NeCoHo Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 You're used to making wild accusations with no evidence to support said accusations aren't you. Does the burden of proof lie in the hands of the the accuser or the accused? If it's in the hands of the accused, prove how right now there isn't a flurry of IRC activity in support of overflowing this thread with one side of a story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneBallMan Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Excuses for what? FAN wasn't treatied to VE....The sovereign government itself was the one asking for help, thus nullifying your argument that Athen's goal was to cause any harm to UED. Did I miss the part of the logs where KDII entered the room.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Does the burden of proof lie in the hands of the the accuser or the accused? If it's in the hands of the accused, prove how right now there isn't a flurry of IRC activity in support of overflowing this thread with one side of a story. Then perhaps you would like to bring to light the logs supporting your claim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delendum Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Its nothing alike. TPF talked about it. Athens talked about. No one really did anything. Oh wait maybe it is alike. TPF organized a group of people with the intent of getting them to infiltrate Athens and RoK with the goal of !@#$@#$ them up. Athens tried to help a community who was asking for it's support in overthrowing an incompetent leader. How exactly are they even comparable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 You, sir, got graham crackers in my clam chowder. If they think that 'spaghetti' is going to stick against the wall... they may want to try using some glue next time to save themselves the embarrassment. Next it'll be some bullocks about NSO and us 'setting them up' or w/e. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 You're right, when the whole government of an alliance are against one person, it's clearly that one person who is most representative of the alliance's general feelings. I've seen it happen before. It's actually not that uncommon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steodonn Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 "We aren't getting involved with your internal matter, but this is what you should do."o/ Its called advise And UED desperately needed some at the time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 "We aren't getting involved with your internal matter, but this is what you should do."o/ Did you seriously just show that as an example? That's what I would do. You say, we aren't going to interfere, but this is the best method with which to handle it. You give advice to your allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinite citadel Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 We came to Athens for advice/help. They gave us their opinion we made our own decision.Yes we made our own decision. UED was a mess we had no choice but to disband. So here's a UED member stating they did in fact come to Athens for help. This isn't Athens trying to covertly destroy a community, rather an alliance coming to Athens for help and Athens giving them advice. If you're going to troll, atleast think about what you're going to post and do it intellectually. And with that I go back to lurking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 "We aren't getting involved with your internal matter, but this is what you should do."o/ So giving advice is bad now too? If you actually read what you quoted, we said we weren't going to force any change within UED through military means. That means, to put it in terms that have been used in this thread, not "interfering with the sovereign leadership and government of an alliance." We offered a struggling alliance protection. Would it have been worse if we had just tech raided them? Because it seems you take issue with us helping them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulomascovia Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I think you have no evidence to support that, and my own personal knowledge of UED would lead me to question that the wishes of the people were to have KD2 lead them. I don't see anything that shows that the members opposed this in any way :/ I don't see anything that shows that the membership agreed to disbanding the alliance and reforming it under a new name. Am I missing a poll? Also, I don't think you can argue that since the membership did not explicitly oppose the disbandment, they must all agree with it. Again, the ministers don't have the power to do that so when the membership elected them, it was assumed that they wouldn't do something like this. So to insure that the wishes of the membership are fulfilled, there had to be a vote of no confidence by the majority. I don't think that happened. So the ministers did not represent the wishes of the membership during the negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Its called adviseAnd UED desperately needed some at the time So this means that, apparently, my psychologist is trying to coup me and maliciously attack me by giving me advice. Who would've thought it possible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentkiller Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 You guys are completely right..UED should have just been left there and what promising members they HAD could have just sat there and wasted their talents..BAD ATHENS..BAD! [/sarcasm] I dont recall when Athen was appointed by the membership of UED to sort out any problems, and dendulum I am sure that if the membership knew that these gov members would have betrayed they wouldnt have voted for them. Also anyone notice how these gov members mentioned that they will take only the very active membership from UED? If that is'nt destroying the community then I dont know what is. And on the point of UED coming to Athens for help, they should have been reported to KDII, if he kicked them the membership could have left if they supported these 5 gov members so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Does the burden of proof lie in the hands of the the accuser or the accused? If it's in the hands of the accused, prove how right now there isn't a flurry of IRC activity in support of overflowing this thread with one side of a story. What are you rambling on about? Are you trying to make some clever allusion to the TPF CB, which all the logs of which have been verified? Did I miss the part of the logs where KDII entered the room.... [21:42] <TimLee> Basically. UED Government has no faith in KD2. Wants to leave, but doesn't want to let the membership suffer. The charter has no clause to disband, but they want to. They want to disband as long as they still have Athens Protectorate for new alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin32891 Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) Its not Athens' fault they like tech so much, I do to. The end justifies the means. Edited December 31, 2009 by kevin32891 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 So this means that, apparently, my psychologist is trying to coup me and maliciously attack me by giving me advice. Who would've thought it possible... You obviously have to attack him immediately, he may be stealing your thoughts and posting them on other people's brains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurion Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 So this means that, apparently, my psychologist is trying to coup me and maliciously attack me by giving me advice. Who would've thought it possible... You may owe me a keyboard and a can of Coke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I dont recall when Athen was appointed by the membership of UED to sort out any problems, and dendulum I am sure that if the membership knew that these gov members would have betrayed they wouldnt have voted for them. Also anyone notice how these gov members mentioned that they will take only the very active membership from UED? If that is'nt destroying the community then I dont know what is. And on the point of UED coming to Athens for help, they should have been reported to KDII, if he kicked them the membership could have left if they supported these 5 gov members so much. The ministers themselves were the ones whom wanted to sort out the UED problems. They only wanted to make sure they'd have a protectorate for their new alliance. They also themselves wanted what was best for their membership as proven by: [21:42] <TimLee> Basically. UED Government has no faith in KD2. Wants to leave, but doesn't want to let the membership suffer. The charter has no clause to disband, but they want to. They want to disband as long as they still have Athens Protectorate for new alliance. Considering they're actually government of said alliance I'd say their word counted for quite a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mussolandia Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Next it'll be some bullocks about NSO and us 'setting them up' or w/e. 80% baby, 80%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneBallMan Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 What are you rambling on about? Are you trying to make some clever allusion to the TPF CB, which all the logs of which have been verified? That TimLee, I don't remember, has he ever.... you know... plotted with outsiders and tried to coup an alliance against its member's wishes before? Final Answer Herr Concept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delendum Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) I dont recall when Athen was appointed by the membership of UED to sort out any problems, and dendulum I am sure that if the membership knew that these gov members would have betrayed they wouldnt have voted for them. Also anyone notice how these gov members mentioned that they will take only the very active membership from UED? If that is'nt destroying the community then I dont know what is. And on the point of UED coming to Athens for help, they should have been reported to KDII, if he kicked them the membership could have left if they supported these 5 gov members so much. lol did you misspell my nick on purpose? Athens was asked for help by the government of UED, minus KDII. It looks to me like they were trying to save the community, not betray it, else why would they bother trying to get rid of a known incompetent and reform it under a different name in hopes that it would turn out better for all of them? Athens were trying to HELP a community, not disband it, it's what those UED gov members were asking for. I'm not sure how you consider kicking all your gov members out and then waiting for the rest of the members to leave as the best course of action. Edited December 31, 2009 by delendum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steodonn Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I dont recall when Athen was appointed by the membership of UED to sort out any problems, and dendulum I am sure that if the membership knew that these gov members would have betrayed they wouldnt have voted for them. Also anyone notice how these gov members mentioned that they will take only the very active membership from UED? If that is'nt destroying the community then I dont know what is. And on the point of UED coming to Athens for help, they should have been reported to KDII, if he kicked them the membership could have left if they supported these 5 gov members so much. What part of UED was falling apart don't you understand. They tried to save what they could. Alliances need protection Athens helped at UEDs REQUEST I dont think this thread is even worth posting in anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 That TimLee, I don't remember, has he ever.... you know... plotted with outsiders and tried to coup an alliance against its member's wishes before?Final Answer Herr Concept? I don't know who in the world TimLee is except for the one presented in this log. And considering that UED's ministers were the ones whom wanted the protection from Athens in order to survive as any normal alliance normally does, I'm still lost as to what argument you're trying to make. Also nice nazi reference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Its nothing alike. TPF talked about it. Athens talked about. No one really did anything. Oh wait maybe it is alike. You are 100% right. If you ignore the fact that ZH was set up. And then you ignore the logs showing suggestions and directions on how to proceed. If you ignore the logs of ZH having to cancel an OP that was only..."talked about". If you ignore all of those things, then yes, its the same. We appreciate your validation of our CB. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Autumn Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 So Londo and Athens have perpetuated exactly the same thing as mhawk and The Phoenix Federation, minus the insertion of a covert force. Public outrage? Assured. Long discussion? Garunteed. Action being taken? Unlikely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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