Situation Normal: Anti Fraud Update

[Stetson76]

As of now, Lord Exodus is being treated like any other Nemesis applicant. We are currently looking into the nature of this guide deletion and deciding if his deletion of guides was fair or not. However, should he be accepted, which will only happen if the guides are deemed his to take, then he will be under the complete and utter protection of Nemesis. This has been the policy for Nemesis applicants in the past and this will not change. We would like to have the issue resolved favourably for both parties, but in the case of this not happening we will defend our applicant/member, politically and militarily.

I would respectfully ask who you are looking into this with? He claims they are his, and I've made our point very clear to you.

Either, they are the alliance's who he edited them for or they are his. If his, Nemesis' position, (as told to me) is that it was perfectly valid for him to delete them.

There doesn't seem to be much to discuss here, we merely were clarifying our policy regarding the work of our government members belonging to the alliance, and people's curiousity took over.

The fact is that he was not asked to leave, in fact he was being considered for a promotion. (Obviously, dodged a bullet there.) He clearly stated that their deletion was an "act of impertinance" and not just him taking his ball home after he was done playing.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

There doesn't seem to be much to discuss here, we merely were clarifying our policy regarding the work of our government members belonging to the alliance, and people's curiousity took over.

Please don't insult our intelligence. This is a clear shot at Nemesis. It's just asking for "WHO?"

[Rickyman1984]

If you wish to discuss this further Stetson, I would remind you that you are registered on our forums and can communicate with our membership there if you wish.

I would have hoped this could be handled amongst our two alliances in private. That being said, we will treat Lord Exodus like any other applicant. Nemesis has had a history of giving people who have made mistakes a second chance and having them go on to become productive and honorable members. I don't think one mistake should doom someone from enjoying the camaraderie and fun an alliance can bring so we're letting both parties have their say in this.

Stetson, If there is anything I can do to either discuss your perspective or make an amicable resolution to this situation please send me a message. However we will not be bullied into bailing on an applicant, even if he has made a mistake in the past.

[Haflinger]

I would have hoped this could be handled amongst our two alliances in private.

They changed their charter because of this incident. Charter amendments are commonly announced here, in public.

[Mathias]

Author's rights is gone too?

Karma strikes again!

[Jacapo Saladin]

If you wish to discuss this further Stetson, I would remind you that you are registered on our forums and can communicate with our membership there if you wish.

I would have hoped this could be handled amongst our two alliances in private. That being said, we will treat Lord Exodus like any other applicant. Nemesis has had a history of giving people who have made mistakes a second chance and having them go on to become productive and honorable members. I don't think one mistake should doom someone from enjoying the camaraderie and fun an alliance can bring so we're letting both parties have their say in this.

Stetson, If there is anything I can do to either discuss your perspective or make an amicable resolution to this situation please send me a message. However we will not be bullied into bailing on an applicant, even if he has made a mistake in the past.

Then I guess it would have been better for Nemesis to be a bit more receptive to working things out in private.

[ChairmanHal]

I can take any guide, clean up the spelling, punctuation, grammar and such and claim to be the editor of a new edition of a work, but doesn't make me the author, nor grant me ownership of that work.

If on the other hand I did all those things and contributed a significant amount of new material, then I could rightly claim an author credit, along with the original author, to the new edition and depending on the contract I had, the rights to material I contributed. This would mean that if the owner of the original work wanted to use my edition of that work, they would need my permission either through contract or a legal agreement of some sort down the road.

RL example: Textbooks for schools are edited on a regular basis. Most often this is to ensure they have the most up-to-date material on the subject in them when they find their way into a student's hands (more cynically, because coming out with new editions forces students to purchase new books more often rather than used...but I digress). At no point would it be proper for me as the editor of a textbook at McGraw-Hill to simply quit the publisher and delete all the electronic copies of the textbook on my way out, no matter how much blood, sweat, and tears I put into said textbook while I worked there.

At minimum, a formal apology and copies of all the deleted guides should be delivered to SNAFU. They have been gracious throughout this from what I've seen and that favor should be returned.

[Stetson76]

Please don't insult our intelligence. This is a clear shot at Nemesis. It's just asking for "WHO?"

You can try and peer behind the bushes all you would like, however you will see nothing other than little old me banging my head against the wall.

We have had no dealings with Nemesis prior to this other than our friendship with Daggarz, and would have expected that this situation would have been of little consequence had we been respectfully dealt with. That's not to say that Poyples and Draov were not perfect gentlemen, but the sum total of their answer was that the property of our alliance i.e. the guides, and forums that they resided on were not ours to defend or seek satisfaction for their being vandalized.

If this has turned into an issue that Nemesis feels is directed at them as a shot, it may be because they don't understand why it appears many people feel this was a questionable action by Exodus.

[Heft]

Well if he's accepted as a member..of course. If his status continues as an applicant..yes. It's the same routine at any alliance really. You wouldn't want us attacking NSO apps, correct? Perhaps our Q&A system is different, but it is in place for everyone to take advantage of. I'm sure NSO would agree everyone deserves a second chance as well as home.

NSO has a pretty liberal policy on accepting and handling nations at war and the like, and even we wouldn't go so far as to provide full protection to someone who did something like this. I honestly can't fathom why you're holding this position.

[daggarz]

They changed their charter because of this incident. Charter amendments are commonly announced here, in public.

True, but there was no need to deviate from the actual charter announcement and continue onto a heavily biased and detailed account as to "why".

As in any conflict there are two sides to a story.

Stetson, as a close friend of SNAFU's I would have hoped that this nastiness could have been avoided.

It is frustrating for you I realise, you must feel slighted, but for us to forsake the safety of an applicant for a small feud between a bitter ex member and a hurt albeit surprised leader would be an injustice on our part.

Lord Exodus is a good person, you know this otherwise you wouldn't have even considered him for government, he worked his $@! off for SNAFU and in the end he felt ignored and unappreciated. So yeah in a moment of irrationality he did something that probably wasn't the nicest thing, but in all honesty, it should be a learning curve. Some people need to be appreciated for their work, especially when they work so hard and for you to turn around and want to war him over it only solidifies the feelings of mistrust and the idea that he did what was right.

I really hope this can be solved appropriately but as we told you. We will not let you war an applicant of Nemesis and should he be accepted, the matter will have to be dropped.

We could force him to apologise to you but what good would that do? A forced admission of guilt is no admission at all.

Take Care Stetson

P.S.

Fathomable now heft?

Edited September 19, 2009 by daggarz

[President S O]

Regardless of your inflated ego it should be noted our two alliances hold a treaty. Mutual respect of that document would be appreciated.

Looks like your allies think you're doing the wrong thing also, they are not wrong.

[Gopherbashi]

I can understand Exodus' concerns about his ownership of those guides, but to delete guides without giving your alliance a chance to create some new ones before you do so is just bad form.

But I'm sure that Nemesis will be more than happy to help SNAFU in rebuilding their guides if Lord Exodus is accepted, in the spirit of friendship and all that, right?

[Believland]

Please don't insult our intelligence. This is a clear shot at Nemesis. It's just asking for "WHO?"

Z3PO you're full of it

[Zoomzoomzoom]

NSO has a pretty liberal policy on accepting and handling nations at war and the like, and even we wouldn't go so far as to provide full protection to someone who did something like this. I honestly can't fathom why you're holding this position.

I don't know how many times we'll have to state it, but we take everything into consideration and then decide. Perhaps nobody outside Nemesis will understand and that's fine. So continue to fathom, but remember we're not judging by one mistake.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

I can understand Exodus' concerns about his ownership of those guides, but to delete guides without giving your alliance a chance to create some new ones before you do so is just bad form.

But I'm sure that Nemesis will be more than happy to help SNAFU in rebuilding their guides if Lord Exodus is accepted, in the spirit of friendship and all that, right?

SNAFU stated that have no interest in the return of the guides. I believe it was also stated in this very thread that they have already constructed new shiny guides. If they like they may have the old Planet Express guide.

[ChairmanHal]

A forced admission of guilt is no admission at all.

You basically just said he did something stupid in a moment of anger. If that isn't the basis for issuing an apology, then what is?

Note he should *want* to apologize to SNAFU for acting like an arseclown. If he can't manage it, then what exactly to you expect of this guy if the crap hits the fan? I'm guessing he's going to lash out stupidly and cause you more problems than you had to begin with.

[Stetson76]

If you wish to discuss this further Stetson, I would remind you that you are registered on our forums and can communicate with our membership there if you wish.

I would have hoped this could be handled amongst our two alliances in private. That being said, we will treat Lord Exodus like any other applicant. Nemesis has had a history of giving people who have made mistakes a second chance and having them go on to become productive and honorable members. I don't think one mistake should doom someone from enjoying the camaraderie and fun an alliance can bring so we're letting both parties have their say in this.

Stetson, If there is anything I can do to either discuss your perspective or make an amicable resolution to this situation please send me a message. However we will not be bullied into bailing on an applicant, even if he has made a mistake in the past.

I appreciate the consideration Rickyman, and that of Draov and Poyples when I spoke with them in private. I would never have considered bullying you, or having you bullied, in fact, our OP clearly states that as it is your alliance's official position that this sort of actively is fine, we would not be pursuing any further recourse as long as he is an applicant/member of your. It is our belief that as a sovereign alliance you have every right to admit whom you would like and protect them to the fullest. My approach to Nemesis in the begining was as much a heads up as it was expected to be a fairly simple notification that we considered him a rogue. It was not until I was told that, that status would not be recognized because he hadn't done anything wrong that I came to the conclusion that a change in our policies would be required so, should something like this ever happen again, we would have our charter to fall back on to clear up any misunderstandings.

I can take any guide, clean up the spelling, punctuation, grammar and such and claim to be the editor of a new edition of a work, but doesn't make me the author, nor grant me ownership of that work.

If on the other hand I did all those things and contributed a significant amount of new material, then I could rightly claim an author credit, along with the original author, to the new edition and depending on the contract I had, the rights to material I contributed. This would mean that if the owner of the original work wanted to use my edition of that work, they would need my permission either through contract or a legal agreement of some sort down the road.

RL example: Textbooks for schools are edited on a regular basis. Most often this is to ensure they have the most up-to-date material on the subject in them when they find their way into a student's hands (more cynically, because coming out with new editions forces students to purchase new books more often rather than used...but I digress). At no point would it be proper for me as the editor of a textbook at McGraw-Hill to simply quit the publisher and delete all the electronic copies of the textbook on my way out, no matter how much blood, sweat, and tears I put into said textbook while I worked there.

At minimum, a formal apology and copies of all the deleted guides should be delivered to SNAFU. They have been gracious throughout this from what I've seen and that favor should be returned.

I appreciate that suggestion Hal, but we've already rewritten the most important guides so we can continue our training program. The others are being worked on, or have a less urgent nature.

[daggarz]

You basically just said he did something stupid in a moment of anger. If that isn't the basis for issuing an apology, then what is?

Note he should *want* to apologize to SNAFU for acting like an arseclown. If he can't manage it, then what exactly to you expect of this guy if the crap hits the fan? I'm guessing he's going to lash out stupidly and cause you more problems than you had to begin with.

If you read what I wrote, I actually states that the aggressive response of SNAFU has solidified his idea that it was the right thing to do.

If everyone was to lower their guns and Lord Exodus was allowed a chance to explain himself not just to Nemesis but Stetson as well, I am sure a really good resolution will come about.

Old friends shouldnt fight, and I believe Exodus and Stetson are just that, year long friends.

[Kryievla]

I don't know how many times we'll have to state it, but we take everything into consideration and then decide. Perhaps nobody outside Nemesis will understand and that's fine. So continue to fathom, but remember we're not judging by one mistake.

The Q&A bit is perfectly understandable. That you will not allow an alliance to punish someone who destroyed their work, then rubbed their face in it, is the appalling bit.

[Believland]

Daggerz, you know as well as I do, that SNAFU has not or ever raised their guns... EVER

[Bernkastel]

Stealing or deleting guides, same thing to me and should receive the same punishment just like everyone else who does it. He should pay for said crime, whether it be a public apology or facing war for a short period of time. Nemesis is just being silly, just from my observations in this thread. It's even more telling when their own allies are saying disapproving remarks.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Beatrice

[James Wilson]

Looks like your allies think you're doing the wrong thing also, they are not wrong.

Its the Big Bad...did you expect anything else? B)

Note, thats his own opinion, note the alliance as a whole .

Edited September 19, 2009 by James Wilson

[daggarz]

Daggerz, you know as well as I do, that SNAFU has not or ever raised their guns... EVER

Metaphorically speaking BEazy.

SNAFU is a gentle alliance full of great people, but rather than talk to Lord Exodus about the situation, he was immediately declared a rogue.

As I said, I think it will be resolved if LE and Stetson have a chat. And if battlepuppy comes and says hi to me.

[Stetson76]

If you read what I wrote, I actually states that the aggressive response of SNAFU has solidified his idea that it was the right thing to do.

If everyone was to lower their guns and Lord Exodus was allowed a chance to explain himself not just to Nemesis but Stetson as well, I am sure a really good resolution will come about.

Old friends shouldnt fight, and I believe Exodus and Stetson are just that, year long friends.

Well, I thought that we were.

And sadly Daggarz, Lord Exodus has explained himself to Nemesis in his application thread, and other than you and at most a couple of other people, the majority of the feeling was that what he did was just fine and dandy.

He was declared an enemy of SNAFU and remains such today, however no attempt to give a reason for his actions have been forthcoming other than his words stating that the guides deletion was an "act of impertinance" and Nemesis' assertion that his editing of the guides gives him complete ownership of them.

[Voodoo Nova]

This entire situation is just plain silly.