Ok, admit it, you spent the last few weeks watching Olympic Curling

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Prime minister Johns' date='09 March 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1268180224' post='2219939']
All the rules about tech raiding effectively boil down to this.

Rule 1: There are no rules.

Rules get broken so often that there are effectively no rules.
[/quote]

Thank you for this.

[Hymenbreach]

I've suggested to both sides (via senior members on irc) a way that they can both walk away from this with some face. It only takes a brief swallowing of pride and the peanut gallery will forget this in a week.

Or you can go for war and all the fun of the fair.

[Ruggerdawg]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='09 March 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1268182955' post='2220067']
Yes actually, fix the argument and repost.
[/quote]
There's nothing to fix. SBA never disbanded. A quick visit to their forum would provide all the evidence necessary for that conclusion.

PC, did you ever visit their forum? If you had, you'd have seen that it was current and being used to conduct their official alliance business. Typically, alliances that no longer exist or disband do not maintain these forums.

[Thomas Jackson]

[quote name='Ruggerdawg' date='09 March 2010 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1268182819' post='2220058']
How frequently ought an alliance re-announce their protectorate agreements? Monthly, weekly, daily?

Because Echelon was once a protector and is currently a protector, and there is no change in status of SBA, there is nothing to announce. The SBA of today is still the SBA before the discussed merger. Albeit a little lighter of members. But still a sovereign alliance nonetheless. Echelon and/or SBA would have made an OWF post announcing a disbandment and/or merger, but since neither occurred, no announcement of any kind was warranted.

FYI, United Domainers is a protectorate of Echelon. They always have been and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

Would you like me to re-post this declaration tomorrow?

Edit: spelling
[/quote]
If the mere existence of an alliance comes into doubt, it's probably a good idea to reiterate that you are still protecting them. [i]Probably.[/i] I'm not going to tell you how to run your alliance.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' date='09 March 2010 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1268183108' post='2220074']
I've suggested to both sides (via senior members on irc) a way that they can both walk away from this with some face. It only takes a brief swallowing of pride and the peanut gallery will forget this in a week.

Or you can go for war and all the fun of the fair.
[/quote]
We never forget, and regularly cite these events over and over again once the next major dispute involving the involved alliances comes up.

[Jyrinx]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='09 March 2010 - 07:48 PM' timestamp='1268182398' post='2220029']
It appears I'm just a little late to the party. Well, I'll go ahead and make myself comfortable and get to the festivities. This won't take long, and should be pretty short and to the point;

You claim Poison Clan is "guilty of the same thing [you have] done" by not updating their wiki. Except there's a minor flaw with that statement. A copy of their treaty is posted on their forums. Has been since they announced it originally. Between Echelon and SBA, this was not the case. You can't claim to be in the right and PC in the wrong just because their wiki wasn't 100% accurate because they had still posted the information in 2 very public places. For one, the Open World Forum and two, the treaty archive they have open to all Foreigners on their Forums. Echelon didn't post the protectorate they had with SBA until March, after the raids had already taken place. And on top of that, you didn't revise the wiki of SBA to reflect that they were under your protection until around that same time too. You admitted to your mistake, provided anyone ever believed you were still legitimately protecting SBA, but instead of dealing with the humiliation of giving off the appearance of a severely inept alliance that you are you decided you were going to try to extort reparations from Poison Clan for it.

Poison Clan doesn't have to pay for your own incompetence. Their members followed their rules and did as instructed by their government. You made the mistake of neglecting your responsibilities as Government officials of your alliances by not keeping pertinent information in a location that was easily and publicly accessible for those who were curious. You also failed to properly communicate to the world publicly that SBA was still under your protection and a sovereign alliance after the supposed merger. [b]The blame for this entire situation lies on Echelon so why should Poison Clan have to pay for your mistakes?[/b] Well, I don't think they owe you the crust out of their cracks. SBA had been considered disbanded even by their own leader. Whatever you told him to "rescind" his confirmation of that disbandment must have been financially rewarding, or perhaps backed with the threat of force you've exhibited towards Poison Clan in this situation.

If you think you can intimidate Poison Clan to bowing to your petty demands of compensation for your own incompetence I can guarantee you that Poison Clan won't be the only entity you'll have the pleasure of getting eradicated by. Either put up or shut up, Echelon. I'll be waiting.
[/quote]

SBA claims that it was always on their forums, and Echelon says it was always on theirs. I consider that to be sufficient to be honest. And PC should pay reparations because PC raided a protected alliance. PC can claim they didn't know, and maybe they didn't. But that doesn't change the fact that PC raided a protected alliance.

Alliances have no responsibility to post their treaties on OWF. Créole's protectorate with NpO is only on our forums and Polar's. Someone has also been kind enough to keep our wiki updated, but are you seriously telling me that if our wiki was out of date you wouldn't consider our protectorate with Polar to be valid? That's ridiculous. The onus is on the raiding party to figure out what treaties an alliance has before raiding. If that's really hard sometimes, then tough.

Also even if you disagree with it, you can hardly call asking for reparations after a raid extortion.

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='Ruggerdawg' date='09 March 2010 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1268182819' post='2220058']
FYI, United Domainers is a protectorate of Echelon. They always have been and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.
[/quote]

brb raiding.


[quote name='supercoolyellow' date='09 March 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1268182732' post='2220052']
I can't blame echelon for taking this to the OWF. There's not much else they could do tbh.
[/quote]

They could realize that PC is not going to be paying reps and that making a gigantic rant on the OWF is only going to be a waste of time and get them trolled.

As Kev has stated, PC will not pay reps. Everyone who likes Poison Clan will still like Poison Clan. Anyone who would hate them for this probably already hates them anyway. Begging for support on the OWF that will only come in the forum of indignant posts that PC will promptly ignore just makes them look pitiful.

[Virillus]

[quote name='Earogema' date='09 March 2010 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1268182995' post='2220069']
That's not the point. Peregrine was the ONLY signatory to this treaty for SBA. SBA is also a very small alliance, and has always been. He would know if they treaty was intact. In fact, if I asked a former TSO member if they had a treaty with IRON, they would know to say "No, they don't."
[/quote]

So you're saying that because a former member lied/was wrong, then all bets are off and SBA is left out to dry? I'll keep that in mind if I ever want to sink a former alliance of mine.

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Ruggerdawg' date='09 March 2010 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1268182819' post='2220058']
[b]How frequently ought an alliance re-announce their protectorate agreements? Monthly, weekly, daily?[/b]

Because Echelon was once a protector and is currently a protector, and there is no change in status of SBA, there is nothing to announce. The SBA of today is still the SBA before the discussed merger. Albeit a little lighter of members. But still a sovereign alliance nonetheless. Echelon and/or SBA would have made an OWF post announcing a disbandment and/or merger, but since neither occurred, no announcement of any kind was warranted.
[/quote]

After you realize that the wiki stated they merged into you. That's kind of your cue, you know, to go out and correct the mistake and prevent a situation like this from arising.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Virillus' date='09 March 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1268183293' post='2220086']
So you're saying that because a former member lied/was wrong, then all bets are off and SBA is left out to dry? I'll keep that in mind if I ever want to sink a former alliance of mine.
[/quote]
I'm saying that if even he was confused, then a foreign entity like PC would obviously be confused.

[Baldr]

[quote]The treaty is signed by only one person from SBA (as noted by the post on the forums by William Bonney) and that person is no longer a member of SBA.[/quote]

OOC, Real World Analagy :

Every person that signed the US Declaration of Independence is now dead. Dead, buried, gone. Worm food. No longer alive. Pushing up daisy's. Future Fossil Fuel. Picking turnips with a stepladder. They bought the farm, cashed in their chips, and kicked the bucket. They are on the ultimate weight loss diet.

And yet the US is still independent, and did not magically revert to British rule.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Baldr' date='09 March 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1268183474' post='2220095']
OOC, Real World Analagy :

Every person that signed the US Declaration of Independence is now dead. Dead, buried, gone. Worm food. No longer alive. Pushing up daisy's. Future Fossil Fuel. Picking turnips with a stepladder. They bought the farm, cashed in their chips, and kicked the bucket. They are on the ultimate weight loss diet.

And yet the US is still independent, and did not magically revert to British rule.
[/quote]

And now we've gone to "real world analogies". I'm done.

[Earogema]

[quote name='Baldr' date='09 March 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1268183474' post='2220095']
OOC, Real World Analagy :

Every person that signed the US Declaration of Independence is now dead. Dead, buried, gone. Worm food. No longer alive. Pushing up daisy's. Future Fossil Fuel. Picking turnips with a stepladder. They bought the farm, cashed in their chips, and kicked the bucket. They are on the ultimate weight loss diet.

And yet the US is still independent, and did not magically revert to British rule.
[/quote]
OOC: Real world analogy

George Bush is well aware of the U.S.'s current ties to the world.

IC: Come on now.

[AirMe]

PC needs to use some common sense. People don't always keep their wiki up to date. I think Ronin's still says Caffine is DoFA. 2nd, if the AA exists and their wiki says they used to have a protectorate with Echelon, common sense says to go ask Echelon because usually when an alliance merges the AA gets protected anywhere from 30 days to forever.

For me the highlight of the logs were when PC claimed that the AA wasn't valid because Admin said we couldn't use acronyms for our AA's. That's a first class tactic.

Pay SBA their reps PC. Echelon is right in this case.

Shame on those who are hating on this announcement just because it is Echelon. If it were your allies in this position you would be up in arms.

I hope PC gets their due here.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Ruggerdawg' date='10 March 2010 - 01:00 AM' timestamp='1268183140' post='2220076']
There's nothing to fix. SBA never disbanded. A quick visit to their forum would provide all the evidence necessary for that conclusion.

[/quote]

I was semi jokingly referring to my grade breakdown of your brief 2 pages back

In truth though I was serious about the final deduction. An inference based upon an inference does not support a conclusion, and the argument would be much better made based on traditional notions of fairness and equity. Here, your just not on firm enough ground as there is a serious dispute over material facts. Going off the suggested argument though, the basic fact upon which your argument would be predicated would not be in dispute (i.e. you have friends that were raided), and as such the argument itself all around better. That way, your opposing side would be forced into having no other objection aside from "so what?". In turn, you could then point to the multitude of prior outcry over raiding, etc.

Edited March 10, 2010 by Il Impero Romano

[welshgazza1992]

Echelon, it's been said already. Put up, or shut up.

(also, Kait's demeanour is still cute. [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif[/img])

[Earogema]

[quote name='AirMe' date='09 March 2010 - 07:08 PM' timestamp='1268183633' post='2220100']
PC needs to use some common sense. People don't always keep their wiki up to date. I think Ronin's still says Caffine is DoFA. 2nd, if the AA exists and their wiki says they used to have a protectorate with Echelon, common sense says to go ask Echelon because usually when an alliance merges the AA gets protected anywhere from 30 days to forever.

For me the highlight of the logs were when PC claimed that the AA wasn't valid because Admin said we couldn't use acronyms for our AA's. That's a first class tactic.

Pay SBA their reps PC. Echelon is right in this case.

Shame on those who are hating on this announcement just because it is Echelon. If it were your allies in this position you would be up in arms.

I hope PC gets their due here.
[/quote]
I'm hating on this announcement precisely because it is against my ally.

[Ruggerdawg]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' date='09 March 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1268183299' post='2220087']
After you realize that the wiki stated they merged into you. That's kind of your cue, you know, to go out and correct the mistake and prevent a situation like this from arising.
[/quote]
Then allow this to be the SIXTH reference that SBA is a protectorate of Echelon.

Information regarding the protection of SBA by Echelon can be found in the following locations:

[list][*][url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Spacebattles.com_Alliance]SBA's wiki[/url]
[*][url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Echelon]Echelon's wiki - Echelon Treaties[/url]
[*][url=http://sba.egzodus.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.0][b]SBA Forums - SBA Treaty List[/b][/url]
[*][url=http://www.cn-echelon.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12526][b]Echelon Forums - Echelon's Treaties[/b][/url]
[*]The bios of several SBA nations.
[*]THIS POST. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=82415&view=findpost&p=2220107[/list]



Edit: link

Edited March 10, 2010 by Ruggerdawg

[cookavich]

Echelon seems to be in the right. The Wiki is not the be all end all for information on alliances. People vandalize it, give inaccurate information, or just plain don't update it. Just do what you would say you would do in this situation, PC, and pay reps.

[Proko]

yo PC, according to the Wiki all of your treaties are canceled. I am not going to ask you to verify whether this is true.

[Vilien]

[quote name='welshgazza1992' date='09 March 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1268183738' post='2220104']
Echelon, it's been said already. Put up, or shut up.

(also, Kait's demeanour is still cute. [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif[/img])
[/quote]
"Do something about it" as a justification for flagrant attacks on an established alliance? How tired.

[LegendoftheSkies]

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='09 March 2010 - 08:01 PM' timestamp='1268183180' post='2220080']
Alliances have no responsibility to post their treaties on OWF. Créole's protectorate with NpO is only on our forums and Polar's. Someone has also been kind enough to keep our wiki updated, but are you seriously telling me that if our wiki was out of date you wouldn't consider our protectorate with Polar to be valid?
[/quote]

Well your wiki page doesn't have a notice saying that you disbanded/merged. You're also a relatively well-known alliance and you actually post on the OWF. There's not much doubt that Creole exists as an alliance.

If SBA had really not merged into Echelon, that is a mistake Echelon should have put more effort into fixing. If someone sees a relatively inactive AA who's wiki states that they've merged, what is one to logically conclude? By waiting until someone actually sees it and decides they might make a nice raid target before actually getting around to fixing it, Echelon has done a disservice to their protectorate.

[Remaliat]

My how tech raiders have become lazy, seriously... trusting a wiki? There is a reason that no reputable professor lets you cite any form of wiki

[Duckz3]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' date='09 March 2010 - 04:56 PM' timestamp='1268182898' post='2220064']
:siren: We're headed for a cyclical counterproductive argument.
[/quote]
All Caffine can do is Kick ban you from their channel because you use common sense and logic. He will also post pictures repeatably and that paste bin. Its not worth, it I hope Echelon gets rolled.

Love,
Josshill

[Thomas Jackson]

[quote name='Proko' date='09 March 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1268183865' post='2220111']
yo PC, according to the Wiki all of your treaties are canceled. I am not going to ask you to verify whether this is true.
[/quote]
And thus began the great Wiki-Vandalizing Craze of 2010.