Warning

[PrideAssassin]

playing off the laws of nature and other ignorance.

I stopped listening almost from the start, but I started rofling right about here.

Here, you equate the laws of nature to ignorance. Physicists the world over would not take kindly to being called ignorant.

I would publicly torture both your advisor and your tutor for allowing such a poorly thought out "grand" speech to be penned (let alone distributed) in the first place.

Better luck next time?

[kamino]

I would start off by saying that the level of fear surrounding us from all quarters seems self-defeating. Was a major part of Karma propaganda not entrance to the glorious post-NPO world? A world where of multi-polar conflict flowed through the marble halls and fairness prevailed? As things stand it seems that there really is no life after the NPO; when we aren't at the party everyone just stands around in silence sipping the 2% beer out of the provided plastic cups, waiting awkwardly for us to get back. It's flattering, I admit, but nevertheless I cannot understand the urge to live through someone else, rather than living the dream yourself.

I agree, it is the NPO and Francoist thought that have made our endeavors more enriching in that having a major enemy to destroy would mark the end of life on planet bob, may that day never come, but it certainly is fun trying.

The central point being made is that free speech does not exist in a vacuum -- it has consequences. That is to say, if you call me a name I might like you less, might be less inclined to do you favours, might lessen diplomatic ties with your alliance; because speech conveys information that is important and has to be factored into our future actions. This may seem obvious, and indeed, seems to have worked its way into the 'common sense' of Planet Bob nowadays, but back when On Free Speech was written the popular idea was that someone should be able to say whatever they want with no consequences whatsoever -- because to suggest that you calling me names might damage our relationship would be an attack on your free speech.

We can see this context in Comrade Zhadum's article:

"It is not free speech they wish for, it is the ability to speak freely with absolutely no consequences for what they say. They wish to be able to troll, bluster, threaten, and attack while not allowing anyone else to do the same in return to them. Those who most loudly swear by free expression are those who invariably do the most to limit it."

I agree that free speech does not exist in a vacuum and there are consequences and rightfully so. There is an old saying, first convince yourself, then a friend then an enemy and if it stands, it is truth. Zhadum's work however provides for the justification to eliminate the truth, i.e. we have a theological discussion, I win, so you attack and wipe me out, so because I am ZI'd I now have fear of disagreance (if that is a word) which would be the oppression of freedom of speech. An agree or die policy.

Of course, he then went on to discuss the real attack on free speech, which was the long-standing desire (advanced seriously first in early 2006 and last in 2008 by Vox and their 'Bill of Rights' (ironically designed to be enforced by none other than the NPO)) to create a world government with laws and enforcement mechanisms -- an idea similarly combated by myself in 2007.

It is important to note at this point that the Order never actually attacked anyone for anything that they said -- though the contrary was often perceived since harsh words usually accompany harsh actions. So, what is Comrade Zhadum actually saying when he defends one's right to attack another over whatever reason they see fit? He is saying that in order for the world to remain free we must defend the independence of the international sphere -- the ability for nations and alliances to go to war for whatever reason they desire without a global police force trying to arrest them. This isn't to then say that they should be able to do so without consequences since the same rules of discourse apply -- other nations and alliances should be able to respond to the attack, and so forth ad infinitum. It isn't always pretty, it doesn't always lead to actions you agree with, but that's freedom for you.

So what you are complaining about here in not an attack on free speech, but an attack on tyranny and a defence of sovereignty and international anarchy.

Well I guess you just shut me up on this portion, I have no rebuttal sir, I agree, even if I do not like it. (/Kamino cries his little eyes out) So then I guess then I would not so much disagree with Zhadum but rather I find some flaws in his statement that can be misconstrued and may be abused.

May I say sir that you have eloquence in your statements and I am very privileged to have had this opportunity to converse with you?

[kamino]

I stopped listening almost from the start, but I started rofling right about here.

Here, you equate the laws of nature to ignorance. Physicists the world over would not take kindly to being called ignorant.

I would publicly torture both your advisor and your tutor for allowing such a poorly thought out "grand" speech to be penned (let alone distributed) in the first place.

Better luck next time?

I apologize sir, I should have been a little more clear; I meant the ignorance of the younger players.

[Francesca]

snip

So after this little back-and-forth, you now love NPO with all your heart, right? I have just the thing for you, my friend!

(for those of you who are too lazy to click the [OOC] link [/OOC] it is a guide to filling out a membership application at the New Pacific Order.)

Edited September 5, 2009 by Francesca

[kamino]

So after this little back-and-forth, you now love NPO with all your heart, right? I have just the thing for you, my friend!

LOL, no my dear, I have no intention of joining the NPO, nor do I love the NPO, the direction of your emperor is not the course I would seek and I prefere my Full Democracy instead where I have a vote and an oppinion and there by directly contribute to the course of my alliance, I find it better suits my nation to have these things than if some one were to tell me when to go to war for a cause I do not support. In my full democracy even if I loose I still had a voice and a vote and I will remain loyal and supportive to democratic principles. While I may have a different view on the article that was written by Zhadum than I did before, I still hold my view that 'ignorant' (for lack of a better word) nations are being sold on defense and money alone. I think my signature explains exactly where I stand on the issue. By selling my liberty for security I would loose both in that I am not free or safe when an emperor sends me to war to die.

[Francesca]

LOL, no my dear, I have no intention of joining the NPO, nor do I love the NPO, the direction of your emperor is not the course I would seek and I prefere my Full Democracy instead where I have a vote and an oppinion and there by directly contribute to the course of my alliance, I find it better suits my nation to have these things than if some one were to tell me when to go to war for a cause I do not support. In my full democracy even if I loose I still had a voice and a vote and I will remain loyal and supportive to democratic principles. While I may have a different view on the article that was written by Zhadum than I did before, I still hold my view that 'ignorant' (for lack of a better word) nations are being sold on defense and money alone. I think my signature explains exactly where I stand on the issue. By selling my liberty for security I would loose both in that I am not free or safe when an emperor sends me to war to die.

We are sent nowhere to die, we fight for our comrades of our own choice. Additionall, every single member of Pacifica has an influence on our direction and an opinion on various issues. Nevertheless, your decision not to apply saddens me greatly.

[deathman1212]

They tried,

They Won.

We survived,

You were let off lightly.

get over it.

Already have, good luck on rolling the people who were in Karma in a few years.

[kamino]

We are sent nowhere to die, we fight for our comrades of our own choice. Additionall, every single member of Pacifica has an influence on our direction and an opinion on various issues. Nevertheless, your decision not to apply saddens me greatly.

How is it that every member has a choice to fight? and how do they have an influance, the NPO is not a direct democracy that I am aware of.

[Vladimir]

Bur friend, voting is such a primitive and superficial means of democracy and liberty. What the Order pursues is so much more real.

[Francesca]

How is it that every member has a choice to fight? and how do they have an influance, the NPO is not a direct democracy that I am aware of.

I don't believe it requires a democracy for every member to have an influence on the direction of an alliance, but if it's democracy you're looking for, our Council is elected regularly (in facts, our elections were just held, in which every member of the Body Republic who so desired placed their votes for their desired candidates.

If every member didn't want to fight when the Order went to war, they wouldn't join the Order.

[kamino]

Bur friend, voting is such a primitive and superficial means of democracy and liberty. What the Order pursues is so much more real.

and what pursuit is that sir?

[kamino]

I don't believe it requires a democracy for every member to have an influence on the direction of an alliance, but if it's democracy you're looking for, our Council is elected regularly (in facts, our elections were just held, in which every member of the Body Republic who so desired placed their votes for their desired candidates.

If every member didn't want to fight when the Order went to war, they wouldn't join the Order.

so what do you believe allows every member to have an influance on the direction?

[Brenann]

Kamino, I have to ask you this. You love your way of life with your "Democracy" and your beliefs in your way of Alliance life. How is that any different then our love of our way of life? Why should OUR way of life be attacked and wiped out from the face of Bob?

Personally I think "lolDemocracy" is overrated and useless on Bob. Does that mean, since I dont like it I should go and write ignorant speeches demanding lolDemocracy be destroyed?

Also you say that you don't blame the NPO, yet you hate Francoism... you do realize there is no way to separate the two? Without one there will not be the other.

I would also like to know, why do you personally have such a fear/hatred of us?

[Haflinger]

I don't believe it requires a democracy for every member to have an influence on the direction of an alliance, but if it's democracy you're looking for, our Council is elected regularly (in facts, our elections were just held, in which every member of the Body Republic who so desired placed their votes for their desired candidates.

Indeed.

I've occasionally made jokes with Dilber and Triyun about how the Council is a sign of the NPO becoming overrun by democracy.

In all alliances, the ordinary members have a strong influence on how the alliance conducts itself. Without them, alliance leadership doesn't have any power, and so it must take their concerns into account or find itself ruling over nobody but itself.

This is even true in Invicta, possibly the most centrally-controlled dictatorship on Bob.

[Francesca]

so what do you believe allows every member to have an influance on the direction?

We pool our sovereignty under an Emperor in what may be deemed an autocratic fashion, but so too do we live a fundamentally democratic way of life, with the Emperor acting as a funnel through which the will of Pacifica flows as a single, powerful voice.

[kamino]

Kamino, I have to ask you this. You love your way of life with your "Democracy" and your beliefs in your way of Alliance life. How is that any different then our love of our way of life? Why should OUR way of life be attacked and wiped out from the face of Bob?

Personally I think "lolDemocracy" is overrated and useless on Bob. Does that mean, since I dont like it I should go and write ignorant speeches demanding lolDemocracy be destroyed?

Also you say that you don't blame the NPO, yet you hate Francoism... you do realize there is no way to separate the two? Without one there will not be the other.

I would also like to know, why do you personally have such a fear/hatred of us?

It is my belief that many of your newer members are either unaware of democracy on planet bob or are discouraged from joining such through peer pressure the same way you put quotations on LOLDEMOCRACY and smearing it. I personally believe that you do not need to post anything about direct democracy because when we get even larger more members will take notice and leave dictatorships for democracy which in the end will be viewed as a threat to dictators power and they will attempt to wipe us out, but if any one feels compelled to write about democracies I would love to read it and discuss it.

I do realize that the NPO and Francoism are one in the same, maybe I should not have differentiated previously.

[[OOC I have to answer this last one OOC. There are two reasons I hate the NPO, one was the Modalvi doctrine, showing the oppression of a dictatorship, and secondly because destroying the NPO would in fact mark the end of the game, what point is there playing if the NPO is gone, like I said before, I hope it never happens, but it sure is fun trying.[[/OOC]]

[[OOC]] I have to answer your other questions OOC,

[Francesca]

It is my belief that many of your newer members are either unaware of democracy on planet bob or are discouraged from joining such through peer pressure the same way you put quotations on LOLDEMOCRACY and smearing it. I personally believe that you do not need to post anything about direct democracy because when we get even larger more members will take notice and leave dictatorships for democracy which in the end will be viewed as a threat to dictators power and they will attempt to wipe us out, but if any one feels compelled to write about democracies I would love to read it and discuss it.

I do realize that the NPO and Francoism are one in the same, maybe I should not have differentiated previously.

[[OOC I have to answer this last one OOC. There are two reasons I hate the NPO, one was the Modalvi doctrine, showing the oppression of a dictatorship, and secondly because destroying the NPO would in fact mark the end of the game, what point is there playing if the NPO is gone, like I said before, I hope it never happens, but it sure is fun trying.[[/OOC]]

[[OOC]] I have to answer your other questions OOC,

Democracy is an ineffective form of government on Planet Bob, because you are essentially giving the same amount of power to ignorant noobs that you are to older and experienced members who actually know what they are doing. But this veers dangerously close to being off-topic.

[kamino]

We pool our sovereignty under an Emperor in what may be deemed an autocratic fashion, but so too do we live a fundamentally democratic way of life, with the Emperor acting as a funnel through which the will of Pacifica flows as a single, powerful voice.

Ma'am, if I were to say that all nations on planet bob were shintoist would you agree? Of course not, so why is it that an emperor can make a statement for every last person and its ok? I see no difference.

[kamino]

Democracy is an ineffective form of government on Planet Bob, because you are essentially giving the same amount of power to ignorant noobs that you are to older and experienced members who actually know what they are doing. But this veers dangerously close to being off-topic.

you do make an excelent point dear, but what of the few who really know whats going on? Many in a democracy look up to those that know what there talking about and make no advance untill afterwards. why should those who know whats going on be forced to go through a meritocracy. They did after all join a game to be a ruler, not a citizen.

[Francesca]

Ma'am, if I were to say that all nations on planet bob were shintoist would you agree? Of course not, so why is it that an emperor can make a statement for every last person and its ok? I see no difference.

Through our unification under our Emperor, we have eliminated the chaos and conflict that we find both in nature and in other alliances, and this has allowed us to develop as a truly united, meritocratic alliance, where the best rise and everyone is free to pusue their desire.

Francoism and the Order have thus been defined by their ability to overcome the chaos that has kept others in disarray. Francoism has given us the analysis that is required in order to steer ourselves through the treacherous tides, and our Francoist history has given us the ship capable of crashing through the waves to emancipation.

[Francesca]

you do make an excelent point dear, but what of the few who really know whats going on? Many in a democracy look up to those that know what there talking about and make no advance untill afterwards. why should those who know whats going on be forced to go through a meritocracy. They did after all join a game to be a ruler, not a citizen.

One must first act as a citizen, before acting as a ruler. Once people have proven themselves as citizens and worked their way up a meritocracy, they may become a leader.

[OOC] Essentially, democracy is a form of government that operates on the principles that all people are equal. The thing is, in Cyber Nations, people are not equal. Therefore, democracy simply does not work, in this game. [OOC]

[kamino]

Through our unification under our Emperor, we have eliminated the chaos and conflict that we find both in nature and in other alliances, and this has allowed us to develop as a truly united, meritocratic alliance, where the best rise and everyone is free to pusue their desire.

Francoism and the Order have thus been defined by their ability to overcome the chaos that has kept others in disarray. Francoism has given us the analysis that is required in order to steer ourselves through the treacherous tides, and our Francoist history has given us the ship capable of crashing through the waves to emancipation.

So the way I read that, is through your submission you do as he says and you follow on blind faith regardless of the costs.

I just have a little bit of a problem with submission personally.

[Francesca]

So the way I read that, is through your submission you do as he says and you follow on blind faith regardless of the costs.

I just have a little bit of a problem with submission personally.

Rather, because of our Francoist philosophy, Pacifica is unified in its desires.

[Brenann]

It is my belief that many of your newer members are either unaware of democracy on planet bob or are discouraged from joining such through peer pressure the same way you put quotations on LOLDEMOCRACY and smearing it. I personally believe that you do not need to post anything about direct democracy because when we get even larger more members will take notice and leave dictatorships for democracy which in the end will be viewed as a threat to dictators power and they will attempt to wipe us out, but if any one feels compelled to write about democracies I would love to read it and discuss it.

Our newer members dont know about Democracy??? How many Sanctioned Alliances are Democracies? All but 2 maybe 3... (WTF confuses me ). So how is it that TWO out of 12 alliances is a threat to democracy? We don't lure in members with a false pretense on anything, if people are coming to the NPO they have plenty of fore knowledge about who and what we are. Our application process alone takes 2- 5 days, unless you are special, and then there is an Academy that we explain Francoism, and that we teach members our way of life. If they choose not to stay that is their choice. So there is nothing stopping them from leaving if they don't like it.

I would like to know how we peer pressure members into NOT choosing a Democratic Alliance... we are out numbered 5 to 1 in the Sanctioned Alliances alone.

EDIT: Bad maths.. thanks Haf

Edited September 5, 2009 by Brenann

[BamaBuc]

It is my belief that many of your newer members are either unaware of democracy on planet bob or are discouraged from joining such through peer pressure the same way you put quotations on LOLDEMOCRACY and smearing it. I personally believe that you do not need to post anything about direct democracy because when we get even larger more members will take notice and leave dictatorships for democracy which in the end will be viewed as a threat to dictators power and they will attempt to wipe us out, but if any one feels compelled to write about democracies I would love to read it and discuss it.

I do realize that the NPO and Francoism are one in the same, maybe I should not have differentiated previously.

[[OOC I have to answer this last one OOC. There are two reasons I hate the NPO, one was the Modalvi doctrine, showing the oppression of a dictatorship, and secondly because destroying the NPO would in fact mark the end of the game, what point is there playing if the NPO is gone, like I said before, I hope it never happens, but it sure is fun trying.[[/OOC]]

[[OOC]] I have to answer your other questions OOC,

DOC is not the only democratic alliance. There are countless big democratic alliances on Planet Bob. Always have been. And yet there are still countless big autocratic alliances as well.

-Bama