To whom it may concern.

[TehChron]

Uhhhhhhh what?

They shouldn't have told their allies that they think they might have people spying on them and tried to work it out?

That would seem like a good idea to me, personally. If IAA was a random alliance and LoSS brought it to them, you would be correct of course. However, discussing a situation with your ally is not being a dick in any way, shape, or form.

Im not saying taking it to you was unwarranted.

I'm saying that it took Krunk taking this public issue public in order for LoSS to bring it up with the most relevant parties aside from itself is being a dick. I mean, you'd think that if they knew to take this to you, their allies, it's not like they can plead ignorance on the intricacies of diplomacy here.

They willfully kept us, Krunk's alliance, out of the loop, rather than try and legitimately resolve it. That is at the very least screwed up, and the most, downright suspicious.

Edit: Also, need to remind you that there was no effort to "work it out" until well after this thread was posted.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Chron

[Rebirth]

Until very recently, LoSS did not provide evidence. Thank you for admitting I was right

Please reread what you quoted. Stating that you said something isn't an admission of guilt.

Im not saying taking it to you was unwarranted.

I'm saying that it took Krunk taking this public issue public in order for LoSS to bring it up with the most relevant parties aside from itself is being a dick. I mean, you'd think that if they knew to take this to you, their allies, it's not like they can plead ignorance on the intricacies of diplomacy here.

They willfully kept us, Krunk's alliance, out of the loop, rather than try and legitimately resolve it. That is at the very least screwed up, and the most, downright suspicious.

As Solaris said, asking your allies for help in a matter concerning a potentially volatile situation seems intelligent to me.

No, the conjecture is that he had spied. That there was no evidence provided (at the time) only bolsters my position (at the time) in saying as much. That you don't think so is rather irrelevant in the face of common sense and actual logic.

That you are argueing about who was more right in the past seems very counter productive and almost irrelevant in the face of common sense and actual logic. It also seems to weaken your position in the present because it implies that new evidence has come to light that hurts your past arguement.

Yeah, I mean, we totally knew about this beforehand.

Well if you didn't, why post about it?

[TehChron]

Please reread what you quoted. Stating that you said something isn't an admission of guilt.

It is if it he's spent the entire thread saying otherwise.

As Solaris said, asking your allies for help in a matter concerning a potentially volatile situation seems intelligent to me.

If you think the most important part was that this was taken to the IAA in general, then good for you.

That you are argueing about who was more right in the past seems very counter productive and almost irrelevant in the face of common sense and actual logic. It also seems to weaken your position in the present because it implies that new evidence has come to light that hurts your past arguement.

If new evidence comes to light proving I was wrong, than all that matters is that I was wrong. However, if what's being argued is that I was supposed to prove a negative, then by all means, I have a right to point out idiocy when it presents itself.

Well if you didn't, why post about it?

For the same reasons you're getting yourselves involved.

[Rebirth]

It is if it he's spent the entire thread saying otherwise.

So if I point out that you've been saying LoSS' accusinations of spying are baseless, I'm obviously agreeing with you?

If you think the most important part was that this was taken to the IAA in general, then good for you.

What I'm saying is that going into a potentially volatile situation quickly and then contacting your allies after it's over isn't the best order to proceed in such situations.

If new evidence comes to light proving I was wrong, than all that matters is that I was wrong. However, if what's being argued is that I was supposed to prove a negative, then by all means, I have a right to point out idiocy when it presents itself.

What you were trying to prove is that LoSS' unmade (at the time) accusinations were wrong.

In response to nonsensical, unproven, likely unfounded accusations of him spying, why wouldn't ridicule be appropriate?

(pg 3)

What you are trying to prove now is that they didn't make accusinations until now. Please show me the logic in that.

This entire time, that's all I said did not happen.

For the same reasons you're getting yourselves involved.

You're allied to LoSS too? Fascinating.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I think this has run its course.

[Rebirth]

*sigh* I suppose. It was quite fun though.

Well debated NSO.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Rebirth of Gorniar

[TehChron]

So if I point out that you've been saying LoSS' accusinations of spying are baseless, I'm obviously agreeing with you?

He was saying I somehow was saying otherwise. Please read what Ive been replying to this entire time.

What I'm saying is that going into a potentially volatile situation quickly and then contacting your allies after it's over isn't the best order to proceed in such situations.

...Im not disputing that at all. I'm saying not contacting directly involved parties until after a spectacle like this is being a dick and "flies in the face of etc etc." What were your thoughts on Ursakar's apology thread?

What you were trying to prove is that LoSS' unmade (at the time) accusinations were wrong.

(pg 3)

They were made to krunk. Leading him to post this. I never tried proving a damn thing, show me where I did. Please.

What you are trying to prove now is that they didn't make accusinations until now. Please show me the logic in that.

What? Where did I say that? Of course they made accusations, or else this mess would have never started. Quit being dense.

You're allied to LoSS too? Fascinating.

...Wow. Go obtuseness.

[Mathias]

I think this has run its course.

The arguments themselves are pointless, now if Krunk were to just behave like a regular person everything would be golden. If LoSS was coming to Krunk out of the blue to hurl allegations, that'd be one thing, but you cannot say you're (meaning NSO collective, not just Ivan) unaware of his conduct ever since he left (hint: this [ooc]thread[/ooc] is a great example). Any scrutiny, mistrust, or disdain he receives from LoSS is more than well deserved.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Mathias

[D34th]

What I fail to understand is if people don't care why they still post in threads that they don't care about. Remember: YOU-DON'T-CARE!

Also, Pro-TIP:

If you call people attetion whores and gives them attention posting and arguing with them you are doing exacty what they wan't. Be smart.

[Hunterman1043]

It's safe to say that Krunk made this thread prematurely of when we were ready to take our accusations to the top government of NSO. The fact that we went to our MDP/above allies first is irrelevant in the matter as that would be stupid to act alone in a volatile situation.

I thank IAA for their verbal support and defense.

I'm available on IRC most days so if anyone (relevant) has a question concerning this situation, I'm free and open for a private query.

Side Note: Hi Duncan King... Long time no speak. I hope that we can talk sometime, catch up and all.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Hunterman1043

[dwthegreat]

I'm available on IRC most days so if anyone (relevant) has a question concerning this situation, I'm free and open for a private query.

Because you are relevant enough to take questions right? All the Ministers of Education do that these days

[Bob]

Because you are relevant enough to take questions right? All the Ministers of Education do that these days

He does have government access as a Minister, and is well informed of the situation I would presume, so yes, he is relevant enough. You don't have to be the MoFA to be able to know whats going on.

[Sylar]

What I fail to understand is if people don't care why they still post in threads that they don't care about. Remember: YOU-DON'T-CARE!

Also, Pro-TIP:

If you call people attetion whores and gives them attention posting and arguing with them you are doing exacty what they wan't. Be smart.

but we would have never got 7 pages without that

and why does IAA seem to care about this more then loss

and i still have no idea or have seen any proof of Krunk spying on anyone

also just noticed i had a trifecta of emotions

Edited October 17, 2009 by Sylar

[Mathias]

Because you are relevant enough to take questions right? All the Ministers of Education do that these days

Because you are relevant enough to do anything right? All the members of BTO do that these days.

[James Wilson]

Because you are relevant enough to take questions right? All the Ministers of Education do that these days

Well, yea he is...thats kind of what it means to be government.

[dwthegreat]

You don't have to be the MoFA to be able to know whats going on.

I agree with this statement. On a side note, it isn't custom for the MoE to be handling situations where they feel concerned enough to go to their allies first.

Because you are relevant enough to do anything right? All the members of BTO do that these days.

Especially the Ringmaster

[Haflinger]

since no other member of NSO ever posted any evidence that LoSS never provided evidence

Doc, you're smarter than this.

You can't prove that anyone ever did not provide evidence.

For an example, I wish you to provide evidence clearly demonstrating that I did not provide evidence related to Krunk.

[Dochartaigh]

Doc, you're smarter than this.

You can't prove that anyone ever did not provide evidence.

For an example, I wish you to provide evidence clearly demonstrating that I did not provide evidence related to Krunk.

actually, it is simpler than most people think. point in fact is, in order for LoSS to have not provided evidence against Krunk, LoSS and NSO would have had to have discussed the matter. Otherwise, there was never any time LoSS could have not provided any materials to the NSO gov. thus, since Chron kept stating that no evidence was provided, i presumed some sort of talks had to have taken place where Krunk was accused of spying but no evidence was handed over. Thus, there would be logs of a discussion taking place that would show that LoSS accused Krunk of spying but never gave evidence. Frankly, this could also be Krunk's logs since somewhere along the line, Krunk had to have been accused of spying and no evidence had to have been handed over for the accusations of Chron to be anything but baseless.

Whether those talks were between LoSS and Krunk or LoSS and NSO does not matter but talks had to have taken place. Otherwise, there would not have been any accusation of spying ever on the table, thus no need for evidence to not have been handed over.

so fact is, there was never a negative as Ivan and Chron keep insisting. either other NSO gov or Krunk would have to have logs of a discussion taking place with LoSS where LoSS accused Krunk of spying but never handed over evidence of said spying.

so, yes, i am actually pretty damn intelligent. and what i demanded was actually quite easy to produce. there was never any negative to prove or disprove since the situation clearly demanded some sort of discussion having to have had to take place in order for the accusations to hold any substance whatsoever. if there was never a discussion, then this thread is even more useless than it appeared in the first place and the accusations thrown against LoSS even more baseless than before.

so yes Haflinger, i know i am way smarter than what your statement, or that of Ivan's or Chron's have given me credit for. fact is, i figured this out on my own and figured it out when it seems only a few others possibly did as well.

so again, to anyone else who wishes to state i am not that smart or that my demands for proof are dumb because the situation is in and of itself a negative, read above carefully and hopefully ya'll will figure out that the situation cannot be logically concluded to be a negative since there has to have been some sort of talks between LoSS and Krunk or other NSO gov in order for LoSS to have accused Krunk of spying in the first place. without this, there can never have been a situation that dictated any of the following events to take place at all. thus, logically without LoSS accusing Krunk of spying, Krunk nor LoSS would never have harassed one another and this thread would not exist.

the negative that actually needs to be proven is how there is no evidence to support Chron's accusations that LoSS accused Krunk of spying but never gave evidence to support LoSS's accusations.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Wow.

Just...wow.

[rtellez06]

Just wanted to point 1 thing out. This whole thread was not created because people thought Krunk was spying. As you can see, he gave half-$@! apologies for stupid things. Hes trying to be funny, and piss of LoSS, so theres no point in trying to stick up for him.

[Bjornoya]

Sarcastic Christian? a rare breed

[kevin32891]

theres no point in trying to stick up for him.

No its ok I like staying on Krunk's side.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Just wanted to point 1 thing out. This whole thread was not created because people thought Krunk was spying. As you can see, he gave half-$@! apologies for stupid things. Hes trying to be funny, and piss of LoSS, so theres no point in trying to stick up for him.

And I believe he has seen the error of posting a discussion like this in this format and venue. However, I will never fail to stand up for one of my members, even if they have made a mistake, until such time as I deem it necessary to withdraw that support.

That being said, I believe this discussion has seen enough comments from NSO. Unless something new arises I don't see the benefit of continuing in the same circles for any party.

[Penkala]

Oh come now, it's surely not too difficult to refute actual points being made to rebutt your nitpicking, is it? I mean, Janova's been doing such a....Well, such a good....Well he's made an effort at it, I think. Least you can do is address the blatant lack of logic required for your stance in this thread.

What? You guys love to run around commenting on everything, and yet Ivan's not fine with others doing it? I'm not asking you to do anything but do as you say. That's it.

The NSO, or a member who doesn't represent the alliance officially, doesn't matter really, starts a thread and several uninvolved parties decide to comment on it and before the thread is over the NSO is being called "attention whores". I find that odd.

That's not what happened. An NSO member made a thread trying to prompt an argument with LoSS, and your members came along and hailed his efforts to goad LoSS. So stop trying to spin this as some unknown member posting something not representing you; your alliance has stood by his position all throughout this thread and it's clear that this action is supported. And quite frankly, this resolved nothing except for some attention. Which is what you guys wanted in the first place.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Penkala

[Heft]

What? You guys love to run around commenting on everything, and yet Ivan's not fine with others doing it? I'm not asking you to do anything but do as you say. That's it.

Not really. As I've said before, the fact that people, including yourself, give an unreasonable amount of focus posts by NSO members does not mean that NSO members are actually posting that much more, or that much more abrasively, than others.

That's not what happened. An NSO member made a thread trying to prompt an argument with LoSS, and your members came along and hailed his efforts to goad LoSS. So stop trying to spin this as some unknown member posting something not representing you; your alliance has stood by his position all throughout this thread and it's clear that this action is supported. And quite frankly, this resolved nothing except for some attention. Which is what you guys wanted in the first place.

I feel like we could along a lot better if you would stop assuming you understood everything about us and our motivations, despite, as far as I can tell, never having personally contacted any of us. If you were a member of, say, Dark First I wouldn't care about this, but I actually would prefer to not get into absurd confrontations with RIA, as I think RIA is actually a decent alliance. And that makes your continued comments about us that much more aggravating.