Warning

[kamino]

So then maybe the only way to really get to know the NPO, rather than reading your papers on wiki it would behoove me to join the NPO and go through the academy (keeping a skeptical mind) and learn first hand? But I do not think the NPO would be happy to accept someone who so blatantly makes accusations.

[Brenann]

So then maybe the only way to really get to know the NPO, rather than reading your papers on wiki it would behoove me to join the NPO and go through the academy (keeping a skeptical mind) and learn first hand? But I do not think the NPO would be happy to accept someone who so blatantly makes accusations.

OR maybe get to know NPO members first before you say we are all evil... You see an institution where there is individuals who make up the whole. We are not a mindless machine despite what people think, a lot of the time we share similar thoughts, but that is because we all share similar goals for our Alliance. We want to be the best, and who doesn't?

EDIT: missing word

Edited September 5, 2009 by Brenann

[Bob Janova]

It's really hilarious how Francesca has turned into Francoist slogan mouthpiece no. 417. You used to have interesting thoughts, but apparently you have to keep those out of sight now and quote extracts from the gospel according to St. Vladimir instead.

The OP is pretty ridiculous, though. The Hegemony has been defeated, so has the NPO, and to attempt to drive them from the world entirely would simply make us as bad as they were. And there remains some hope that the NPO has actually learnt that trying to rule the world through devious means and through instilling fear in the rest of the alliances isn't a good way forward, and will be a good alliance to have around.

[Francesca]

It's really hilarious how Francesca has turned into Francoist slogan mouthpiece no. 417. You used to have interesting thoughts, but apparently you have to keep those out of sight now and quote extracts from the gospel according to St. Vladimir instead.

The vast majority of the things I have stated in this announcement have been my own words. I eventually got tired and just quoted from Vladimir's work because I couldn't be bothered rewriting what had already been written. I'm assuming my interesting thoughts were the ideas I presented before I became pro-NPO? Specifically, the things you agreed with?

[Mathias]

Your point is? Everyone knows NPO is bouncing back. That's what you do after a war.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Mathias

[Azaghul]

Pretty much everyone expected NPO to start growing and move up the rankings again. There's simply no way to keep an alliance of that many members with that many experienced players and well developed nations (in improvements/wonders/etc.) down and out of sanction without permanent war or really extreme peace terms.

Does that mean they could be a threat? There's a possibility, but even with their regrowth it's gonna take a long time for them to get back to their previous level of strength during which time other alliances can grow. They are unlikely to ever have the kind of lead they had over everyone but IRON again.

Their system of political dominance is in complete shambles. The few allies they have left are in a similar state, and their relations with most of the other significant blocks in the game are poor.

Also Francoism doesn't really have any ironclad concepts except to do and be whatever is best for NPO: to act in your own self interest. Beyond that it's just saying what's in NPO's self interest and fitting the situation.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Azaghul

[Krunk the Great]

Francoism apparently has a nation though so um that might be iron clad Azaghul

[Kzoppistan]

Well, Kamino, I'm not going to bother debating any of the points mentioned because, frankly, I don't waste my time examining the particulars of each alliance when under the trappings there is very little difference at all.

Giving any attention to whatever "doctrine" espoused by a group just gives it propaganda power when in reality it's only the smoke that covers the true identical drive of every alliance.

That said, you have an excellent start as a rhetorician and philosopher. Might I suggest, that instead of attacking points directly, you lure other's conclusions out with a well-devised string of questions, to which the answers lead only to your benefit?

Edited September 5, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Locke]

I have concluded that you are one of two things:

1) Ignorant/deluded/clueless

or

2) Really starved for attention.

Possibly both. Karma, for what it's worth, did all they could. Aside from eternal war, there's little else they could do; don't forget, terms are supposed to be more appealing than war for the opposing party, 'tis why they accepted them at all. Were the terms any more harsh, NPO simply wouldn't have accepted them, and indeed it's what had been happening for quite some time. Karma did what they could to accomplish their objective, to knock NPO down a few notches, and indeed they suceeded at goal.

Now, on to the "evil NPO" sentiments; it's silly. For one thing, no one alliance will ever dominate this world alone. NPO rebuilding a bit won't allow them to rule. To rule, one needs allies. NPO was allowed to rule because much of the world went along with them, willingly or unwillingly. Regardless, they were allowed to do so. In this day in age, I don't think that would be the case. If, let's say, NPO rode to war tomorrow and called all its friends and allies to fight with them to try to conquer Bob, you know what would happen? The alliances once under Karma would simply go and do the same thing. It would be pointless for NPO to do such a thing and would give no gain to themselves. NPO goverment, believe it or not, is not comprised of idiots. ( Brennan )

[jer]

If they choose not to stay that is their choice. So there is nothing stopping them from leaving if they don't like it.

So you are telling me that I have imagined NPO members being forced into staying on a technicality (you were at war with Jarheads but it did not require high NS nations, yet they were forced to stay for the entire conflict)? And you are telling me that I am making up the idea that even previously respected members of your alliance have been labelled traitors and harassed upon leaving? There are two reasons that stop people from leaving - one physical rule ('we're "at war", leave and you'll be attacked') and one emotional one (no-one wants to be insulted upon leaving an alliance).

OR maybe get to know NPO members first before you say we are all evil

And have them blindly repeat falsities as you have done with the previous quote? What's the point?

Edited September 5, 2009 by Aimee Mann

[Machiabelly]

2 points.

1. A year ago this thread could very well have got you or your alliance rolled, now not so much. Therefore it is now "better", at least for you.

b. Francesca...you are tired of all the hate towards NPO? You have been a member for less than a month. You will be dead with an ulcer by the time you get to 3 years like some of the core members. If you do not want to deal with the blind hatred, don't join the biggest target of hatred on Planet Bob.

edited because I missppelled two 2 letter words.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Machiabelly

[Brenann]

So you are telling me that I have imagined NPO members being forced into staying on a technicality (you were at war with Jarheads but it did not require high NS nations, yet they were forced to stay for the entire conflict)? And you are telling me that I am making up the idea that even previously respected members of your alliance have been labelled traitors and harassed upon leaving? There are two reasons that stop people from leaving - one physical rule ('we're "at war", leave and you'll be attacked') and one emotional one (no-one wants to be insulted upon leaving an alliance).

And have them blindly repeat falsities as you have done with the previous quote? What's the point?

Leaving while at war is something a lot of Alliances say that is not allowed, bad form to ditch when the going gets tough. In the specific case you were mentioning there were some members allowed to leave by the grace of our Emperor. So it has happened.

Then we turn to those who leave during War the encompasses the entire alliance. Such as in the Karma war... damn right they will be chased out. The rest of us stayed and burned.

I have not seen a member who was in good standing that left during a time of peace that has been harassed. Obviously there are times that leaving will spark anger and resentment (such as during war) from the rest. If people choose to leave then, well they know people will be upset, and telling people they cant be upset in a thread that usually the Original poster can not see due to getting demasked is a good way to vent those frustrations. Free speech and all that good stuff.

So unless we really adopt the premise that we REALLY are heartless robots with out feelings and emotions, there WILL always be anger and aggression in comparison to the love and compassion we share in our home. Not really so different from most alliances.

So yes you are right we are a passionate people who have the freedom to voice those passions. So maybe we do have two ways to not leave the Alliance.

Just so you know that post of mine you quoted was in reference to those in our academy not full members.

And who decides the absolute truth? I don't. I will talk about what I see and what I believe. Those that know me, know I am a no !@#$%^&* person. I will tell you what I think.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Brenann

[Augustus Autumn]

Please indicate which of your freedoms are currently being oppressed by Pacifica.

[Locke]

Leaving while at war is something a lot of Alliances say that is not allowed, bad form to ditch when the going gets tough. In the specific case you were mentioning there were some members allowed to leave by the grace of our Emperor. So it has happened.

Then we turn to those who leave during War the encompasses the entire alliance. Such as in the Karma war... damn right they will be chased out. The rest of us stayed and burned.

I have not seen a member who was in good standing that left during a time of peace that has been harassed. Obviously there are times that leaving will spark anger and resentment (such as during war) from the rest. If people choose to leave then, well they know people will be upset, and telling people they cant be upset in a thread that usually the Original poster can not see due to getting demasked is a good way to vent those frustrations. Free speech and all that good stuff.

So unless we really adopt the premise that we REALLY are heartless robots with out feelings and emotions, there WILL always be anger and aggression in comparison to the love and compassion we share in our home. Not really so different from most alliances.

So yes you are right we are a passionate people who have the freedom to voice those passions. So maybe we do have two ways to not leave the Alliance.

Just so you know that post of mine you quoted was in reference to those in our academy not full members.

And who decides the absolute truth? I don't. I will talk about what I see and what I believe. Those that know me, know I am a no !@#$%^&* person. I will tell you what I think.

And just to clarify, you do allow members to leave during war if they request dispensation and talk it out with the gov first, right?

Please indicate which of your freedoms are currently being oppressed by Pacifica.

You guys need to start opressing the freedom to whine.

[Augustus Autumn]

You guys need to start oppressing the freedom to whine.

It's on my action-item list, worry not.

[HeinousOne]

Comrade Zhadum argued for free speech, as he made clear in the conclusion of his work:

"We live in free speech, nothing the Order can do will stop that. The only way to stop free speech is to accept the push its "advocates" propound towards international government. When their vision of a world where they are allowed to say anything they want without fear of anything being said back to them is realized, that is how you will know free speech is dead. Until such a time, call the impostors, the fakers, and the phonies what they are, pretenders attempting to warp the meaning of freedom to their perverse and twisted ends of silencing all opposition to them. So long as we remember the price of free speech is others speaking freely, it will live on in this world. It is with that closing thought I ask you to stand by free speech and oppose those who would use the idea of free expression as a warped tool by which to silence their enemies."

Moreover, you seem to be complaining that Francoism doesn't endorse the Order extending its statehood over the entire globe in order to act as a world police. I'm not sure I understand how this is a criticism of Francoism's tyrannical nature. Indeed, if we did do such a thing I expect you would be here (rightfully) complaining about our violation of your sovereignty. Damned if we do, damned if we don't?

Beyond this your only concrete complaint seems to be that we are cooperating with other red alliances through Red Dawn. If this is the path to conquest as you claim, why are you not decrying every other major alliance in the world, since they are almost without exception a part of a colour unity bloc themselves (though I always knew that ODN lot were up to something).

I really do not see how you can speak about how NPO believes in free speech when it is infamous for it's Radio Silence and not to mention silencing individual members as well.

Indeed.

I've occasionally made jokes with Dilber and Triyun about how the Council is a sign of the NPO becoming overrun by democracy.

In all alliances, the ordinary members have a strong influence on how the alliance conducts itself. Without them, alliance leadership doesn't have any power, and so it must take their concerns into account or find itself ruling over nobody but itself.

This is even true in Invicta, possibly the most centrally-controlled dictatorship on Bob.

I realize you are just joking around but the Imperial Officers, whom are extremely intelligent, figured out a way to have some modicum of control over who remains a councilor. Its far from being an independent democratically voted for Council.

Leaving while at war is something a lot of Alliances say that is not allowed, bad form to ditch when the going gets tough. In the specific case you were mentioning there were some members allowed to leave by the grace of our Emperor. So it has happened.

Then we turn to those who leave during War the encompasses the entire alliance. Such as in the Karma war... damn right they will be chased out. The rest of us stayed and burned.

I have not seen a member who was in good standing that left during a time of peace that has been harassed. Obviously there are times that leaving will spark anger and resentment (such as during war) from the rest. If people choose to leave then, well they know people will be upset, and telling people they cant be upset in a thread that usually the Original poster can not see due to getting demasked is a good way to vent those frustrations. Free speech and all that good stuff.

So unless we really adopt the premise that we REALLY are heartless robots with out feelings and emotions, there WILL always be anger and aggression in comparison to the love and compassion we share in our home. Not really so different from most alliances.

So yes you are right we are a passionate people who have the freedom to voice those passions. So maybe we do have two ways to not leave the Alliance.

Just so you know that post of mine you quoted was in reference to those in our academy not full members.

And who decides the absolute truth? I don't. I will talk about what I see and what I believe. Those that know me, know I am a no !@#$%^&* person. I will tell you what I think.

Now Brenann, you really expect anyone to believe that the Jarhead war was a tough time for you guys? Most of your nations were relegated to simply sending aid to Alpha Squad for that war. It was simply practice for your lower nations. There can only be two reasons for you holding in nations at that point, you were making them pay out money for that silly war or else or it was about keeping some of your older nations from going over to NSO. The fact that your government was actually threatening nations with attacks should they leave at that time even though there was nothing for them to do just goes to show that this freedom some of your comrades speak of truly does not exist in entirety. The declaration of official state of war during the Jarhead war was a complete sham and most of the world realizes that I bet.

[Jack Diorno]

It's really hilarious how Francesca has turned into Francoist slogan mouthpiece no. 417. You used to have interesting thoughts, but apparently you have to keep those out of sight now and quote extracts from the gospel according to St. Vladimir instead.

The OP is pretty ridiculous, though. The Hegemony has been defeated, so has the NPO, and to attempt to drive them from the world entirely would simply make us as bad as they were. And there remains some hope that the NPO has actually learnt that trying to rule the world through devious means and through instilling fear in the rest of the alliances isn't a good way forward, and will be a good alliance to have around.

No man speaks more truth then Bob Janova. Though I hope Pacifica does try the same thing again, no other large alliances really have the gut for it and it would make for a lot of drama and we may even have sides *dies of excitement*

Realistically though Mr. OP, NPO has been utterly wrecked, it will take them years to build up top tier nations capable of taking on the core alliances of Karma, they won't be oppressing our free speech anytime soon buddy. Their only real chance is to persuade less war torn alliances of signing with them.

EDIT: whoooops

Edited September 5, 2009 by Jack Diorno

[Brenann]

Now Brenann, you really expect anyone to believe that the Jarhead war was a tough time for you guys? Most of your nations were relegated to simply sending aid to Alpha Squad for that war. It was simply practice for your lower nations. There can only be two reasons for you holding in nations at that point, you were making them pay out money for that silly war or else or it was about keeping some of your older nations from going over to NSO. The fact that your government was actually threatening nations with attacks should they leave at that time even though there was nothing for them to do just goes to show that this freedom some of your comrades speak of truly does not exist in entirety. The declaration of official state of war during the Jarhead war was a complete sham and most of the world realizes that I bet.

I never said the Jarheads war was a tough time. You are right most of it was target practice for Alpha and some of Beta. I do believe that regardless of how it was perceived or first approached that before the end of that foray the nations that wanted to leave and talked to Moo were allowed. Locke, I believe that answers your question as well.

That war was unique simply due to NSO coming on to the world scene with Ivan at the head and there were quite a few members who had served with Ivan wanting to go there specifically, where as if NSO wasn't around then, per chance they would not want to leave? I dont know.

Although, regardless, I believe that if your Alliance is in a state of war with one or more alliances regardless of size, that members should stay until its over. That is my personal belief.

[Jazzy95]

I was following this thread but to many people are commenting it so I'm just gonna say what I think:

I personally hate and always will hate the NPO (Mainly because I'm banned from their channel for nothing) but at the same time I am envious that they can grow so fast and seem to have such stability. I think the alliance itself has never REALLY had any bad policies (Except no other red alliances rule).

[Haflinger]

I realize you are just joking around but the Imperial Officers, whom are extremely intelligent, figured out a way to have some modicum of control over who remains a councilor. Its far from being an independent democratically voted for Council.

Oh of course. But it's a lot more democratic than anything we do.

The point is that the Emperor's and IOs' power is based upon the support of their membership, just as Invicta's power is based on the support of our membership. If that membership leaves or betrays us, then we don't have that power anymore. Thus we try to incorporate at least some of their concerns and beliefs into our practices, because that's how we retain support.

[FiremandDave]

I was following this thread but to many people are commenting it so I'm just gonna say what I think:

I personally hate and always will hate the NPO (Mainly because I'm banned from their channel for nothing) but at the same time I am envious that they can grow so fast and seem to have such stability. I think the alliance itself has never REALLY had any bad policies (Except no other red alliances rule).

So you hate us because of a ban? Have you discussed it with an op from said channel? Seriously, most people with ops in #nsa will at least research the reason for the ban. It might have even been a temporary ban that was forgotten, it's happened before. I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again, I'd invite the haters into #nsa on coldfront to chat with us. If you're going to hate us, at least hate us after you've talked to us and see what the membership is really about.

[Hell Scream]

OHH AMM GEE. You figured out their plans, sir!

I like the "economical unity=conquest"part. Is that from daily Karma propaganda?

Edited September 5, 2009 by Hell Scream

[Lord of Destruction]

In short, Kamino, you have no idea what you're talking about. The Order is both statistically and politically in shambles, and to claim otherwise is ignorant. They will grow again, and they will very likely regain their ties to the world around them as well. However, for now they're unable to do a single thing, and they haven't done anything since they struck OV. The Karma War was fought, and it is now over. I would like it if people could grasp the concept - it is over. The war wasn't supposed to kill off the Order, no matter how much you wanted it to happen. The leaders of the alliances that were in charge of the Karma Coalition knew that doing so would forever ruin their reputation. This war wasn't fought so that the peopel who wanted NPO gone would finally see it happen. It was about finally beating the NPO. That's basically it. The Order was at war for more than 3 months. It was a complete victory for the Karma forces. Take it, and be on with it. Stop with the ridiculous mindless hate towards the Order. It makes absolutely no sense.

Is that from daily Karma propaganda?

Karma stopped existing once the war was over. Didn't you get the memo?

Edited September 5, 2009 by Lord of Destruction

[Hydro]

It's really hilarious how Francesca has turned into Francoist slogan mouthpiece no. 417.

Teah, really...Wtf is this? I thought you were all about the touted ideals of Vox-Populi and now all of a sudden you're joining NPO and are acting like a stooge? Have I got you confused with someone else?

/me scratches head

[TehChron]

No man speaks more truth then Bob Janova.

Oh, Diorno, I can always look to you for a good toadie line. Brought a tear of laughter to my eye.