Daboo Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) Whoever led the Flying Tigers. WAY too much confidence put in those guys. edit: learn2grammar, Daboo Edited October 6, 2009 by Daboo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildThing Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 I've had something of a backstage pass to Polaris under AlmightyGrub over the past year and a half. If you have any faith in my judgment, believe me when I say he deserves all the credit he gets and then some. I don't expect that to be immediately obvious without viewing the inner workings of our alliance or knowing Grub personally. It took a strong and steady hand to ease Polaris back into the global community from the state we were left in, to calm short-sighted internal interests, to ease the fears of foreign alliances, to always try to see the world objectively even in the most emotionally charged circumstances, to maintain old talent and find new talent, to juggle being both a leader and a team player, and all the while to keep everyone united and in high spirits while there wasn't really a lot to be cheerful about. It'd be a shame to discount all of that because of a few negative impressions you got from him before he was Emperor, but not to worry he never cared much for recognition so I don't think he'll lose sleep over it. I actually do believe you when you say it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Boris Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Overrated, huh? Going to have to go with Ivan Moldavi, Xiphosis, and Delta1212 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Napoleon IIII Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Overrated huh... only Sponge and Ivan come to mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crymson Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 I think people forget that he was one of the reasons Polar alienated themselves in the first place. As someone intimately familiar with the government-level affairs in the period to which you're referring, I can confirm to you that this isn't correct. There was all of one month between Grub's appointment as emperor and the declarations of war on his alliance; he wasn't responsible for the grievances upon which the war was based, and---believe me---there was borderline-nothing (at least nothing plausible) that he could have done to avert the war. The one most responsible and most directly responsible for the alienation of Polaris and the issues that led to the war of last August was Electron Sponge; by the time he left the office of emperor for the second time, he had generated such hostility towards Polaris on the behalf of many of the larger alliances in Cybernations that his removal as emperor did not really change any minds so far as war against Polaris was concerned. In other words, I don't recall any of it having been Grub's fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopherbashi Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 As someone intimately familiar with the government-level affairs in the period to which you're referring, I can confirm to you that this isn't correct. There was all of one month between Grub's appointment as emperor and the declarations of war on his alliance; he wasn't responsible for the grievances upon which the war was based, and---believe me---there was borderline-nothing (at least nothing plausible) that he could have done to avert the war. The one most responsible and most directly responsible for the alienation of Polaris and the issues that led to the war of last August was Electron Sponge; by the time he left the office of emperor for the second time, he had generated such hostility towards Polaris on the behalf of many of the larger alliances in Cybernations that his removal as emperor did not really change any minds so far as war against Polaris was concerned.In other words, I don't recall any of it having been Grub's fault. I believe WildThing was referring to trolling and a percieved heavy-handedness coming from Grub before his time as Emperor as contributing to alienation - not his actions after power was handed over to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Overrated, huh?Going to have to go with Ivan Moldavi, Xiphosis, and Delta1212 On the bright side, at least some people have a high opinion of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) I actually do believe you when you say it. Neat. Honestly, I can't blame you or anyone else in this thread. The same issue from the "underrated" and "rated" threads has carried over to this one; that we can really only see a snapshot of other players from their reputations, public persona, or the state of the alliances they lead. I'd wager many of these overrated alliance leaders are actually quite good, but seeing them worshiped to the extent that they are without watching them in action behind the scenes, or seeing them as an enemy vs. seeing them as an ally, can completely change the impression they give off. The only alliance leaders I know well enough internally and externally to feel comfortable "rating" have lived up to my expectations, though to be fair I am easily impressed. As such, I have no one to add to this thread. Edited October 6, 2009 by Penguin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaaku Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Doitzel ardus Triyun and for those that have seen me in gov, myself (once again, screw you khyber ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doitzel Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) RE: Philosopher and Dilber. I'm not sure you can call what they did diplomacy. In many cases they were more like insurance salesmen. They could sell you just about anything with a whole lot of empty promises, and when you finally realised something was up and backed out your house would get leveled in a freak disaster that definitely didn't involve bulldozers. I don't know, I always found the crafting of vast treaty webs based on deceptive premises (like the WUT was) to be a really bad long-term strategy. As someone intimately familiar with the government-level affairs in the period to which you're referring, I can confirm to you that this isn't correct. There was all of one month between Grub's appointment as emperor and the declarations of war on his alliance; he wasn't responsible for the grievances upon which the war was based, and---believe me---there was borderline-nothing (at least nothing plausible) that he could have done to avert the war. The one most responsible and most directly responsible for the alienation of Polaris and the issues that led to the war of last August was Electron Sponge; by the time he left the office of emperor for the second time, he had generated such hostility towards Polaris on the behalf of many of the larger alliances in Cybernations that his removal as emperor did not really change any minds so far as war against Polaris was concerned.In other words, I don't recall any of it having been Grub's fault. Huh. I am pretty sure that wasn't the party line at the time. Edited October 6, 2009 by Elyat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Brendan Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Gonna have to go with Ivan Moldavi. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's a horrible leader, but he's just so highly rated that nobody can live up to his image, including him. I attribute it to the fact he was gone for so long; his legend was able to grow without any facts to limit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Overrated, huh?Going to have to go with Ivan Moldavi, Xiphosis, and Delta1212 I'd say ditto, but you know... assumes anyone pays you that much mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildThing Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Gopher is right, I was referring to Grub well before he became Emperor. I remember reading threads a long time ago when Grub was practically leading troll squads against Gremlins and people. I know I've always been a fan of a good troll, however most people arn't, and I do honestly believe that even if people don't remember now, Grub certainly played a part in giving Polaris the reputation they had as a pack of trolls, Sponge was just the guy that did it behind the scenes as well as on the front line though, so it's not surprising that Crymson remembers Sponge a hell of a lot more than just some random troll. However, I have a very high opinion of Penguin, and take him at his word when he says Grub was instrumental since becoming Emperor at turning Polaris around. So while I'll take back what I said about him being an overrated leader, I stick by what I said about him helping to alienate people back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogeWilliam Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Well since you want honesty. I don't have anything against these guys b/c I've never been in upper circle of foreign affairs. I'll just go with the facts. Electron Sponge is overrated. He was first relying on the NPO basically. Then, when NpO was more independent, he was defeated and ousted for his behavior. Emperor Moo is overrated. Would it be fair to say that his assumption began the decline of the NPO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 You facepalm a lot though and I'm beginning to wonder if it's maybe just you. This happens when you read OWF too much. *me reads Crymson post As someone intimately familiar with the government-level affairs in the period to which you're referring, I can confirm to you that this isn't correct. <snip> In other words, I don't recall any of it having been Grub's fault. See WildThing? Isn't me, is you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Emperor Moo is overrated. Would it be fair to say that his assumption began the decline of the NPO? Entirely fair. People have been saying it elsewhere for a while now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Un4Gvn1 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Slayer also comes to mind for me as an overrated leader. I'll probably get trolled to hell for saying it, but he was really good at being an asshat sometimes. >_> Slayer's brilliance at the realpolitik aspect of the planet is a trait I respected and looked on with awe. He could get under skins on the OWF and he did it with panache. Overrated? Hardly. He earned his place as one of The Greats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Overrated? Hardly. He earned his place as one of The Greats. In France, maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptGodzilla Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) Ivan is probably on the top of my list as well as others :v Edited October 6, 2009 by CptGodzilla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Somehow, I don't think people realize that angering people is actually the opposite of realpolitik. The guiding tenet is that the ends justify the means, but if the ends are that half the planet hates you, then you aren't really doing so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Obama Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Electron Sponge is overrated. He was first relying on the NPO basically. Then, when NpO was more independent, he was defeated and ousted for his behavior.Emperor Moo is overrated. Would it be fair to say that his assumption began the decline of the NPO? I'm not sure Moo at the moment is highly rated enough to be considered overrated. As for Sponge, he is undoubtedly one of the more skilled leaders to come and play this game. However, I would agree with you that he wasn't the great leader he has been painted to be by some. As for the Grub argument, considering what Polar has been through under his reign and their incredible rebuilding(politically as well as obviously stat wise), he is underrated if anything IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebel Virginia Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 They were legion, though. Im not denying the talent he did possess, but that didnt excuse some of the things he did, and the general contempt he often had for others.An extremely specialized individual, yes, but not nearly as deserving of credit as many others give him. I'll have to disagree with you here. He was talented, however, eventually people wised up to his tricks and methods, and he became less effective. That, in addition to his inactivity and piping in when not knowing the situation, generally made him look ridiculous after all while, causing some to forget that way back then he was incredibly good at what he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Bad Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Somehow, I don't think people realize that angering people is actually the opposite of realpolitik. The guiding tenet is that the ends justify the means, but if the ends are that half the planet hates you, then you aren't really doing so well. If half the Planet does not hate you then you are doing nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crymson Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 I believe WildThing was referring to trolling and a percieved heavy-handedness coming from Grub before his time as Emperor as contributing to alienation - not his actions after power was handed over to him. I misread, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) If half the Planet does not hate you then you are doing nothing. If half he planet hates you and you haven't done anything worthy of balancing that, then you'd have been better off not doing anything. Edited October 6, 2009 by Delta1212 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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