Howdy IAA and ZDP

[Owned-You]

I predict a thread of passive aggressive posturing. Ultimately resulting in a peaceful resolution because neither TPF nor IAA wish to plunge the world into another world-conflict over microalliance drama validating the assertation Fallen Fool made; nobody would want that.

[The Big Bad]

I thought ZDP was some rogue alliance that just attacked GOONS without a treaty? If this is a legit alliance and people like them maybe they should sign a treaty. I am not sure what IAA has to do with it other than they do get bored and like to raise a ruckus. And it seems Mhawk is just tossing in this in public so any subtle threats can now be tossed out the door and negotiations can get back on track. Pretty safe standard move really. Myself I would have told eveyone to shove it and let ZDP and NEW settle it or fight it out and is anyone was dumb enough to come in then the next great war would be on. Then again I enjoy war and pretty much want to see most of Planet Bob burn.

[Desperado]

Lusi, English isn't NEW's first language.

Of course this is not an excuse but it's likely a mishap happened. Reps were agreed too, NEW heard something and didn't fully comprehend what it meant, etc.

I'd like to see a NEW spokesman come in and just settle this issue and offer up reps to ZDP as originally intended but something tells me this facetious and sarcastic banter will continue on.

Reps were not agreed on. I think the idea was white peace but personally, I'd rather just seem all involved duke nuke this one out. No interventions, no more wars. Just how it is now for a week and its over. Done. Gone.

...But not the GRL!

[Penkala]

Paying reps to Brother Kane and ZDP would be a much recommended course of action to take right about now, NEW.

The issue is while trying to negotiate peace and resolve this, members of gov and other members of alliacnes supposedly trying to help resolve things are joining ZDP and attacking NEW. Doesn't help matters. Everytime it seems it is resolved something like this happens and sets things back, thus the post by mhawk to let everyone know at once where we stand on this issue.

You had all day to figure it out. Half a dozen people were on IRC trying to solve things. You KNEW attacks were coming in at update. Move a little faster if you don't want that to happen.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Penkala

[mhawk]

I believe the point you are trying to explain has been debunked already. We retaliated on the raiders only, it is NEW that added fuel to the fire.

Please explain the NEW nations that were attacked that did not participate in the raid, or the retaliation to your counter? They only have defensive wars, which would make your statement false.

[Brother Kane]

I thought ZDP was some rogue alliance that just attacked GOONS without a treaty? If this is a legit alliance and people like them maybe they should sign a treaty. I am not sure what IAA has to do with it other than they do get bored and like to raise a ruckus. And it seems Mhawk is just tossing in this in public so any subtle threats can now be tossed out the door and negotiations can get back on track. Pretty safe standard move really. Myself I would have told eveyone to shove it and let ZDP and NEW settle it or fight it out and is anyone was dumb enough to come in then the next great war would be on. Then again I enjoy war and pretty much want to see most of Planet Bob burn.

Again, what makes us a rogue alliance? The fact that we have the audacity to defend someone without a written agreement between us? This is the attitude we do not want to be associated with, which is precisely why we do not sign treaties.

[Lusitan]

Lusi, English isn't NEW's first language.

Of course this is not an excuse but it's likely a mishap happened. Reps were agreed too, NEW heard something and didn't fully comprehend what it meant, etc.

I'd like to see a NEW spokesman come in and just settle this issue and offer up reps to ZDP as originally intended but something tells me this facetious and sarcastic banter will continue on.

I meant that it's not the first time I hear the excuse "we can raid because our charter says so but your charter is not international law so we don't have to pay you reps". And it's not the first time I hear it from NEW's mouth. Not that I heard it directly the second time.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

Can we lay the "language barrier" to rest already? Logs prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that they understood full well what was meant. They reneged on their word, for a reason or another (I suspect it is because Sangar didn't warn his alliance that an agreement had been reached). Twice, they escalated this affair. Now, Mhawk, representing TPF, goes public to further escalate it.

If NEW's diplomatic envoy had felt threatened during this morning's peace negotiations, he had the right to leave the room. He didn't. In fact, the conversation started with more people on NEW's side than we had in the room and in NS and members, we were always outnumbered.

So much for threatening.

[Hydro]

Again, what makes us a rogue alliance? The fact that we have the audacity to defend someone without a written agreement between us? This is the attitude we do not want to be associated with, which is precisely why we do not sign treaties.

It's good to see that the great lie is slowly dissipating and that the Moldavi doctrine is gradually being adopted by alliances other than the NSO.

[The AUT]

Does anyone find it hilarious a small naive RIA nation is asserting itself in matters and making threats?

Edit: Nvm, misread.

I'm exiting this thread as there's really nothing left to be said. Just a bunch of hot air and words that will amount to little action.

Edited December 16, 2009 by The AUT

[mhawk]

Can we lay the "language barrier" to rest already? Logs prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that they understood full well what was meant. They reneged on their word, for a reason or another (I suspect it is because Sangar didn't warn his alliance that an agreement had been reached). Twice, they escalated this affair. Now, Mhawk, representing TPF, goes public to further escalate it.

If NEW's diplomatic envoy had felt threatened during this morning's peace negotiations, he had the right to leave the room. He didn't. In fact, the conversation started with more people on NEW's side than we had in the room and in NS and members, we were always outnumbered.

So much for threatening.

ZDP contributed to that escalation by attacking NEW nations that were not involved in the raid or the counter to your counter.

[Rush Sykes]

Please explain the NEW nations that were attacked that did not participate in the raid, or the retaliation to your counter? They only have defensive wars, which would make your statement false.

I will take a stab at this one....But I may be wrong.

NEW said the original raid would remain 1 on 1. Then promptly declared another war on the same target. At that point, all bets are off, and they deserve the attacks. Either your word is your bond, or you pay the price.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Rush Sykes

[JWConner]

Does anyone find it hilarious a small naive RIA nation is asserting itself in matters and making threats?

Well, it's Penkala...what would you expect?

[Lennox]

Screw peace, attack dammit.

Yes I completely agree!

[Ejayrazz]

I believe that if IAA and ZDP are friends they don't need a treaty to help each other out.

The diplomat in me hopes this gets solved diplomatically.

The CN player and alliance Leader in me, sadly, has to agree with Jack Diorno. The leader in me also agrees with Archon's assement.

So in review: I add nothing new to this thread and agree with a bunch of people who posted before me.

Wow. I am astonished someone possess the brains to understand spirit is more important than written stone. +10xp in my book, and believe me, my book has few names these days. People need to begin realizing friendship isn't something that always needs to be written down...hell, ninety percent of the people on Bob are in alliances with a dozen treaties which lead their word, as friends, no where.

Truly epic post.

Let me add a few notes to this topic.

What you describe as peaceful negotiations, I found to be riddled with threats (Ironically this type of stuff, "if you don't do this, we're going to make you this months athens"... which I found amusing for personal reasons ) combined with several alliances coming to me to note that this issue is likely to result in some form of war in the near future. I found the conversations taunting as opposed to respectful, especially given some issues our friends have with our particular language. The threats to take this to the owf and bash them would likely have been pretty bad for them, once again considering the language barrier. I figured we might as well go ahead and put the situation out there without all the "you double crossed us and are full of lies" banter. ZDP has legit reasons for being upset, NEW certainly likely realizes it was a bad raid. The purpose of this thread is not to threaten, but to assist our friends in communicating their desire for peace, which I fired was about to be deeply hidden under an organized smear campaign on the owf.

-- PS, guys leave athens and pez alone please. Lets focus on being good friends to NEW for the moment.

Bolded part for reference.

1. It wasn't a raid, but rather an attack with their choice of military attacks

2. You admit they were wrong. Be the bigger person and understand the alliance was wrong..whether you appreciate their diplomacy or not..NEW was wrong and it takes a bigger man to realize it. End the cycle. Free the people!

Then you should have addressed those concerns in private, before coming here. I'm sure if you had taken the initiative to discuss this with IAA gov (especially Chimaera himself) it would have been resolved.

But you didn't. I must say, Christmas War '09 is looking mighty interesting.

Honestly, I agree, but I disagree. I am glad this reached here because for a brief second, my blood began boiling like the old days when drama like this would hit the public. Either way, you're right, but pipe down. We could use more of this.

I won't debate anything about this situation, but that's just a rogue who was just accepted back, in the same way that E_S was welcomed back to Polar after the Karma war.

He went rogue. Personally, I see it as a sign of strength and courage. I won't profess to understand anything of roguery from this situation other than the fact that ZDP was originally a rogue alliance that no longer should bear that title.

I must disagree. Someone who rogues from their alliance and then returns is merely, in my opinion, selfish. They put themselves before their alliance and if someone is truly dedicated to their 'beloved alliance', they should stick with it through thick and thin. If an alliance makes a decision, you should follow it and not put yourself before the alliance. This is highly opinionated and subject to rebuts, but the point still lingers. You don't like how your alliance decides things, find a new one.

Even bad PR is better than no PR.

Not at all. I believe quite a few alliances have died because of bad PR.

[bzelger]

I like these ZDP folks. It's good to see people stand up for themselves.

Standing with your ally even when they're wrong is admirable to a degree too, TPF. I hope you encourage NEW to fix their policies so they don't do more of the same in the future.

As for the rest, I hope it works out peacefully.

[mhawk]

I will take a stab at this one....But I may be wrong.

NEW said the original raid would remain 1 on 1. Then promptly declared another war on the same target. At that point, all best are off, and they deserve the attacks. Either your word is your bond, or you pay the price.

I would agree that once it was spiraling out of control all bets were off. However directly quoted in my post was their leader claiming they had not attacked any NEW nations that were not involved with the raid.

[Penkala]

Does anyone find it hilarious a small naive RIA nation is asserting itself in matters and making threats? tongue.gif

Yes, clearly my nation strength means I'm useless. I'm naive, even though I've been working on trying to fix this since before you even knew it existed. Clearly you know more about this than I ever could, and I shall take my leave now! Thanks, Aut.

p.s. if I make a threat, you'll know it.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Penkala

[Tygaland]

Again, what makes us a rogue alliance? The fact that we have the audacity to defend someone without a written agreement between us? This is the attitude we do not want to be associated with, which is precisely why we do not sign treaties.

I think you should take this incident as a prime example of people having differing opinions on similar incidents depending on who is involved. As I said in the Athens/KoN threads, none of the bleeding hearts there gave a crap about KoN, it was Athens they wanted to take a strip of flesh from. They just disguised it (poorly) as concern for KoN! and objection to raiding alliances.

However, when NEW raids an alliance it is fine. No baying for blood, no sanctimonius moralising over the ethics of raiding and no sabre rattling. Then to see that defending oneself from a raid is wrong and apparently a sound reason for the raiding alliance to no longer pay reparations is just another humourous aside. Another is the "well they had no treaties so were asking to be raided" excuse which was howled down (quite rightly) when those few defending Athens' raid offered it as an excuse.

Then we have IAA being "called out" for defending a friend without a treaty when other alliances were lauded for offering to step in on KoN!'s behalf without a treaty a matter of weeks ago.

I have nothing against NEW or anyone else involved in this incident. I deplore raids on alliances regardless of size and condemn this raid as I condemned Athens' raid. The inconsistency and opportunism on display over the past few weeks is jaw-dropping but not unexpected.

[Mathias]

So a few nations join ZDP and engage NEW, that doesn't affect the peace process at all. You finish negotiating, end the conflict, and if anyone keeps fighting they're on their own. As much as I hate to say it, you're an experienced leader mhawk, quit acting like it's your first day on the job.

[Vilien]

I have nothing against NEW or anyone else involved in this incident. I deplore raids on alliances regardless of size and condemn this raid as I condemned Athens' raid. The inconsistency and opportunism on display over the past few weeks is jaw-dropping but not unexpected.

We should probably all know by now that hypocrisy is the rule rather than the exception in these affairs.

[The FSM]

Myself and Jbone worked nearly all of the afternoon yesterday alongside TOP and with NEW, while Jbone communicated with ZDP, in an attempt to find a peaceful solution, it was Jbone whom talked NEW into the initial peace, where NEW peaced out the three wars. It was ZDP whom escalated when rogues from other alliances struck NEW. So don't even begin to say TPF hasn't tried to solve this diplomatically. We are still working that front, and hope that is how this ends, diplomatically.

So in a further effort to reach a peaceful resolution to the NEW-ZDP affair, TPF took it upon itself to forgo dealing with IAA a fellow party interested in peace and decided to call us out in public and falsely accuse us of being warmongers.

Instead of trying to communicate with IAA leadership privately to actually try and get our opinions, input, and help in the peace process, you resorted to attempted posturing and name calling. Whatever efforts you have taken to resolve this diplomatically have been more than negated by this, dare I say it, brilliant political move.

IAA has always wanted a peaceful resolution for this, and we still wait alongside ZDP for NEW's response to our peace offer. If NEW declines the offer, IAA will be more than willing to head back to the negotiating table to try and work something out. Given this TPFiasco I'm not sure the same can be said for TPF.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

ZDP contributed to that escalation by attacking NEW nations that were not involved in the raid or the counter to your counter.

Ridiculous.

Timeline, once again:

1)NEW raids us.

2)NEW guarantees us this will remain a 1v1 war between BK and yoyoabc.

3)NEW breaks their promise in 30 minutes flat. Another guy attacks BK. He also does two spy operations to destroy BK's monetary reserves. By that point, it was evident that this wasn't a raid anymore.

4)NEW adds yet another guy to the fray, on BK.

5)ZDP retaliates on the three attackers.

6)NEW adds more attackers, outside of the first three.

7)ZDP acknowledges those attacks and retaliates.

I can't see how you can spin this. It's crystal clear that, every time, our moves were limited reactions to NEW's escalations and repeated offensives.

Also, we have offered peace to NEW (white peace to all, 18m$ paid to BK for the spy ops) and given them 24 hours to give us their official response. Why did you feel the need to make this public, save for PR !@#$%^&*, by trying to preemptively shift the blame from NEW to IAA?

[JWConner]

Yes, clearly my nation strength means I'm useless. I'm naive, even though I've been working on trying to fix this since before you even knew it existed. Clearly you know more about this than I ever could, and I shall take my leave now! Thanks, Aut.

p.s. if I make a threat, you'll know it.

Everyone, fear the almighty lolpenkala. He's behind the scenes on all things Planet Bob. He's the mastermind behind Karma's defenses. He's all knowing. He's PENKALALALALALALA!!!

But in all seriousness, he's Penkala. If he says he's been working for peace in this situation, then know that his word is law.

Edited December 16, 2009 by JWConner

[mhawk]

So a few nations join ZDP and engage NEW, that doesn't affect the peace process at all. You finish negotiating, end the conflict, and if anyone keeps fighting they're on their own. As much as I hate to say it, you're an experienced leader mhawk, quit acting like it's your first day on the job.

Once again, the issue in the context of my post is a ZDP leader claiming such an event did not occur.