silentkiller Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 The ministers themselves were the ones whom wanted to sort out the UED problems. They only wanted to make sure they'd have a protectorate for their new alliance. They also themselves wanted what was best for their membership as proven by:Considering they're actually government of said alliance I'd say their word counted for quite a bit. They went behind UED's back to disband the alliance they "loved" so much, if anyone needs to be kicked for uncivil behaviour I am sure its them. And if they wanted to keep the community together I dont think disbanding the alliance is going to achieve that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) I don't see anything that shows that the membership agreed to disbanding the alliance and reforming it under a new name. Am I missing a poll? Also, I don't think you can argue that since the membership did not explicitly oppose the disbandment, they must all agree with it. Then please show me the proof. Athens is being accused of a crime here, and there is no proof that supports that crime. When you have evidence they committed the crime, then there is a case. The burden of proof follows upon those accusing who rushed this out here without thinking about the possibility that Athens could be in the right. When they have a bit of evidence to support their claims, then they will have something to say. Right now, we know nothing about the members, and you cannot make assumptions like we are all trying to. Right now, Athens has done nothing wrong. If there is more to this story, then maybe they have. I'm personally going to talk to exUED members and get their opinions on the matter before I say that Athens was wrong, as the people who posted this thread should have done. I would encourage you to do the same. Edited December 31, 2009 by Penlugue Solaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 So Londo and Athens have perpetuated exactly the same thing as mhawk and The Phoenix Federation, minus the insertion of a covert force. Public outrage? Assured. Long discussion? Garunteed. Action being taken? Unlikely. Please actually read the logs. UED came to Athens looking for advice and help to coup KD2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 So Londo and Athens have perpetuated exactly the same thing as mhawk and The Phoenix Federation, minus the insertion of a covert force. Public outrage? Assured. Long discussion? Garunteed. Action being taken? Unlikely. That's not even close to the same thing. When TPF did it Athens govt had no idea nor supported any such attempt. In this case UED themselves asked for help, which is a completely different situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzzptm Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 WarriorConcept totally wins for not only having read the logs, but using them in readable excerpts to prove that the claims made in the OP are a load of hooey. Yes, I said it. A load of hooey, good sirs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delendum Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 So Londo and Athens have perpetuated exactly the same thing as mhawk and The Phoenix Federation, minus the insertion of a covert force. Public outrage? Assured. Long discussion? Garunteed. Action being taken? Unlikely. Exactly the same thing? They are not even remotely similar. Athens were trying to help a community, government members of which reached out to them ON THEIR OWN. We all know what TPF did, so I won't bother describing it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starbuck Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) You are 100% right. If you ignore the fact that ZH was set up. And then you ignore the logs showing suggestions and directions on how to proceed. If you ignore the logs of ZH having to cancel an OP that was only..."talked about". If you ignore all of those things, then yes, its the same. We appreciate your validation of our CB. Thank you. Wow, wait what! How were they set up, please explain this to me Edited December 31, 2009 by Dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 They went behind UED's back to disband the alliance they "loved" so much, if anyone needs to be kicked for uncivil behaviour I am sure its them. And if they wanted to keep the community together I dont think disbanding the alliance is going to achieve that. What? UED themselves asked for Athen's help. How in the world is that going behind their back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Athens = Big TPF = Small Therefore Athens = Right, TPF = Wrong This is simple math people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 When they have a bit of evidence to support their claims, then they will have something to say. Right now, we know nothing about the members, and you cannot make assumptions like we are all trying to. You should know this now Bob. People love jumping the gun, especially when they already lost playing Russian Roulette and are trying to earn some brownie points before they have to pull the trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilrow Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Did you seriously just show that as an example?That's what I would do. You say, we aren't going to interfere, but this is the best method with which to handle it. You give advice to your allies. Except they weren't allies. Try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeCoHo Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 What are you rambling on about? Are you trying to make some clever allusion to the TPF CB, which all the logs of which have been verified? I never said anything like that. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. On second thought, it's funny that is the first thing you think of though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Wow, wait what! How were they set up, please explain this to me You are pretty thick arent you? They exist, therefore they were set up. I know its a tough concept for you to grasp, give it time sweetie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Athens = BigTPF = Small Therefore Athens = Right, TPF = Wrong This is simple math people! What in the world are you on about? How about actually trying to make a !@#$@#$ argument here instead of throwing !@#$%^&* lines around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulomascovia Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Then please show me the proof.Athens is being accused of a crime here, and there is no proof that supports that crime. When you have evidence they committed the crime, then there is a case. The burden of proof follows upon those accusing who rushed this out here without thinking about the possibility that Athens could be in the right. When they have a bit of evidence to support their claims, then they will have something to say. Right now, we know nothing about the members, and you cannot make assumptions like we are all trying to. Right now, Athens has done nothing wrong. If there is more to this story, then maybe they have. I'm personally going to talk to exUED members and get their opinions on the matter before I say that Athens was wrong, as the people who posted this thread should have done. I would encourage you to do the same. Oh, I think Athens did nothing wrong (look at my posts). I'm just commenting that the ministers were most probably serving their own needs and not the needs of the membership. And I especially agree with the bolded part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Except they weren't allies. Try again. So is that what made it bad? The fact that we didn't have a treaty with them (yet) means we're not allowed to talk to them or give them advice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penkala Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Hey, if TPF deserves to be rolled for Thinking about destroying an alliance through espionage , how much more does Athens now deserve it? Repeating it makes you right! TPF didn't just think about it, they put the plan into action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbacher Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I don't know who in the world TimLee is except for the one presented in this log. And considering that UED's ministers were the ones whom wanted the protection from Athens in order to survive as any normal alliance normally does, I'm still lost as to what argument you're trying to make.Also nice nazi reference Watch it OBM we might get cbed by MK for the use of the word Herr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin32891 Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 What part of UED was falling apart don't you understand. They tried to save what they could. Alliances need protection Athens helped at UEDs REQUEST I dont think this thread is even worth posting in anymore If by disbanding a promising alliance once KDII was removed, and now possibly using the next alliance to come from this one as a tech farm as helping.. Then yes I agree with you completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorConcept Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I never said anything like that. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.On second thought, it's funny that is the first thing you think of though. Okay so ready to go back on topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 The sovereign government itself was the one asking for help, thus nullifying your argument that Athen's goal was to cause any harm to UED. Okay, then why did UED go to Athens? There are hundreds of alliances out there that UED could have gotten help from. I think (but I'm not positive) UED had treaty partners they could have gone to. So why would they go to pretty much same random alliance off the street they don't know, asking for help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delendum Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Athens = BigTPF = Small Therefore Athens = Right, TPF = Wrong This is simple math people! Oh please, not the "poor TPF" routine again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rush Sykes Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Okay, then why did UED go to Athens? There are hundreds of alliances out there that UED could have gotten help from. I think (but I'm not positive) UED had treaty partners they could have gone to. So why would they go to pretty much same random alliance off the street they don't know, asking for help? Here is a thought...just a thought though, mind you....Ask them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Watch it OBM we might get cbed by MK for the use of the word Herr. Last I checked it was TPF that has a problem with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Okay, then why did UED go to Athens? There are hundreds of alliances out there that UED could have gotten help from. I think (but I'm not positive) UED had treaty partners they could have gone to. So why would they go to pretty much same random alliance off the street they don't know, asking for help? A better question would be why in Admin's good planet would someone let a terrible leader stay in power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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