Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[SpiderJerusalem]

[quote name='Methrage' date='02 February 2010 - 09:37 AM' timestamp='1265103438' post='2152883']
Interesting that you would believe your treaty with NpO would give all your allies a free pass to attack NpO's allies without retaliation. Some support your giving NpO when you're completely disregarding their treaty commitments, why should they care about yours?
[/quote]

Please, read what I actually wrote one more time.

First of all, Ragnarok is not yet involved in this war.

Second, it is a difference between our allies attacking Polars allies and Polar attacking our allies, or us attacking Polars allies for that matter. It is one less degree of separation.

Third, where the hell did I say that my allies have a free pass? I have been pretty mad at several of them because of the way they have handled this

Fourth, I have been nothing but respectful towards Polar this entire time, and I expressed sadness that they attacked an MDoAP partner of [i]their[/i] ally for the second time in 2 weeks. GOD on the other hand did not attack an ally of an ally

Fifth, really, you suck at reading comprehension and your argumentation is flawed

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Methrage' date='02 February 2010 - 09:37 AM' timestamp='1265103438' post='2152883']
Interesting that you would believe your treaty with NpO would give all your allies a free pass to attack NpO's allies without retaliation. Some support your giving NpO when you're completely disregarding their treaty commitments, why should they care about yours?
[/quote]
Both \m/ and NpO hold MDoAP treaties with RoK. NpO dow'd on \m/ making NpO the agressor, it can be successfully argued RoK should have defended us against agression (no we didn't ask or expect) but RoK stepped aside and let NpO wail on us, what more do you want?

[Krack]

Let's all look on the bright side ... at least we don't have to treat this fiasco like it's two different wars anymore. It's now quite obviously one singular War of Incredibly Bad Decisions.

[CylonNL]

[quote name='Timmehhh' date='02 February 2010 - 03:42 AM' timestamp='1265103769' post='2152889']
Good, this means we are back too
[/quote]

You warmongler!
Those Dutch are a barbaric bunch.

I think Polaris will be pleased with that.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='02 February 2010 - 03:40 AM' timestamp='1265103653' post='2152887']
No different than one of our members stupidly throwing out a racial slur and NpO declaring that \m/ is racist
[/quote]

So you're saying you intend to re-open this war regardless of comments made by regular NpO members? I'm just trying to keep up with the analogy here.

Turns out I am interested in getting cute tonight.

[Sakura]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='02 February 2010 - 01:11 AM' timestamp='1265101895' post='2152865']
So you and your ally accepted the 'unacceptable terms' and 'unreasonable demands'? What happened to grand stand and making a point?
[/quote]

The final peace terms were not the ones that caused things to spiral out of control.

[quote name='Fireandthepassion' date='02 February 2010 - 01:11 AM' timestamp='1265101905' post='2152866']
So much crap. If \m/ had not tossed a racial slur at Grub diplomacy wouldn't have failed. You can't always be cordial with diplomacy; sometimes you have to apply pressure. Grub did the right thing in regards to how he handled the \m/ situation. Grub made no unreasonable demands. \m/ charter had already had a clause recognizing the standard of the CN community and was only changed after \m/ heard the peace terms so Polar could look evil for trying to force \m/ to change their charter.
[/quote]

Diplomacy doesn't work when one side goes in saying "do what I want you to, because I tell you to as the moral authority of CN" (paraphrased).

Diplomacy doesn't work when one side says "you can't do what you want to, but I can (do what I want to)".

I doubt many realize this, but I was in the channel in question, when the incident in question occurred.

And as such, I have the *full* logs. Unaltered, uncensored, and quite unabridged.

Additionally, I have these logs because Grub "attempted diplomacy" in a *public channel*. Which isn't diplomacy, but rather, grandstanding. Especially given the *content* of said logs.

The simple, inescapable truth is *Grub* did not *want* diplomacy to work, he *wanted* to roll \m/. And, from the wording of the DOW *on* \m/, I imagine that he wanted to roll PC too.

TOP's and IRON's DOWs on CnG seem like an opportunistic strike against people they don't like -- much like Grub's DOW on \m/ seemed.

I do hope that NSO gets peace -- despite Grub's efforts to the contrary. (Because, in a sense, they're as much a victim of Grub Diplomacy as \m/ is.)

[Valerius]

[quote name='Krack' date='02 February 2010 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1265103868' post='2152892']
Let's all look on the bright side ... at least we don't have to treat this fiasco like it's two different wars anymore. It's now quite obviously one singular War of Incredibly Bad Decisions.
[/quote]
I think this guy just said it.

[SirWilliam]

Whereas one part of me is displeased with this decision (not so much that I'll lash out like my alliance mates, but displeased nonetheless), another part of me understands the compromising position you were in and your desire to defend an ally (even if I hold nothing but disdain for NSO). As allies I must wish you luck.

[quote name='Xiphosis' date='02 February 2010 - 02:46 AM' timestamp='1265096767' post='2152786']To Archon, SirWilliam, Bob and numerous other MKers whom have vouched for Polar to me over the last few months - I am sincerely sorry to see you not vilified. We've not had a wish for war with Polar until they came knocking on Athen's door some months ago, and we were willing to temper it out of respect for CnG on the whole; despite the worrying (maddening) implications of them strong-arming Athens over internal policy with, of all people, TOP's backing.

I expressed then sincere doubts that Polar remained an ally to our side, but you assured me elsewise and maintained vigorously that they continued to be solid allies. When Frostbite dissolved in TPF, I took it as validation and ate my words, but with this war Polar has systematically destroyed all faith stemming from that overture, and it gives me absolutely no pleasure to say you were wrong.[/quote]

!@#$ happens. I don't know if you expect an apology for any of us not having the foresight to know Polar would declare war on GOD at the behest of NSO in a cluster$%&@ of a series of wars, but I have none to give. But good luck, even if I know you guys will be just fine.

[Haflinger]

Yes, this is a good decision, and one unfortunately brought on by certain people who had an agenda to get white peace for [i]nearly[/i] everyone.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='02 February 2010 - 04:44 AM' timestamp='1265103857' post='2152891']
Both \m/ and NpO hold MDoAP treaties with RoK. NpO dow'd on \m/ making NpO the agressor, it can be successfully argued RoK should have defended us against agression (no we didn't ask or expect) but RoK stepped aside and let NpO wail on us, what more do you want?
[/quote]
People can stop complaining that NpO declared war here, I'm sure you wouldn't of been willing to leave PC behind in war where they come to your assistance. Same concept here.

[Venizelos]

what is this i dont even

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' date='02 February 2010 - 09:47 AM' timestamp='1265104047' post='2152894']
So you're saying you intend to re-open this war regardless of comments made by regular NpO members? I'm just trying to keep up with the analogy here.

Turns out I am interested in getting cute tonight.
[/quote]
What I am saying is taking in all the \m/ comments from various Polar members is making me reconsider the warnings we were given about trying to end this war and that the several nights of talks with Polar government and Grub specifically were performed by NpO in bad faith. If there is no real resolution to our conflict now it only stands to reason this will rear its head again, something I believe would be better to just get it on now and conclude this mess.

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='Methrage' date='02 February 2010 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1265104737' post='2152902']
People can stop complaining that NpO declared war here, I'm sure you wouldn't of been willing to leave PC behind in war where they come to your assistance. Same concept here.
[/quote]
Our leaders made sure our allies were onboard and covered before peace, a basic principle of leadership and friendship.

[lebubu]

Can't say I care anymore.

[Goose]

[quote name='Haflinger' date='02 February 2010 - 03:53 AM' timestamp='1265104428' post='2152899']
Yes, this is a good decision, and one unfortunately brought on by certain people who had an agenda to get white peace for [i]nearly[/i] everyone.
[/quote]
Please elaborate on this agenda with names and targets. You are either a coward without the courage to state the names and targets of this conspiracy, or a fool with nothing more than a slanted view on events and an axe to grind.

[PrideAssassin]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='02 February 2010 - 01:40 AM' timestamp='1265103653' post='2152887']
No different than one of our members stupidly throwing out a racial slur and NpO declaring that \m/ is racist, frankly I am getting tired of it. Seems I was a fool thinking we had moved passed this.
[/quote]
MK's home site is filled with racial slurs. Does that make them racists? No. I have yet to see MK state "No colored (or Irish, or Siberian Huskies) need apply", and I have yet to see \m/ have those restrictions. Such restrictions would be racism. Speech does not equal racism, mmmkay?
Racial slurs do not equal racism. Racism is a serious charge. Bigotry, maybe. An off beat sense of humor, maybe, but racism is a very bad thing that has a very specific definition and definitely does not encompass bigoted statements. While bigotry is a mindset racists possess, bigotry does not equal racism.
I, for one, am sick to death of seeing the term watered down and misused.
Do I have to PM Pingu to sort you folks out?

I also don't recall NpO declaring \m/ to be racists. Are you spinning gold from straw, or do you have documentation to support that claim?

[Merrie Melodies]

[quote name='PrideAssassin' date='02 February 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1265105969' post='2152913']
MK's home site is filled with racial slurs. Does that make them racists? No. I have yet to see MK state "No colored (or Irish, or Siberian Huskies) need apply", and I have yet to see \m/ have those restrictions. Such restrictions would be racism. Speech does not equal racism, mmmkay?
Racial slurs do not equal racism. Racism is a serious charge. Bigotry, maybe. An off beat sense of humor, maybe, but racism is a very bad thing that has a very specific definition and definitely does not encompass bigoted statements. While bigotry is a mindset racists possess, bigotry does not equal racism.
I, for one, am sick to death of seeing the term watered down and misused.
Do I have to PM Pingu to sort you folks out?

I also don't recall NpO declaring \m/ to be racists. Are you spinning gold from straw, or do you have documentation to support that claim?
[/quote]
When I feel a bit more motivated I'll dig through the filth of the last 2 weeks and complie a list for you.

[PrideAssassin]

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='02 February 2010 - 02:24 AM' timestamp='1265106241' post='2152915']
When I feel a bit more motivated I'll dig through the filth of the last 2 weeks and complie a list for you.
[/quote]
Fair enough. It's really basic English 101.
I never saw the claim in public though. People, unfortunately, are offended to violence over bigoted statements. Building bridges>blowing them up. Speech should never be suppressed, imho. Countered with logic and reason, certainly. Exterminated? Never.

For the record, these are my personal views.
It's not what people call you, it's what you answer to. Bernie Mac had a great story which I cannot repeat here for fear of being banned.
Sad (police)state of affairs when you can't convey a message because of a simple word.

Edited February 2, 2010 by PrideAssassin

[Banksy]

You did what you felt was best I guess.

o/ Polaris etc

[Starfox101]

[quote name='PrideAssassin' date='02 February 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1265105969' post='2152913']
I also don't recall NpO declaring \m/ to be racists. Are you spinning gold from straw, or do you have documentation to support that claim?
[/quote]
I hope you're joking. This was a terrible challenge to throw at him, when the Polar emperor referred to us as racist nerds essentially.

[arentak]

o/ NpO

Thanks for not hanging us out to dry. Good luck in your wars!

[Micheal Malone]

[quote name='D34th' date='01 February 2010 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1265097409' post='2152809']
What's the difference of NSO redeclare agains FARK? They already stated that they did it to not oblige their allies in Terra Cota to defend them



What possessed us? NSO are allied with us, you guys attacked them and then do not gave peace to them when our war ended, need more explanation?



All I can read here is: See Mk we are better friends than NpO please cancel on them and be only friends with us.

Do you really need that to get friends? lol
[/quote]
That's funny... I read his quote as someone saddened by the situation. It's something akin to having to tell your bestfriend that their spouse has been lying to them and cheating on them. Not something you enjoy doing (usually, lol), yet something that you feel you have to say.


[quote name='Methrage' date='02 February 2010 - 01:37 AM' timestamp='1265103438' post='2152883']
Interesting that you would believe your treaty with NpO would give all your allies a free pass to attack NpO's allies without retaliation. Some support your giving NpO when you're completely disregarding their treaty commitments, why should they care about yours?
[/quote]
[quote name='Methrage' date='02 February 2010 - 01:58 AM' timestamp='1265104737' post='2152902']
People can stop complaining that NpO declared war here, I'm sure you wouldn't of been willing to leave PC behind in war where they come to your assistance. Same concept here.
[/quote]
On this... I'm not sure what to say. If I'm misinterpreting immediate history, Polar declared war on one of their allies ally. That move, combined with the arrogance and obvious uncouth posting of both sides alienated/severed those ties for most people it seemed. Polar then secures peace, ending hostilities for \m/, PC, FOK! and itself. In the unprecedented speed, and once again lack of foresight for his allies, Grub managed to alienate/anger even MORE of his allies. Polar DID leave the Sith behind in war.

I agree with the statement earlier in this thread. While I don't agree with Polar's choice in defense of NSO's [i]aggressive[/i] war declaration over other [i]defensive[/i] war declarations, it's logical that Polar made this choice. The treaty between MK and Polar appears dead to both parties and only words on a paper at this point (with exceptions of course). While they are attempting to salvage relationship with another ally who had begun to doubt them. They could have attempted to obtain peace for NSO in another fashion, but entering the war again that was a symptom of their own actions, is... understandable. A bit hindsighted to re-enter instead of staying the course to begin with, but a proper move in an attempt to reaffirm their bond with NSO.

[mdnss69]

o/ Polaris

For fearing something else when I saw this topic, I apologise. Go get 'em!

[PrideAssassin]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='02 February 2010 - 02:29 AM' timestamp='1265106564' post='2152920']
I hope you're joking. This was a terrible challenge to throw at him, when the Polar emperor referred to us as racist nerds essentially.
[/quote]
I saw no public accusation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I will never support a CB over thought or bad humor, I will respect one over actions. But I still respect Grub for walking his talk. If he told you to stop and you persisted in his home, then open disrespect is definitely a valid CB. Simply put, if you are not welcome in my home, GTFO or suffer the consequences.

I simply wish language were not so heavily policed. Acions? Certainly. Language? Never.

Edited February 2, 2010 by PrideAssassin

[Starfox101]

[quote name='PrideAssassin' date='02 February 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1265107340' post='2152926']
I saw no public accusation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I will never support a CB over thought or bad humor, I will respect one over actions. But I still respect Grub for walking his talk. If he told you to stop and you persisted in his home, then open disrespect is definitely a valid CB. Simply put, if you are not welcome in my home, GTFO or suffer the consequences.

I simply wish language were not so heavily policed. Acions? Certainly. Language? Never.
[/quote]
There was a public accusation. Go read my essay, titled Questioning the Morality: AlmightGrub and you will be shown Grub's true colors.

I'm not sure how we disrespected Grub in his home, considering the remark was made in our public channel. Which, generally, one would consider our home. Grub does own the world though, right?

What exactly are you arguing here?