectorate getting raided and you can sure as hell bet we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Duckz3' date='09 March 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1268184031' post='2220118']
All Caffine can do is Kick ban you from their channel because you use common sense and logic. He will also post pictures repeatably and that paste bin. Its not worth, it I hope Echelon gets rolled.

Love,
Josshill
[/quote]

Common sense and logic is something that PC does not have nor use. If they did this incident never would have happened.

Edited March 10, 2010 by AirMe

[Earogema]

[quote name='Vilien' date='09 March 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1268183912' post='2220112']
"Do something about it" as a justification for flagrant attacks on an established alliance? How tired.
[/quote]

I'd argue that making this a 40 page thread over something that WILL NOT HAPPEN is even more tired. In fact, we save plenty of time this way.

[Gerald Meanĕ]

[quote name='Vilien' date='10 March 2010 - 01:13 AM' timestamp='1268183912' post='2220112']
"Do something about it" as a justification for flagrant attacks on an established alliance? How tired.
[/quote]

Considering that echelon has given an ultimatum of reps or war, and know pc won't be paying reps I'd say that it has a little bit more merit to it then telling an uninvolved party to do something about it. That being said regardless of the outcome we here at \m/ will be supporting our allies if it comes down to war.

[OldSelf]

Thanks to an un-named alliance for constant pointless sidetracking.

Hasn't Poison Clan been involved in a raid on SBA with protectorate suprises in past years? the least they could have done is checked on IRC.

The wiki is a convenient [i]excuse[/i]; A glance at raid targets would have shown the need for clarification.

Edited March 10, 2010 by The Iggy

[Alekhine]

If you aren't in a position to back up your protection, that's tough. That's the way things have been, its the way things will continue to be. Dislike it if you will, doesn't change the facts that if you can't actually protect who you say you will, that people may not respect it.

[cookavich]

[quote name='welshgazza1992' date='09 March 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1268184211' post='2220125']
No, PC have given their just reason for not paying reps.
Echelon is still complaining, that's why they should "do something about it".
[/quote]Their just reason? There's no justice in their reasoning.

[Vilien]

[quote name='Earogema' date='09 March 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1268184345' post='2220130']
I'd argue that making this a 40 page thread over something that WILL NOT HAPPEN is even more tired. In fact, we save plenty of time this way.
[/quote]
This doesn't bother you at all? You of all people?

[quote name='Gerald Meane' date='09 March 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1268184351' post='2220131']
Considering that echelon has given an ultimatum of reps or war, and know pc won't be paying reps I'd say that it has a little bit more merit to it then telling an uninvolved party to do something about it. That being said regardless of the outcome we here at \m/ will be supporting our allies if it comes down to war.
[/quote]
Thanks for the information.

[Caffine]

I'd like to note that the OP states that it wasn't months, but less than a month

[quote]While we generally try to keep our own wiki updated, and occasionally check up on the wikis of our allies, please note the date that Lol pie made the change - February 6. On February 6, Echelon was engaged in war which lasted until February 18. Poison Clan attacked SBA on February 28, 10 days later. During those 10 days, Echelon was consumed with assessing war damages, rebuilding, and transitioning from a state of war to a state of rearmament.[/quote]

[Virillus]

[quote name='Earogema' date='09 March 2010 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1268183421' post='2220094']
I'm saying that if even he was confused, then a foreign entity like PC would obviously be confused.
[/quote]

Sure, that's fair, even understandable.

At the end of the day though, most people would say that even if you're confused, you're still liable for the mistakes you made. Ignorance and confusion do not make excuses.

But then again, if people can get away with bullying, then they'll do it: it's a shame.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Virillus

[Lord Brendan]

This topic doesn't seem very neutral to me.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Vilien' date='09 March 2010 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1268184288' post='2220127']
Their reason for not paying reps boils down to Echelon being poorly connected. That's complete !@#$%^&*. Switch this with, say, a RoK protectorate getting raided and you can sure as hell bet we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.
[/quote]
Echelon tried to lobby support prior to this thread. They alienated a bunch of people in this manner.

It's not just because they aren't well connected. They seem to be idiots at FA.

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='cookavich' date='09 March 2010 - 08:17 PM' timestamp='1268184152' post='2220123']
Blaming this on Echelon, eh? That's right, honey, it's your fault I beat you!
[/quote]

Using flawed analogies to cover up Echelon's $%&@ up, eh?

[lonewolfe2015]

[quote name='Alekhine' date='09 March 2010 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1268184406' post='2220134']
If you aren't in a position to back up your protection, that's tough. That's the way things have been, its the way things will continue to be. Dislike it if you will, doesn't change the facts that if you can't actually protect who you say you will, that people may not respect it.
[/quote]

Trouble is, that protectorate agreement was signed back when Echelon had the strength to do something about it. So in this case, do you change protectors because your protector took a couple of beatings and you're friends with them so the politics aren't what bothers you?

I'm still interested in this response though, and that if a larger alliance openly raids a protectorate and the protector can't defend against that large of an alliance, is it considered just? Because barring the wiki problem found here, that's what went on. I'd like to know if anyone in SBA had marked protection from Echelon prior to the raids, I know my guys took screenshots to verify it was never there before doing a raid in the past that had poorly marked protectorate status.

[Thomas Jackson]

[quote name='Caffine1' date='09 March 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1268184468' post='2220137']
I'd like to note that the OP states that it wasn't months, but less than a month
[/quote]
I'd like to remind you that you still aren't getting any reps.

[Kim Jaym Il]

[quote name='Alekhine' date='09 March 2010 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1268184406' post='2220134']
If you aren't in a position to back up your protection, that's tough. That's the way things have been, its the way things will continue to be. Dislike it if you will, doesn't change the facts that if you can't actually protect who you say you will, that people may not respect it.
[/quote]

That doesn't justify it however, and if it were the case, we could all just attack the alliances that had just peaced out of the last war simply because they weren't connected enough, right?

[Earogema]

[quote name='Vilien' date='09 March 2010 - 07:21 PM' timestamp='1268184434' post='2220136']
This doesn't bother you at all? You of all people?
[/quote]
It does, but tbh, this is the third time that this thread (or a similar one) has happened. I'm all for argumentation, but when the side will repeat the same things over and over I eventually get burned out. PC are my allies. They came to my defense no questions asked. Polar attacked us, that next night they were there. We didn't have to convince them of anything. TMF did the same for TORN. I will do the same for PC.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Earogema

[Vilien]

[quote name='Earogema' date='09 March 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1268184542' post='2220140']
It's not just because they aren't well connected. They seem to be idiots at FA.
[/quote]
I never argued that Echelon was a competent alliance. I wouldn't even dream of saying something that ridiculous. However, attacking a protected alliance and refusing to pay reparations is pretty tasteless whether or not their protectors are incompetent.

[Neo Uruk]

When you say you only want 50 million, is that before or after the demand of 210 million or war?

Sorry if this has been covered, but oh well.

[President S O]

[quote name='Kryievla' date='10 March 2010 - 09:38 AM' timestamp='1268178233' post='2219847']
Why not?
[/quote]

Because it makes their friends look bad, we can't have that now.

Seriously, pay the reps, over and done with. It was your bad, so fix it.

[AirMe]

[quote name='Virillus' date='09 March 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1268184495' post='2220138']
Sure, that's fair, even understandable.

At the end of the day though, most people would say that even if you're confused, you're still liable for the mistakes you made. Ignorance and confusion do not make excuses.

But then again, if people can get away with bullying, then they'll do it: it's a shame.
[/quote]

Ignorance has never been a valid excuse on this planet and never will.