Warning

[kamino]

There are those in this world who feel safer today than they were yesterday. There are those who feel that the days ahead are brighter than the days behind, that they made a difference in the karma war, that the forces of evil have been dealt irreparable damage and that they will never again rule with an iron fist as they once had. This is a false sense of security.

Do to the incompetence and impotence of the forces of karma to finish the job against the NPO and the Hegemony, and by allowing them to live, allowing the ideology which threatens the security of all by placing unlimited power in the hands of the elitist few, and our future is in jeopardy. The leaders of the forces of karma, in there greed, sought to gain technology, money, land and infrastructure. Thinking they can stay ahead and keep the hegemony in check with such gifts, have forsaken those they were to protect for there own benefit.

The evil forces of the hegemony are once again on the rise. The NPO has gone from number 12 to number ten in a few short weeks, they have issued a new maldavi doctrine which is hidden with under lying messages and open to interpitation, they seek to unite the red sphere economically, which is the first step to conquest. They have always been and always will be a threat. But now our future is even more grim. They will seek there revenge on those who have harmed her.

But let me be clear, the NPO herself is not the threat; the ideal of Francoism in which she enshrines is the true threat, an ideal that is changed from one emperor to the next to suit his needs, an ideal that gives him unlimited power by playing off the laws of nature and other ignorance. The ideal creates a system where conquest is not an option but rather a way of life.

One of the gravest mistakes ever made on planet bob is allowing the NPO, allowing Francoism to survive. The NPO will return to exact its revenge, and may Admin have mercy on us all. Now because of this fault military conquest is no longer an option, now other means must be sought and exploited to bring her down to let freedom reign. The NPO and her minions will return and our mistake will cost us dearly.

[lebubu]

We're doomed.

[Francesca]

Oh God, it's another of these announcements........... the New Pacific Order is evil, we are heartless, we aren't human beings just like everyone else, yada, yada.

There are those in this world who feel safer today than they were yesterday. There are those who feel that the days ahead are brighter than the days behind, that they made a difference in the karma war, that the forces of evil have been dealt irreparable damage and that they will never again rule with an iron fist as they once had. This is a false sense of security.

Do to the incompetence and impotence of the forces of karma to finish the job against the NPO and the Hegemony, and by allowing them to live, allowing the ideology which threatens the security of all by placing unlimited power in the hands of the elitist few, and our future is in jeopardy. The leaders of the forces of karma, in there greed, sought to gain technology, money, land and infrastructure. Thinking they can stay ahead and keep the hegemony in check with such gifts, have forsaken those they were to protect for there own benefit.

The evil forces of the hegemony are once again on the rise. The NPO has gone from number 12 to number ten in a few short weeks,

Do I need to lend you a tinfoil hat? I used to be a Voxian myself, I despised the New Pacific Order and fought against them with all I had. Then I actually spoke to them for the first time, during the Karma War, and came to realise that they really weren't heartless monsters. Like all alliances, we have good and bad people, but seriously while we were #1 we didn't act any differently to how anyone else would, except perhaps that we [OOC] play this game [/OOC] better than many other people.

Oh, shock! Oh, horror! We're actually growing again, because *nobody* ever expected that!! Perhaps Karma actually considered that eventuality? Perhaps they gave us terms anyway, because of the mounting international pressures?

they have issued a new maldavi doctrine which is hidden with under lying messages and open to interpitation,

We issued no such Moldavi Doctrine. That was the New Sith Order. Oh, and please, be specific about what underlying messages there are in it? Have you read it? And how is it "open to interpretation?"

they seek to unite the red sphere economically, which is the first step to conquest. They have always been and always will be a threat.

The unification of the red sphere? You've just been complaining about the Moldavi Doctrine, and now you're complaining that we're not only permitting other alliances to grow and flourish on red, we're actually befriending them? Can't have it both ways. Seriously, as I said today earlier on IRC, my sister can't kick my small dog without it being NPO's fault.

But now our future is even more grim. They will seek there revenge on those who have harmed her.

Revenge? Yes, quite possibly. We're human, we're motivated by that sort of thing, just like everyone else.

But let me be clear, the NPO herself is not the threat; the ideal of Francoism in which she enshrines is the true threat, an ideal that is changed from one emperor to the next to suit his needs, an ideal that gives him unlimited power by playing off the laws of nature and other ignorance. The ideal creates a system where conquest is not an option but rather a way of life.

If Francoism merely changed to suit Vladimir and the New Pacific Order, you'd expect it to have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of flaws and contradictions. I dare you to name one. Have you even read Vladimir's works on Francoism?

One of the gravest mistakes ever made on planet bob is allowing the NPO, allowing Francoism to survive. The NPO will return to exact its revenge, and may Admin have mercy on us all. Now because of this fault military conquest is no longer an option, now other means must be sought and exploited to bring her down to let freedom reign. The NPO and her minions will return and our mistake will cost us dearly.

"The Pacificans are coming!!!!!!! THE END IS NEAR!!!!!!"

Edited September 5, 2009 by Francesca

[silentkiller]

Dear lord have mercy. What type of alliance have I joined

[kamino]

My apologies for the confusion with the moldavi doctrine, my bad, got them mixed up.

[Francesca]

My apologies for the confusion with the moldavi doctrine, my bad, got them mixed up.

Any comment on the rest of my rebuttal?

[President Kuse]

My apologies for the confusion with the moldavi doctrine, my bad, got them mixed up.

We did not follow through. Sadly we allowed this to happen. Not my call though.

[kamino]

nope sorry, the rest of my oppinion still stands.

[Francesca]

nope sorry, the rest of my oppinion still stands.

"I've got no rebuttal to your points, but NPO is still evil. waaah"

[kamino]

Nice troll.

[FiremandDave]

Well, thank you. I would invite you to join us on ColdFront in #nsa and take the time to have a conversation with us. I would certainly enjoy an intelligent conversation with you, my only condition is that you be willing to enter with an open mind. I find it fascinating that people can call us evil without knowing us. I truly hope you'll take me up on my offer, my IRC nickname is FiremanDave[NPO]

[kamino]

Well, thank you. I would invite you to join us on ColdFront in #nsa and take the time to have a conversation with us. I would certainly enjoy an intelligent conversation with you, my only condition is that you be willing to enter with an open mind. I find it fascinating that people can call us evil without knowing us. I truly hope you'll take me up on my offer, my IRC nickname is FiremanDave[NPO]

[ooc]I would love that, it sounds like a lot of fun. unfortunatly I am currently on a government computer an am unable at this time to enter any chat rooms till I get home wich will be after this 12 hour shift and then some rest, but I think I will take you up on that offer later tonight[/ooc]

[D0m1n1c]

My apologies for the confusion with the moldavi doctrine, my bad, got them mixed up.

Right, so you know full well you got your facts mixed up. You know full well that most of the stuff you just said is utter garbage and of your own interpretation and contains less facts than even the most worthless pile of garbage ever.

To sum up your post, you're basically saying:

1. Karma is useless at war

2. We, the 'evil forces of hegemony' are just so because we tend to do the natural thing of rebuilding

3. We have a new moldavi doctrine (which isn't ours anyway)

4. Red Dawn, an economic and cooperative agreement, is a step to conquest

5. We will seek revenge (DOH!)

6. Francoism is something which each Emperor changes as he comes along. Honestly, do you even know what Francoism is???

7. Francoism creates a system where conquest is permanent (aka a way of life)

Did I miss anything? Oh, yes, I missed out the facts. But that's not my fault, because there really aren't any, are there?

[KagetheSecond]

I've never been a fan of the NPO, but I think that you're being a little ridiculous here. Yes, the NPO is recovering swiftly even under the biggest terms in the history of Bob. It's evidence that the NPO really has mastered this (OOC)game(/OOC). They're good at what they do, both in nation building and their foreign policy. Blaming them for all that is wrong in Bob is not fair to them. There have been plenty of other alliances that have allowed or assisted the NPO to exist the way they did. Without the supporting alliances, the NPO would not have been the same. Besides, I'd be glad if the NPO rearmed and went looking for blood. This place is getting boring again and we need to see some action.

[kamino]

Do I need to lend you a tinfoil hat? I used to be a Voxian myself, I despised the New Pacific Order and fought against them with all I had. Then I actually spoke to them for the first time, during the Karma War, and came to realise that they really weren't heartless monsters.

Then you were turned to the darkside.

Oh, shock! Oh, horror! We're actually growing again, because *nobody* ever expected that!! Perhaps Karma actually considered that eventuality? Perhaps they gave us terms anyway, because of the mounting international pressures?

Oh yes that was totally expected, thats why the NPO should have been destroyed.

Have you even read Vladimir's works on Francoism?

Yes ma'am, I have.

"The Pacificans are coming!!!!!!! THE END IS NEAR!!!!!!"

Agreed.

[Francesca]

Then you were turned to the darkside.

I really hope you're not being serious.......

* Francesca facepalms.

Oh yes that was totally expected, thats why the NPO should have been destroyed.

Nevermind that was exactly the sort of behaviour that NPO was opposed for.

Yes ma'am, I have.

Then please, illustrate some of its flaws and inconsistencies.

Agreed.

Once more, I hope this is satirical....

My apologies for biting your head off. I get tired of all the hatred sometimes, and I overreact. But I do think you are completely wrong on almost every single point.

[FiremandDave]

Oh yes that was totally expected, thats why the NPO should have been destroyed.

Might I ask why you believe that we should be completely destroyed? Are we that scary? Are we nothing but evil creatures, destined to turn the game into our private playground?

I'm genuinely asking. If we weren't the strongest alliance in the game, and another was "evil", would you be baying for their blood as well?

[kamino]

Might I ask why you believe that we should be completely destroyed? Are we that scary? Are we nothing but evil creatures, destined to turn the game into our private playground?

I'm genuinely asking. If we weren't the strongest alliance in the game, and another was "evil", would you be baying for their blood as well?

No sir, my problem with the NPO is not the NPO herself, rather Francoism, an ideoligy that blatantly states it is against freedom of speech (On free speech by Z'ha'dum) and its twisting of the laws of nature to provide only security for loyalty as opposed to equality. Francoism is a system of oppression.

[Francesca]

No sir, my problem with the NPO is not the NPO herself, rather Francoism, an ideoligy that blatantly states it is against freedom of speech (On free speech by Z'ha'dum) and its twisting of the laws of nature to provide only security for loyalty as opposed to equality. Francoism is a system of oppression.

Francoism is a system that allows alliances to operate with maximum efficiently (at least, that is the professional opinion of Order officials, and given that they have been ruling Planet Bob for the last few years I think we can accept that what they have to say is pretty accurate.) It twists no laws of nature, rather it recognises reality and operates around it. It is only a system of oppression insomuch as that it is central to the continued existence of the Order, but then we delve into questions like "is the Order oppressive?" which I have already gathered your opinions on. Oh, and:

<+Francesca[NPO]> Someone respond to that guy's latest post

<+Francesca[NPO]> I can't even be bothered

<+Francesca[NPO]> http://images5.cafepress.com/product/37264...Color-White.jpg <-- If you can incorporate that picture somehow..

[Vladimir]

Comrade Zhadum argued for free speech, as he made clear in the conclusion of his work:

"We live in free speech, nothing the Order can do will stop that. The only way to stop free speech is to accept the push its "advocates" propound towards international government. When their vision of a world where they are allowed to say anything they want without fear of anything being said back to them is realized, that is how you will know free speech is dead. Until such a time, call the impostors, the fakers, and the phonies what they are, pretenders attempting to warp the meaning of freedom to their perverse and twisted ends of silencing all opposition to them. So long as we remember the price of free speech is others speaking freely, it will live on in this world. It is with that closing thought I ask you to stand by free speech and oppose those who would use the idea of free expression as a warped tool by which to silence their enemies."

Moreover, you seem to be complaining that Francoism doesn't endorse the Order extending its statehood over the entire globe in order to act as a world police. I'm not sure I understand how this is a criticism of Francoism's tyrannical nature. Indeed, if we did do such a thing I expect you would be here (rightfully) complaining about our violation of your sovereignty. Damned if we do, damned if we don't?

Beyond this your only concrete complaint seems to be that we are cooperating with other red alliances through Red Dawn. If this is the path to conquest as you claim, why are you not decrying every other major alliance in the world, since they are almost without exception a part of a colour unity bloc themselves (though I always knew that ODN lot were up to something).

[Zeta Defender]

Oh yes that was totally expected, thats why the NPO should have been destroyed.

[ooc]Who are you the reroll of and why should I even listen to you.[/ooc]

In other news, they tried, we survived, get over it.

[kamino]

Comrade Zhadum argued for free speech, as he made clear in the conclusion of his work:

"We live in free speech, nothing the Order can do will stop that. The only way to stop free speech is to accept the push its "advocates" propound towards international government. When their vision of a world where they are allowed to say anything they want without fear of anything being said back to them is realized, that is how you will know free speech is dead. Until such a time, call the impostors, the fakers, and the phonies what they are, pretenders attempting to warp the meaning of freedom to their perverse and twisted ends of silencing all opposition to them. So long as we remember the price of free speech is others speaking freely, it will live on in this world. It is with that closing thought I ask you to stand by free speech and oppose those who would use the idea of free expression as a warped tool by which to silence their enemies."

Moreover, you seem to be complaining that Francoism doesn't endorse the Order extending its statehood over the entire globe in order to act as a world police. I'm not sure I understand how this is a criticism of Francoism's tyrannical nature. Indeed, if we did do such a thing I expect you would be here (rightfully) complaining about our violation of your sovereignty. Damned if we do, damned if we don't?

Beyond this your only concrete complaint seems to be that we are cooperating with other red alliances through Red Dawn. If this is the path to conquest as you claim, why are you not decrying every other major alliance in the world, since they are almost without exception a part of a colour unity bloc themselves (though I always knew that ODN lot were up to something).

Zhadum's work was nothing more than a justification of the use of force in speech, claiming that the use of force is a form of speech which I strongly disagree with.

Secondly, the uniting of economic power on one sphere is a way to have some form of control over the red shpere.

and lastly, as far as the other alliances go, they are just as bad, the reason I bring the NPO to light is because the NPO is the vessel of Francoism.

[OOC Vladimir I just want to say what an absaloute delight it is to speak with some one of your stature, your ideals are a great credit to this game, thanks for helping to make it so much fun.[/ooc]

[alpreb]

The NPO will return to exact its revenge, and may Admin have mercy on us all.

This is actually a best case scenario.

Getting another faction into the mix can only promise for more drama and wars.

Do to the incompetence and impotence of the forces of karma to finish the job against the NPO and the Hegemony

That is pretty much an impossible request. The existence of Fark and FAN confirms the inability to truly kills of an alliance that doesn't want to die. If it was indeed possible to finish alliances, many of the sides fighting for Karma would not have existed today to actually wage the war, so your wish to remove NPO from Planet Bob must go hand in hand with the removal of MK, Fark, FAN, NpO (We might have opted for it, was it even remotely possible), The Legion, GATO, GPA, Nordreich just to name a few.

I really do not wish for a world where the total destruction of an alliance is doable.

Edited September 5, 2009 by alpreb

[President Kuse]

We should have pushed for No internal aid for a certain duration in the terms that would've at least hindered their efforts short term. Basically we were too soft with them. If I would of had it my way I would have continued the war, Attrition would have killed them off more than anything else.

[Vladimir]

I would start off by saying that the level of fear surrounding us from all quarters seems self-defeating. Was a major part of Karma propaganda not entrance to the glorious post-NPO world? A world where of multi-polar conflict flowed through the marble halls and fairness prevailed? As things stand it seems that there really is no life after the NPO; when we aren't at the party everyone just stands around in silence sipping the 2% beer out of the provided plastic cups, waiting awkwardly for us to get back. It's flattering, I admit, but nevertheless I cannot understand the urge to live through someone else, rather than living the dream yourself.

Zhadum's work was nothing more than a justification of the use of force in speech, claiming that the use of force is a form of speech which I strongly disagree with.

The central point being made is that free speech does not exist in a vacuum -- it has consequences. That is to say, if you call me a name I might like you less, might be less inclined to do you favours, might lessen diplomatic ties with your alliance; because speech conveys information that is important and has to be factored into our future actions. This may seem obvious, and indeed, seems to have worked its way into the 'common sense' of Planet Bob nowadays, but back when On Free Speech was written the popular idea was that someone should be able to say whatever they want with no consequences whatsoever -- because to suggest that you calling me names might damage our relationship would be an attack on your free speech.

We can see this context in Comrade Zhadum's article:

"It is not free speech they wish for, it is the ability to speak freely with absolutely no consequences for what they say. They wish to be able to troll, bluster, threaten, and attack while not allowing anyone else to do the same in return to them. Those who most loudly swear by free expression are those who invariably do the most to limit it."

Of course, he then went on to discuss the real attack on free speech, which was the long-standing desire (advanced seriously first in early 2006 and last in 2008 by Vox and their 'Bill of Rights' (ironically designed to be enforced by none other than the NPO)) to create a world government with laws and enforcement mechanisms -- an idea similarly combated by myself in 2007.

It is important to note at this point that the Order never actually attacked anyone for anything that they said -- though the contrary was often perceived since harsh words usually accompany harsh actions. So, what is Comrade Zhadum actually saying when he defends one's right to attack another over whatever reason they see fit? He is saying that in order for the world to remain free we must defend the independence of the international sphere -- the ability for nations and alliances to go to war for whatever reason they desire without a global police force trying to arrest them. This isn't to then say that they should be able to do so without consequences since the same rules of discourse apply -- other nations and alliances should be able to respond to the attack, and so forth ad infinitum. It isn't always pretty, it doesn't always lead to actions you agree with, but that's freedom for you.

So what you are complaining about here in not an attack on free speech, but an attack on tyranny and a defence of sovereignty and international anarchy.

Secondly, the uniting of economic power on one sphere is a way to have some form of control over the red shpere.

and lastly, as far as the other alliances go, they are just as bad, the reason I bring the NPO to light is because the NPO is the vessel of Francoism.

Perhaps it is the other alliances that are controlling us? It was the other alliances that created the (purely intergovernmental aka. non-controlling) organisation and asked us to join, after all. Perhaps we have telepathic control of other alliances as well? Would explain how we can be blamed for many of the things we are...

Or perhaps there are very good individual reasons for entering such a bloc to remove conflict over things like the senate and trade; this would certainly explain why every other alliance did it as well. Seems there is some bias in assuming that we must be the evil ones, or indeed, that there must be evil at all.