Athens does it again

[The Feather]

Big Bad, if you're going to post something like this, post it as part of your CB. It's one thing to complain about how evil Athens is, but if you truly want the punished, then scarmble your allies together and declare.

[Shimmer]

Also, Timlee I'm dissapointed in see you in the middle of this whole fiasco.

Well, I'm sorry I'm late to this party. I'll clarify from my point of view.

-The New Alliance they were making was going to have an Athens Protectorate.

-They Instead wanted to keep UED and had ample proof King Death II has violated the charter multiple times.

-They had no real protection post coup and asked Athens to help as they were going to be the new Alliance Protector

-I was involved due to my friendship with everyone in UED excluding King Death II.

-I was approached by UED after my joke thread on CN Forum against KDII showing a few holes in charter he edited out for convenience including the clause that says he served life. He set himself up for this.

King Death II refused to get//allow his membership trades from any alliance outside Red Solidarity. When a man puts his ego above his alliance, it's his time to go. In hindsight, I'd do it all over again.

[Rush Sykes]

Well, I'm sorry I'm late to this party. I'll clarify from my point of view.

-The New Alliance they were making was going to have an Athens Protectorate.

-They Instead wanted to keep UED and had ample proof King Death II has violated the charter multiple times.

-They had no real protection post coup and asked Athens to help as they were going to be the new Alliance Protector

-I was involved due to my friendship with everyone in UED excluding King Death II.

-I was approached by UED after my joke thread on CN Forum against KDII showing a few holes in charter he edited out for convenience including the clause that says he served life. He set himself up for this.

King Death II refused to get//allow his membership trades from any alliance outside Red Solidarity. When a man puts his ego above his alliance, it's his time to go. In hindsight, I'd do it all over again.

How dare you speak out against the truth and righteousness of the OP.

[Comrade Craig]

This argument will break down along party lines, obviously, but to break it down a bit further:

Athens and Co. are now at war with TPF for attempting to put into motion a plan that had the potential to take Athens over from the inside, plotted during a huge global war during which time Athens and TPF were not officially at war. Athens is angry because the TPF thing never went public.

Prior to Athens declaring war on TPF for these acts, Londo Mollari, of Athens, was putting into motion a plan that would eventually lead to United Earth Directory's disbandment, thereby turning the new UED into an Athens tech farm... the very same reason why a now-disbanded alliance called \m/ (not to be confused with \m/) disbanded over.

Note the absence of the word "attempting" between TPF and Athens' plans. But I don't expect you folks from Athens, RoK, MK, Sparta, GOD, "\m/," or the rest of you whatever-you-want-to-call-yourselves to get it.

Notably absent in this thread are the complaints of UED (as far into the thread as I have read), the supposed victim. No victim, no crime.

Athens & Co. discovered a plot and were the victims of it. They protested the plot and responded to it with force. If the UED situation is the same, then where is the vast outcry from the victims themselves? Do you "get it?"

This issue, on the other hand, seems to be an attempt to grasp at straws and say, "see, they did it, too." And a weak one.

I'm not particularly defending Athens' role in the current war, or the validity of their CB, but I do take offense to the assault on logic that this thread represents.

-Craig

[Alterego]

Well, I'm sorry I'm late to this party. I'll clarify from my point of view.

-The New Alliance they were making was going to have an Athens Protectorate.

-They Instead wanted to keep UED and had ample proof King Death II has violated the charter multiple times.

-They had no real protection post coup and asked Athens to help as they were going to be the new Alliance Protector

-I was involved due to my friendship with everyone in UED excluding King Death II.

-I was approached by UED after my joke thread on CN Forum against KDII showing a few holes in charter he edited out for convenience including the clause that says he served life. He set himself up for this.

King Death II refused to get//allow his membership trades from any alliance outside Red Solidarity. When a man puts his ego above his alliance, it's his time to go. In hindsight, I'd do it all over again.

Alliance Athens had no connection with came to them and asked them to help them when they coup their leader. Athens thought it was okay to help people in an alliance they had no connection with coup their leader. You helped out by making a "joke thread" showing them how to coup their leader because you know them and not their leader and you think thats okay. Let me ask you something, what have you lot been smoking when this is ok and what TPF planned but never carried out during a war is not ok?

[flak attack]

In all honesty I have difficulty following that train of thought. I consider offering protection to those who perform a coup to be the same thing as helping in the coup itself. It's like if a group in some alliance went to an allies gov and asked for support in a coup, and that allied govs response was "we won't help you execute the coup, but should you be successful, we will recognize the new government as legitimate and our treaty will continue to stand". I mean, of course you're not going to be involved in the actual removal of the leader in the alliance, it would be rather hard for you to do that lacking internal access to their forums, among other things. But you even went beyond implicit support and advised them on exactly how to proceed. Thus, I think it's fair to say Athens supported this coup, for what I see as fairly selfish reasons (an easy source of tech, or more pessimitically, a tech farm).

A) UED was not a protectorate of Athens

B) Protection after the coup is not the same as protection during the coup. Had they attempted the coup and KDII called in his allies to put it down, Athens would not have helped

C) Londo is in no part taking part in the coup, nor is he the one that brings it up. The UED members are saying "We're going to coup KDII, disband EUD, then start a new alliance, we want you to be the protectors of that alliance" Note that they are taking the active members with them, so with the exception of KDII, the community will stay together, simply moving to another name. By giving the protection needed my most small alliances, Athens is actually helping the community stay together.

[Doitzel]

If ever there was an alliance that needed a coup it was UED.

[Shimmer]

Alliance Athens had no connection with came to them and asked them to help them when they coup their leader. Athens thought it was okay to help people in an alliance they had no connection with coup their leader. You helped out by making a "joke thread" showing them how to coup their leader because you know them and not their leader and you think thats okay. Let me ask you something, what have you lot been smoking when this is ok and what TPF planned but never carried out during a war is not ok?

If you read any thread. I don't like the CB personally and believe TPF's actions were justifiable due to them being at war at the time of the events in question.

[Daikos]

So The Big Bad, I have to ask, did you actually read any of the logs or did somebody write up some cliff-notes for you and you figured since the logs were so long nobody would call you on the fact that this is not in any way, shape or form similar to the war going on with TPF?

I am no fan of Athens or the way they have gone about some things in the past but this is just a pathetic attempt to lower the public's opinion of them. The only people who look any worse (if that's possible) are those who are running their mouths in this thread with clearly no concept of what is being discussed or what the logs are about.

[nerolocutus]

For shame Athens. You're ways and means disgust me.

[Yggdrazil]

If Athens now think this action was "kosher",why the secrecy about Athens involvement.

[Dochartaigh]

It's funny how using different words for the same event makes such a big difference.

One side calls it "conspire with" and the other "give advice"

One side calls it "overthrow the government" and the other "get rid of a member"

None those wordings is, technically, a lie, but they give such different impressions that it really cracks you up.

you realize that UED came to Athens and have already stated that the decision was theirs.

mhawk formed ZH from TPF gov/members and created a plan to destroy Athens. Athens did not ask TPF to create ZH in order to disband Athens. TPF did that all on their own.

that is the key difference. if you don't realize this, well then quite frankly, you are a fool who is trying to hard.

[Dochartaigh]

The first point is that this is not directly comparable to the ZH-Athens situation. The charges of simple hypocrisy are off target.

However, it is another large black mark against Athens. Yes, the UED members (along with TimLee, who was not a member) came to Athens, not the other way around, but Athens government actively and fully took part in the planning and execution of a coup and the planning of an alliance disbandment. For an alliance which later declared war without diplomacy over a plan to infiltrate to have previously actively participated in the execution of a coup certainly involves some impressive doublethink.

what was active? they did not plant anyone inside UED. they did not do anything beyond talk. active would require more beyond talking such as creating an alliance out of former Athens members for the sole purpose of mergin into UED to coup KDII... that would be active.

giving some suggestions that may not even be followed is hardly active. and to even suggest it is active is just ridiculous. there is no doublethink. UED came asking for help. TPF wanted to destroy Athens.... i am not sure what Athens doing to help an alliance that came to it requires doublethink to think that TPF trying to forcefully destroy Athens is bad? seriously, ya'll stretching the crap outta this.

also talk about hypocrisy, amazing that many of ya'll see what Athens did as wrong while stating that TPF was completely justified...... that my friends is hypocrisy and double standards. and ya'll just proving your hypocrisy. tis a shame. some of you i thought was better than this. some, well not so much.

[Rebel Virginia]

Question for Señor Virginia: Shall you be declaring war on anyone over this incident?

If me, I surrender in advance.

Yes, but I will be saving the CB for six months before acting upon it.

[zzzptm]

Yes, but I will be saving the CB for six months before acting upon it.

Excellent plan, as it gives me plenty of time to save up for the reparations I shall owe you.

So are we looking at June 30th or July 1st? I think it would be best for you to give me one date here and then another in an IRC query so I could dump logs of the convo that will clearly contradict your comments here and then you can tell me to do something about it.

[Letum]

you realize that UED came to Athens and have already stated that the decision was theirs.

mhawk formed ZH from TPF gov/members and created a plan to destroy Athens. Athens did not ask TPF to create ZH in order to disband Athens. TPF did that all on their own.

that is the key difference. if you don't realize this, well then quite frankly, you are a fool who is trying to hard.

You realise I am making a factual observation of the different words used to describe this event, and have made no comment on supporting any one "side" of the story?

Also, it isn't nice to call people fools.

[Azhrei]

Nice try. I think enough people here are familiar with several of the characters in this story and at least one of the central characters in the logs to see right through the BigBad & NPO faux outrage.

One would hope... but it doesn't stop the PR machine.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Azhrei

[Bob Janova]

also talk about hypocrisy, amazing that many of ya'll see what Athens did as wrong while stating that TPF was completely justified

Show me where anyone – even from TPF for that matter – who states that TPF was 'completely justified'.

active would require more beyond talking such as creating an alliance out of former Athens members for the sole purpose of mergin into UED to coup KDII... that would be active.

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of 'active'. A coup is almost entirely talking (government positions are not a material thing to be taken), and Athens took an active part in that talking. No, they did not plant members in UED, but they (and Tim Lee for that matter) actively supported the couping ministers, offering them protection once the deed was done and even directing the execution of the coup's PR and foreign relations.

[Dochartaigh]

Show me where anyone – even from TPF for that matter – who states that TPF was 'completely justified'.

umm... read the Athens DoW thread or the TPF response thread or any of the other threads on this topic. it is all over that. many on your side (of the argument) feel that TPF was justified since it was during the Karma war to do this plan. that is the argument that has been used.

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of 'active'. A coup is almost entirely talking (government positions are not a material thing to be taken), and Athens took an active part in that talking. No, they did not plant members in UED, but they (and Tim Lee for that matter) actively supported the couping ministers, offering them protection once the deed was done and even directing the execution of the coup's PR and foreign relations.

We came to Athens for advice/help. They gave us their opinion we made our own decision.

Yes we made our own decision. UED was a mess we had no choice but to disband.

tis all i got to say Bob. a statement by one of the UED gov involved in it. by his own admission Athens only gave advice. they had nothing to do with the actual decision to go forward as KOwens stated that UED gov made their own decision.

so any attempt to spin this otherwise is false as UED gov has already admitted differently on this matter. unless of course you just plan on ignoring that critical piece of information in order to continue yours and others attempt to smear Athens?

[Bob Janova]

it is all over that. many on your side (of the argument) feel that TPF was justified since it was during the Karma war to do this plan.

I think you may be missing a subtlety. Many people (including me) feel that war is not justified because the infraction occured while TPF was already at war with Karma. That is not the same thing as saying that their action was justified.

I can only say that KOwens must either be misremembering the content of that conversation or he is saying that in order to back his friend and protector up in this PR battle. If you read the logs you can clearly see that Londo and Rsox give detailed instruction on the step by step process of going through the coup, which technically counts as 'just advice' but which is definitely active cooperation in the process (i.e. the coup could not have succeeded without their direction).

[Dochartaigh]

I think you may be missing a subtlety. Many people (including me) feel that war is not justified because the infraction occured while TPF was already at war with Karma. That is not the same thing as saying that their action was justified.

I can only say that KOwens must either be misremembering the content of that conversation or he is saying that in order to back his friend and protector up in this PR battle. If you read the logs you can clearly see that Londo and Rsox give detailed instruction on the step by step process of going through the coup, which technically counts as 'just advice' but which is definitely active cooperation in the process (i.e. the coup could not have succeeded without their direction).

yes, i read that. but you seem to be adding stuff that is not there. such as where Londo/Rsox force UED to do the coup.

simple fact is, UED gov went to Londo/Rsox for advice and help. Londo/Rsox gave said advice (read the step by step instructions). UED gov then went and talked amongst themselves and decided on their own that they would go through with the coup. from the moment the UED gov went and talked amongst themselves whether or not they would or wouldn't coup KDII is where Athens stopped being involved.

so, i doubt KOwens is misremembering jack !@#$ or just attempting to back up a friend. he is stating the truth of what occurred which greatly differs from what ya'll detractors are trying to infer from the logs.

the coup could very well have never taken place if UED gov decided not to do it. so again, this is greatly different from what TPF did.

[Bob Janova]

but you seem to be adding stuff that is not there. such as where Londo/Rsox force UED to do the coup.

The irony here is outstanding. You just added that.

this is greatly different from what TPF did.

If you actually read through the thread you'd see that that was my very first sentence in it.

[King Death II]

whoa, huge thread.......

Here is what should have happened:

KOwens and Wulff go to Athens and tell them of the plot to coup me and to disband UED and to have Athens protect the new alliance that they are making after the disband. Athens then should have said "screw off because that is despicable and none of our business, if your new alliance wants a protectorate, come to us AFTER you do all that crap to UED and dont make us involved and perhaps we will consider protecting you guys."

Here is what happened:

KOwens and Wulff go to Athens and tell them of the plot to coup me and to disband UED and to have Athens protect the new alliance that they are making after the disband. Athens says "ya cool, disband it and stuff cuz KD sucks etc... and here is how to do it and yea sure we will protect your new alliance after you killed UED"

Hope that clears things up......

[Dochartaigh]

The irony here is outstanding. You just added that.

If you actually read through the thread you'd see that that was my very first sentence in it.

the irony is nothing. you are implying that somehow Londo/Rsox forced UED to do something and you seem to think that UED could not make the decision to go forward on their own.

[wickedj]

whoa, huge thread.......

Here is what should have happened:

KOwens and Wulff go to Athens and tell them of the plot to coup me and to disband UED and to have Athens protect the new alliance that they are making after the disband. Athens then should have said "screw off because that is despicable and none of our business, if your new alliance wants a protectorate, come to us AFTER you do all that crap to UED and dont make us involved and perhaps we will consider protecting you guys."

Here is what happened:

KOwens and Wulff go to Athens and tell them of the plot to coup me and to disband UED and to have Athens protect the new alliance that they are making after the disband. Athens says "ya cool, disband it and stuff cuz KD sucks etc... and here is how to do it and yea sure we will protect your new alliance after you killed UED"

Hope that clears things up......

no, you have no reason to be bitter, spiteful or full of it whatsoever