Ruggerdawg

[quote name='peron' date='21 March 2010 - 08:25 PM' timestamp='1269231904' post='2232893']I officially declare war on the entity known as "Real Life." Whose with me?[/quote] In my time at both NADC and Echelon, I've attempted to fight off this vicious real world monster. I've yet to win and several of my friends have fallen victim. Godspeed. *grin* Congrats on your presidency. o7 IRON

Happy Birthday

[quote name='Derwood1' date='11 March 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1268364483' post='2222858'] 1. We will be contacting SBA directly to work out Reparations to help them rebuild. [/quote] Good to hear. [quote name='Derwood1' date='11 March 2010 - 07:22 PM' timestamp='1268364483' post='2222858']3. ...The fact that it took several days for us to speak to real Echelon leadership is absolutely ridiculous.[/quote] It's unfortunate you didn't accept on face value my authority to negotiate on Echelon's behalf. As Prime Minister, it's perfectly within "my office." I was involved in the recent settlement with MHA in the las war. Just ask Pudge.

[quote name='Tick1' date='11 March 2010 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1268329499' post='2222251']I'll go off of my own prior knowledge that Poison Clan thinks you are using this as an attempt to extort money from them.[/quote] If Echelon were trying to extort PC, why would be asking for [i]less than the amount of damages[/i], and why would we be asking that the money only go to the [i][b]affected nations[/b][/i]? This is restitution, not extorting. Now, if the damages caused to SBA were $50mil and Echelon was demanding $200mil, that would be a little closer to extortion. But the damages are $212mil and Echelon is asking that SBA be compensated with $50mil. [quote name='Tick1' date='11 March 2010 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1268329499' post='2222251']If the merger didn't take place why would the Wiki have stated that it did take place?[/quote] Anyone can edit a wiki and unfortunately that is what has happened here. [quote name='Tick1' date='11 March 2010 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1268329499' post='2222251']Also when did the first raid take place? The one where SouthernComfort stated he'd not raid again.[/quote] Again, information found [i][b]in this thread[/b][/i]. SouthernComfort raided in July 2009. At that time, he said he would not raid again. He did raid again, February 2010.

[quote name='Tick1' date='11 March 2010 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1268328665' post='2222237'] That's generally not a true statement, said alliances are generally only protected for a short period of time when they merge. [/quote] Every alliance handles this differently. But if an alliance wants to protect the AA for six months, fine. But, that's not really the point. SBA didn't merge. Though even if they had merged, the next thought in one's mind should be, "Oh, protected AA?" and then go talk to the alliance which remained post-merger (in this instance, that would be Echelon). [quote name='Tick1' date='11 March 2010 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1268328665' post='2222237']If it's the third time Poison Clan has raided Echelon then why are the just now requesting reparations?[/quote] Again, this was addressed (not in the OP, but in the thread). The raided nation did not provide battle reports, so it was impossible to calculate damages. The raider (SouthernComfort) agreed he would not raid again. (And just to let you know, it was SouthernComfort that was involved in this most recent raid.)

[quote name='Tick1' date='11 March 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1268328085' post='2222219']All existing treaties are considered null after an alliance merges into you, right? [/quote] Actually, what I know is that when alliances merge, the AAs are protected. So even if SBA did merge into alliance, the SBA AA would be under Echelon's protection. So again, PC raided a protected AA. [quote name='Tick1' date='11 March 2010 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1268328085' post='2222219']Anyhow in your OP didn't you state that Dark Templar and Poison Clan raided these nations?[/quote] The OP did not mention DT, but it did mention that this is the [i][b]third[/b][/i] time PC raided that alliance.

[quote name='Tick1' date='11 March 2010 - 09:05 AM' timestamp='1268327476' post='2222208'] Anyhow pardon my ignorance, I didn't know that 50 million was offered and I didn't read the thread as I stated. [/quote] Information regarding the offer of $50mil to settle was in the OP. I realize the OP was rather lengthy, but if you aren't going to bother to read it, then [i][b]wtf[/b][/i] are you doing posting in this thread? You're PC, I get that you're going to support your alliance, but at least familiarize yourself with the facts and the history of this situation.

[quote name='extraduty' date='10 March 2010 - 06:48 AM' timestamp='1268232855' post='2220916'] And the last post on that forum was in October. I can provide links to old forums of disbanded alliances too that have treaties listed. That doesn't prove anything. [/quote] The last [b][i]public[/i][/b] link is dated October. If you had a member mask, you'd see more recent posts.

[quote name='Stilgar' date='09 March 2010 - 11:49 PM' timestamp='1268207707' post='2220759'] Not necessarily. Alliances often, if not always, protect members who remain on the AA of the alliance merging into them. The duration of this protection is an arbitrary one, and it could be anywhere from one day to one decade (though it's usually around 1-3 weeks I think). It is not justifiable to assume that any remnant are open for raiding as they can still be under terms of protection [/quote] Had SBA merged into Echelon ([i]this is a hypothetical scenario[/i]), the SBA AA would have been protected. Some in CN say that AAs are not protected indefinitely, but there are no hard and fast rules against this. So, even if the information regarding the merger had been correct, it still should have triggered a conversation with Echelon. I'm sorry I keep repeating myself, but a quick, 60 second conversation with Echelon could have avoided this whole issue.

[quote name='kriekfreak' date='09 March 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1268207414' post='2220754'] Although I think that PC could have invested a little more time to check if they were still protected by Echelon or not[/quote] The moment the topic came up with a former SBA member, "so...Echelon..." it should have been a clue to go to Echelon (specifically, #echelon and ask for Gov). The fact that they asked [i]someone[/i] is moving in the right direction. The key is they should have asked the [b][i]right[/i][/b] someone. Half effort for half information.

[quote name='Caliph' date='09 March 2010 - 07:09 PM' timestamp='1268190893' post='2220406'] The facts are this: PC raided someone they thought was a disbanded alliance. Echelon has evidence supporting they not, indeed, a disbanded alliance. The mistake for this is Echelon's. [/quote] Logic fail. You just made an argument for why PC owes reps. According to your own charter: [quote]Poison Clan Raid Rules 8.) In the event that a person raids a protected or treatied alliance by mistake, they will lose their raid privileges for the next thirty (30) days, and will pay reparations to compensate for the damage done.[/quote]

[quote name='Caliph' date='09 March 2010 - 08:07 PM' timestamp='1268194391' post='2220507'] The raid is over, and all that is preventing us all from moving on are Echelon threats of war if they do not get reps from PC. PC is not paying Echelon. [/quote] We don't want PC to pay Echelon. How many times do I need to say that? We want PC to compensate the raided SBA nations. At least pay them back the looted money and tech that was gained. That wouldn't be too difficult, would it?

[quote name='Vilien' date='09 March 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1268184288' post='2220127'] Their reason for not paying reps boils down to Echelon being poorly connected. That's complete !@#$%^&*. Switch this with, say, a RoK protectorate getting raided and you can sure as hell bet we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. [/quote] [quote name='Gerald Meane' date='09 March 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1268184351' post='2220131']That being said regardless of the outcome we here at \m/ will be supporting our allies if it comes down to war.[/quote] Yes, if this were not Echelon, but say RoK, and all of the remaining facts were the same, there would be no standoff. So essentially, these protectorates only apply when you have the might to back them up. That's unfortunate, but I suppose that's the way of things. As mentioned, Echelon had the might to to back this up when the protectorate was signed. It doesn't change the fact that PC still raided a protected alliance and should have known better. [quote name='Rey the Great' date='09 March 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1268184696' post='2220150']When you say you only want 50 million, is that before or after the demand of 210 million or war?[/quote] Echelon only wants restitution for the nations that were raided. We also would liked this to resolve quickly so we can all go about our usual business. Logistically, getting $50mil to 3 nations is easier and quicker than getting $200mil to the same 3 nations.

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='09 March 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1268183299' post='2220087'] After you realize that the wiki stated they merged into you. That's kind of your cue, you know, to go out and correct the mistake and prevent a situation like this from arising. [/quote] Then allow this to be the SIXTH reference that SBA is a protectorate of Echelon. Information regarding the protection of SBA by Echelon can be found in the following locations: [list][*][url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Spacebattles.com_Alliance]SBA's wiki[/url] [*][url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Echelon]Echelon's wiki - Echelon Treaties[/url] [*][url=http://sba.egzodus.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.0][b]SBA Forums - SBA Treaty List[/b][/url] [*][url=http://www.cn-echelon.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12526][b]Echelon Forums - Echelon's Treaties[/b][/url] [*]The bios of several SBA nations. [*]THIS POST. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=82415&view=findpost&p=2220107[/list] Edit: link

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='09 March 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1268182955' post='2220067'] Yes actually, fix the argument and repost. [/quote] There's nothing to fix. SBA never disbanded. A quick visit to their forum would provide all the evidence necessary for that conclusion. PC, did you ever visit their forum? If you had, you'd have seen that it was current and being used to conduct their official alliance business. Typically, alliances that no longer exist or disband do not maintain these forums.