NPO History Discussion

[Branimir]

Let's just say that if the duel membership rights that were traditional afforded former Emperors was to be officially changed it would have been nice to get the memo beforehand.

That you can say. It would be good manners indeed.

But, dual membership, or triple membership in your case, would be quite awkward in the light of my previous post.

A great figure of our past you are, but currently a leader of a foreign force to us. Cant give access to you of our boards considering that. I hope you can understand the rational of that.

Every alliance has skeletons, if I wanted to be such as you suggest I would fill graveyards.

Yes, you could do much, much more damage. Though that doesn't really nullify and is in essence irrelevant, to how I perceived your post coming out. You did use your knowledge about private affairs of your previous home (which no, Ivan, really is not common spoken knowledge-- if true) to attack, destroy one NPOers post.

Kind of a bad form for me, as the one of not giving you notice about your status on our board although a worse then that as no private info was dispensed with that.

The truth is, as any whom have seen my private comments in various places can attest, I hold the Body Republic community of the NPO in the highest regard and would never make such comments in an effort to harm them. I apologize if you believe otherwise, but I don't see spying three years ago as clear intent to harm.

I am sorry but it is and shall be used like that against us. I thought you would know that.

Of course, as you alluded to, I can't say the same for some of the leadership, and that feeling is mutual.

Heh, well yes, that much is clear.

edit:

EDIT: You mention no ties between NSO and Frostbite with NPO. It could have occurred to someone at some time that alienating the best, closest and most obvious tie that might have existed isn't the best course of action if relations were actually wish for.

Ivan, NPO and Frosbite line up are not compatible or ever will be for certain people in that line up and because of general membership feelings.

The boat you have chosen has inherently alienated you from us permanently, although of course a case can be made there wasnt a real strong effort from NPO to avoid that.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Branimir

[HellAngel]

Ahhh yes, utter rubbish.

I didn't mentioned, or even reasonably implied any kind of Gre brain wash against NPO.

I did said that TOP came to their picking of side on their own accords, in just above post then yours.

I don't know how from my posts one rational intelligent reasonable human being can conclude how NPO views allies as tools.

This putting of word in my mouth is really quite ridiculous. All you have really, I rarely see a quality post from you.

After putting words in my mouth, then "baaaaawwwww evil NPO evil bawwwww".

You know, after saying how you didn't brainwash anybody, meaning sell them your propaganda, you did took a turn for a propaganda mindless post quickly.

Yeah, poor TOP being stuck with us which we so heavily abused. Let us forget all the help NPO members gave TOP to even form as an alliance, what benefits that alliance received to grow with the treaty with us. Yes, it totally backfired to them, they are now a shamble alliance.

As I said already, distance formed between us. Yes it was due to the state of our relations and yes that means the result of various actions. It didn't worked out in the end between us. I can not agree with your characterization that it was due to us taking TOP as a tool, but hey I don't really care what you think.

All that currently really matters is that it is over and shall remain as such. I shall not discuss TOP any further, they are not in the crux of my interests or even anywhere in there as I have these reps to pay and surrender terms to survive. They will most probably stay out of my interest after those as well. And my advice to TOP would be to stop wasting time on NPO debates and push that collect button more fiercely as there be some ill willed people towards them. NPO is completely irrelevant for their interest now. Actually I would dispense that advise to Gre as well. That is all, Rat, from my part. I cant get bothered further about this.

You know, im not going into the TOP thing again, thats been beaten to death, but it very clearly shows the crux of the problem NPO had.

You had too many damn treaties that didnt mean a thing. That might not be true for the TOP one, but for many others.

If you want to have real friends my advice is you start listening to them. The only thing i can remember from my time in Q is that whenever someone disagreed with NPOs point of view, they brought in their goons from Valhalla, TPF and IRON to troll the thread into the ground. There was no real exchange of opinions.

Of course this view is pretty biased since i never got to see any other side than the gremlins point of view, but im pretty sure if you had respected some allies a little bit more you wouldnt have had the problems you had.

Or, god forbid, start listening to old grämmyboys and dont create archenemies out of wars that will haunt you forever because you asked for three times their tech as reparations and the viceroy is letting them wear pink partyhats and oversized wooden shoes.

[Branimir]

You had too many damn treaties that didnt mean a thing.

Hey man I am agreeing with you, though not for exact reasons you presented but yes, we tied ourselves with people inherently not compatible to us or even friendly. That was silly we shouldn't have done that.

I am not expecting the same mistake again.

[HellAngel]

Well, then history will repeat itself. Apparently, the NPO is resistant to what people call "learning". There are just not enough alliances left of your kind to make up a feasible force.

I mean, dont you see a pattern? First GOONS, then NpO, then you guys?

Let me give you a hint: the one who disrespected other alliances sovereignity the most died first.

[Branimir]

Let me give you a hint: the one who disrespected other alliances sovereignity the most died first.

Hey man, disrespecting other alliances sovereignty is all the rage now-- just look at OV, they disrespected our sovereignty and they are doing great.

You and I will never see eye to eye, that goes for our alliances. Its obvious you think we are some kind of a evil incarnate, I don't care, nor do I care for your alliance. There is no point in going further we will have to agree to disagree.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Branimir

[Haflinger]

If NPO didn't spy itself, this would be a lot more convincing. Almost all alliances do things that are technically worthy of a CB by some standards. You were just too powerful to be attacked. Get off your morality horse and admit you were planning to crush SF before TOP and MHA drifted too far off; it's plainly obvious that was the case.

Then why didn't they attack SF when the logs came out revealing that Hoo was plotting a SF+Citadel attack on NPO?

They had the whole treatyweb in place then. Arguably they should have attacked Ragnarok then, with a clear CB and a pile of allies to help them. Instead they prevented this attack.

Look, you can make arguments that they were plotting against C&G or Citadel or any number of other people. But NPO planning an attack on SF just doesn't make sense given they prevented SF's destruction.

[Khyber]

Contrary to all this NPO is evil stuff people keep on sprouting the NPO did not do anything worse then any alliance at the time, the only exception was Viet FAN in my books, and only the second war, not the first.

Their failings were politically this past war. I blame it on paranoia more then anything else. In the past they would often close ranks, pull their allies together, tell them it was going to be a tough fight, and have a battle plan of who attacks who. But I think they felt this war hard to take place immidiately when all imperical evidence showed that them and IRON were out growing everyone else, and that TOP and NpO were behind them. TOP's problem with Q was that Q had become dead due to fear of spying, and that they didn't agree with some in Q or didn't know others. Some in TOP even wanted to form another bloc involveing IRON-NPO and TOP as well as the new bloc which would merge Citadel into it. To us, war was not something that was needed, we were winning the peace and it was in our best intrest to keep the peace.

I think what the NPO should have done is let the world split. Accept a challenger to their hegamony, and allow time for that challenger to make mistakes. It was easy to rally people against the "ebil NPO", but if others proved to be as destuctive suddenly whatever coalition that existed would start to see cracks. The Hegamony as it stood would no longer be a hegamony but rather the strongest bloc in a many sided world. Valhalla held purple together along with the NPO. TPF held white together minus STA and their friends on white. The bloc which consisted on 1V and the remainder of Q just had to play it smart, keep their heads low, accept the change in times and wait till two blocs had a misunderstanding and put their weight behind them. Instead you had leadership from TPF, TORN and NPO acting like they still ruled the world and went headlong into a situation knowing the risks were high and hopeing that some allies would support them due to an MDP in an aggressive war when it was made clear to them otherwise.

Honestly I was taken aback by their decision. Mind you the lead up to that war had me shaking my head on many of thier decisions.

[avernite]

Are you really trying to claim that TOP would be where it is today without the NPO? TOP was an insignificant alliance before WUT. What would you have done? Sided with the League, or stayed neutral? Okay, you made a good show against GATO during GWII, but face it, that didn't mean much. You didn't bring any allies to the table. So you were a decent sized alliance during the UjW, but you did nothing there. Frankly you didn't become that relevant until after that war, when you grew a good lot due to the ex-GOONS joining up with you. But yeah, I mean, come on, you wouldn't have made it through those early stages without NPO. Well, maybe, but you wouldn't have been in the position to be where you are today. NPO made you.

As for Crymson, so what? We all hated him anyway. There was celebration after he left you know? Especially amongst the government of the time.

I'll say that I agree in some sense, and disagree in other senses. (see a summary at the end)

Also, I would ignore essenia. He missed much of the period (IIRC, at least) where the relationship was most mutually beneficial, namely from the signing of our treaty to the end of GW3.

By the time of TOP's treaty with NPO, we were probably a second tier alliance for that time (far below sanctioned + near-sanctioned, which would be tier 1) which is probably the reason why, upon being suggested a treaty, NPO's immediate response was to sign TOP's proposal (before any further discussion or anything between the alliances). After all, there were not many opportunities for NPO in the first tier at that time. VE and FAN would probably fall into the second tier also, with GGA being a new ally from among the first tier (and quite notable precisely because of that).

So, then, the second great war; the NPO treaty made us a winner, a lack of participation would have put us in a similar position as IRON, but weaker. I continue to believe proving our merit on the battlefield was very useful to the alliance, as it allowed us the fame to attract talented individuals, a necessity as we did not recruit. Other notable fame-attracting events of this period would be our several run-ins with the GGA (ivanelterrible fighting I think Bilrow and KevinTheGreat, and before that a spat when Bilrow and KTG attacked Mely Ranen, then a TOP member and later our orange senator), but I doubt they would have attracted as much.

GW2-GW3 is a time when, specifically, NPO helped build up TOP. A sound investment, I would say, as it did a great deal to help us when Legion decided to try to squash TOP. Their failure, which was bought with NPO gold and blood as well as all TOP, FAN, and probably MHA could offer, was another important fame-attracting event. HOWEVER, the material damage was entirely avoidable for TOP, as relations with ODN especially had been fairly good before then, and with Legion on the positive side of neutral. VL Empire even spoke of his admiration for TOP when he tried to convince TOP to surrender (although, in light of the situation, it was beneficial for him to say such things).

So, at this point, I would say the vast part of NPO support was given, in a time when TOP gave back all it could. Which was less than NPO gave, of course, but the situation surely was mutually beneficial. And that's another factor, NPO and TOP were very useful allies, and started as foremost USEFUL. That allowed a lot of philosophical differences (which Chron probably alludes to with his knife in the back analogy) to be swept under the rug.

After the end of GW3, the situation gets murkier. The establishment of official relations with IRON may well have benefitted from Initiative membership, as it effectively preempted IRON from taking two orange senate seats (after all, they hardly could have held it against force) while also making relations with TOP more beneficial to them. This, indeed, is a plus as IRON was probably the greatest friend (rather than helper) for our first year. However, at this point the minus does start showing up. TOP was good friends with both VE and CIS, and both got attacked by Initiative members. NPO evidently takes only part of the blame, but it does take some. FAN was another alliance TOP had shared good relations with, at least from the signing of the WUT untill the end of GW3. TOP did help in that particular war, so it's not the greatest issue. VE was, which is funny because NpO was I think also one of the bigger opponents there, and we all know how that ended up.

Materially, this is still no harm to TOP, but it does get on the mental state and turns an almost purely mutually beneficial relationship into one that has ups and downs. It also shows that the Initiative was built from several differing philosophies, and a lot of those closely aligned to TOP philosophy got out.

The Unjust War is not particularly relevant for TOP-NPO relations, the only effect is really that the destruction wrought by it (and an influx of members; TOP's character means wars we do not lose are good for our membercount. We need experienced members, and disbandments and surrender cause massive drifts among experienced members) caused TOP to move from second tier into being decisively first tier. Which means a reduced reliance on NPO support, as TOP could now (with then-allies in the Citadel as well as FOK) present power of its own.

The next year is one of apparent degradation of relations. TOP and NpO got into arguments, conflict brewed, and NPO stood in the way. Of course, it also stood in the way of TOP being attacked by the NpO, but it was slowly but surely perceived that TOP had enough friends (or NpO too many people who wanted them taken down for whatever reason) to achieve victory. This perception occured BEFORE the cancellation of the OoO, and thus NPO appeared a roadblock to what eventually became the war of the Coalition. Still a good relationship, I believe, as NPO and TOP still shared much in the way of philosophy, but disagreements over methodology and over the differences in outlook that do exist did damage the relationship.

And after the war of the coalition, it is mostly down. TOP's best friend got on the opposite side of TOP's usually most useful ally. Grämlins were not going down directly, NPO would never be dumb (or nasty?) enough to do that to TOP, but over time it became clear that Grämlins protection started to extend beyond just them, and eventually it got into areas where NPO wanted to step freely. At which point TOP was pretty much sure to have to pick, and as the Karma war showed, NPO had gotten less useful as ally while Grämlins remained a friend as ever. The philosophies were still more closely aligned than with many other alliances (it is no wonder TOP's position remained in doubt to many people prior to the war), but without a dose of mutual benefit it certainly was less than others could offer.

So, the quick summary: yes, TOP gained from its relationship with the NPO, but the reverse is true also. Perhaps TOP gained more, but then again, TOP could gain more; NPO was already just one or two steps from hegemony, while TOP was just tier 2. TOP got fame, NPO got useful allies who just needed to be armed properly. At the start of this war, there was still an element of usefulness, but it certainly had been much reduced from TOP's point of view; still, it was a valued relationship, up to the point where there actually HAD to be a choice between Grämlins and NPO (one TOP desperately tried to avoid, perhaps foolishly). Then, the actions surrounding the negotiations lead to TOP choosing to forego NPO in favour of Grämlins (and several other allies, notable FOK and Umbrella who had been TOP friends since those alliances were small).

I disagree with it being called stabbing in the back; stabbing in the back would be organising Karma rather than (by some) being considered almost a millstone around Karma's neck (a characterisation I also disagree with) and trying to avoid the choice entirely by preventing the war.

I also think it's stupid to try to claim TOP gained nothing from its treaty with the NPO. Certainly, the Non-treaty treaty and its derivatives (Initiative, Continuum) were the best treaties for TOP's growth. But, there was tension from the start of the Intiative up to the Karma war, and eventually that made the bond weak to the point of shattering.

[WalkerNinja]

Well said, Avernite.

[Khyber]

I think that paints the least biased picture of relations. I know when we were in FAN we really thought that TOP was close to us. That said I was not goverment. I was let down when everyone jumped us , and was a bit happy that TOP did not attack. Never knew about the aiding till later on though.

[Essenia]

I'll say that I agree in some sense, and disagree in other senses. (see a summary at the end)

Also, I would ignore essenia. He missed much of the period (IIRC, at least) where the relationship was most mutually beneficial, namely from the signing of our treaty to the end of GW3.

By the time of TOP's treaty with NPO, we were probably a second tier alliance for that time (far below sanctioned + near-sanctioned, which would be tier 1) which is probably the reason why, upon being suggested a treaty, NPO's immediate response was to sign TOP's proposal (before any further discussion or anything between the alliances). After all, there were not many opportunities for NPO in the first tier at that time. VE and FAN would probably fall into the second tier also, with GGA being a new ally from among the first tier (and quite notable precisely because of that).

So, then, the second great war; the NPO treaty made us a winner, a lack of participation would have put us in a similar position as IRON, but weaker. I continue to believe proving our merit on the battlefield was very useful to the alliance, as it allowed us the fame to attract talented individuals, a necessity as we did not recruit. Other notable fame-attracting events of this period would be our several run-ins with the GGA (ivanelterrible fighting I think Bilrow and KevinTheGreat, and before that a spat when Bilrow and KTG attacked Mely Ranen, then a TOP member and later our orange senator), but I doubt they would have attracted as much.

GW2-GW3 is a time when, specifically, NPO helped build up TOP. A sound investment, I would say, as it did a great deal to help us when Legion decided to try to squash TOP. Their failure, which was bought with NPO gold and blood as well as all TOP, FAN, and probably MHA could offer, was another important fame-attracting event. HOWEVER, the material damage was entirely avoidable for TOP, as relations with ODN especially had been fairly good before then, and with Legion on the positive side of neutral. VL Empire even spoke of his admiration for TOP when he tried to convince TOP to surrender (although, in light of the situation, it was beneficial for him to say such things).

So, at this point, I would say the vast part of NPO support was given, in a time when TOP gave back all it could. Which was less than NPO gave, of course, but the situation surely was mutually beneficial. And that's another factor, NPO and TOP were very useful allies, and started as foremost USEFUL. That allowed a lot of philosophical differences (which Chron probably alludes to with his knife in the back analogy) to be swept under the rug.

After the end of GW3, the situation gets murkier. The establishment of official relations with IRON may well have benefitted from Initiative membership, as it effectively preempted IRON from taking two orange senate seats (after all, they hardly could have held it against force) while also making relations with TOP more beneficial to them. This, indeed, is a plus as IRON was probably the greatest friend (rather than helper) for our first year. However, at this point the minus does start showing up. TOP was good friends with both VE and CIS, and both got attacked by Initiative members. NPO evidently takes only part of the blame, but it does take some. FAN was another alliance TOP had shared good relations with, at least from the signing of the WUT untill the end of GW3. TOP did help in that particular war, so it's not the greatest issue. VE was, which is funny because NpO was I think also one of the bigger opponents there, and we all know how that ended up.

Materially, this is still no harm to TOP, but it does get on the mental state and turns an almost purely mutually beneficial relationship into one that has ups and downs. It also shows that the Initiative was built from several differing philosophies, and a lot of those closely aligned to TOP philosophy got out.

The Unjust War is not particularly relevant for TOP-NPO relations, the only effect is really that the destruction wrought by it (and an influx of members; TOP's character means wars we do not lose are good for our membercount. We need experienced members, and disbandments and surrender cause massive drifts among experienced members) caused TOP to move from second tier into being decisively first tier. Which means a reduced reliance on NPO support, as TOP could now (with then-allies in the Citadel as well as FOK) present power of its own.

The next year is one of apparent degradation of relations. TOP and NpO got into arguments, conflict brewed, and NPO stood in the way. Of course, it also stood in the way of TOP being attacked by the NpO, but it was slowly but surely perceived that TOP had enough friends (or NpO too many people who wanted them taken down for whatever reason) to achieve victory. This perception occured BEFORE the cancellation of the OoO, and thus NPO appeared a roadblock to what eventually became the war of the Coalition. Still a good relationship, I believe, as NPO and TOP still shared much in the way of philosophy, but disagreements over methodology and over the differences in outlook that do exist did damage the relationship.

And after the war of the coalition, it is mostly down. TOP's best friend got on the opposite side of TOP's usually most useful ally. Grämlins were not going down directly, NPO would never be dumb (or nasty?) enough to do that to TOP, but over time it became clear that Grämlins protection started to extend beyond just them, and eventually it got into areas where NPO wanted to step freely. At which point TOP was pretty much sure to have to pick, and as the Karma war showed, NPO had gotten less useful as ally while Grämlins remained a friend as ever. The philosophies were still more closely aligned than with many other alliances (it is no wonder TOP's position remained in doubt to many people prior to the war), but without a dose of mutual benefit it certainly was less than others could offer.

So, the quick summary: yes, TOP gained from its relationship with the NPO, but the reverse is true also. Perhaps TOP gained more, but then again, TOP could gain more; NPO was already just one or two steps from hegemony, while TOP was just tier 2. TOP got fame, NPO got useful allies who just needed to be armed properly. At the start of this war, there was still an element of usefulness, but it certainly had been much reduced from TOP's point of view; still, it was a valued relationship, up to the point where there actually HAD to be a choice between Grämlins and NPO (one TOP desperately tried to avoid, perhaps foolishly). Then, the actions surrounding the negotiations lead to TOP choosing to forego NPO in favour of Grämlins (and several other allies, notable FOK and Umbrella who had been TOP friends since those alliances were small).

I disagree with it being called stabbing in the back; stabbing in the back would be organising Karma rather than (by some) being considered almost a millstone around Karma's neck (a characterisation I also disagree with) and trying to avoid the choice entirely by preventing the war.

I also think it's stupid to try to claim TOP gained nothing from its treaty with the NPO. Certainly, the Non-treaty treaty and its derivatives (Initiative, Continuum) were the best treaties for TOP's growth. But, there was tension from the start of the Intiative up to the Karma war, and eventually that made the bond weak to the point of shattering.

What you see to be saying is thaat TOP made impressive gains because it was allied to NPO and as result and fought alongside it in wars, wars where it did well. This is quite true, but what I was responding to was the idea NPO 'gave' TOP something. TOP fought well for NPO and it benefitted from that; it did not magically transform into an elite alliance because of massive NPO aid or guidance as Chron seems to have implied. As for me not being there; I would say the time I was in TOP was (early on) when TOP received the greatest benefits from the treaty (I also read all the archives at some point and though TOP improved with NPO guidance, it was not a dramatic shift).

To say Crymson was the only good thing that NPO "did" for TOP, or the best, is a joke of premier value which I hope is just coming from pure ignorance of the matter. And about ONOS refugees, one must not forget that TOP doors were closed for non pdoxplaza members for the longest time. If they were to be open before, then it would be something else causing a surge in members.

I said it was the best thing NPO did for TOP. You always complain about meanings being twisted, and yet you did not actually respond to what my post said. Again, TOP fighting well on NPO's side is not NPO 'giving' TOP anything; NPO would allow any alliance to fight on its side without second thought and TOP's success there is indicative of its own ability.

Then why didn't they attack SF when the logs came out revealing that Hoo was plotting a SF+Citadel attack on NPO?

They had the whole treatyweb in place then. Arguably they should have attacked Ragnarok then, with a clear CB and a pile of allies to help them. Instead they prevented this attack.

Look, you can make arguments that they were plotting against C&G or Citadel or any number of other people. But NPO planning an attack on SF just doesn't make sense given they prevented SF's destruction.

I had sort of bought that line of argument- until I read the logs. To call them a clear cut CB is rather silly- declaring over them would have been about as good an idea as declaring over the OV stuff. Also, remember OV is only connected to SF, whereas SF was at the time connected to many hegemony alliances and to CnG and Citadel at the time. Yes, the chaining of treaties made OV's small connections meaningless this time, but NPO would still be declaring an offensive war with a bad CB.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Not really, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that the NPO occasionally had intelligence gathering networks available to them, just as any other alliance does, in order to maintain its security and position.

It was commonly assumed. I only *knew* firsthand that certain allies did it for her, not that she dirtied her own hands with it as well, though of course given the former it naturally followed she would be prone to the latter as well. Thank you for the confirmation.

It is completely unrealistic to believe that any super-alliance that cares about the political dynamic (read: neutrals and some democratic alliances don't care about position) of the Cyberverse wouldn't have at least a minimal intel gathering network available to them as needed.

When I was a neutral I had an intel gathering network, but there was no spying. I have seen no reason to believe the non-neutral alliances I have been in since were any different on that point. You can learn a lot from what an alliance voluntarily reveals, and what they cannot but reveal, without needing to stoop to the point of employing oath-breakers.

Propaganda aside, everyone spies.

There was an interesting psychological study awhile back, that showed that dishonest people tend to believe everyone else is dishonest. You might be projecting just a little here.

[Doitzel]

Well, then history will repeat itself. Apparently, the NPO is resistant to what people call "learning".

News at 11.

[Ivan Moldavi]

There was an interesting psychological study awhile back, that showed that dishonest people tend to believe everyone else is dishonest. You might be projecting just a little here.

There was also an interesting psychological study awhile back that showed that people that kept their heads in the sand never heard the train.

What?

[Sigrun Vapneir]

There was also an interesting psychological study awhile back that showed that people that kept their heads in the sand never heard the train.

What?

How on earth do you figure I have my head in the sand?

I know some alliances do this. I believe I made that perfectly clear already.

I disagree that *all* do this. You claim that "everyone" does it and *that* is a massive exaggeration, and a self-serving one at that.

Either that or you are, like so many others, falling into the trap of conflating "spying" in the special cn sense of infiltrators with normal intelligence gathering aka "receiving information." I was actually rather hoping this was the case and you would clarify but I guess not.

[WalkerNinja]

What?

There is rust on that car!

[Ski11585]

I think Avernite's account of this issue most matches what I would post up to the period shortly following GW3. It was my impression, given what I experienced, that had NPO not approached TOP for an MDP (and later the WUT treaty) that it would have taken much, much longer for TOP to become an influential alliance. Sure, by the time WUT was formed TOP was a powerful alliance in terms of NS, but it was relatively quiet diplomatically.

I would also add that much of TOP's increasing respect and fame was from a significant propaganda effort by WUT alliances in the aftermath of GW2 and during GW3 when FAN and TOP destroyed Legion.

[Ivan Moldavi]

How on earth do you figure I have my head in the sand?

I know some alliances do this. I believe I made that perfectly clear already.

I disagree that *all* do this. You claim that "everyone" does it and *that* is a massive exaggeration, and a self-serving one at that.

Either that or you are, like so many others, falling into the trap of conflating "spying" in the special cn sense of infiltrators with normal intelligence gathering aka "receiving information." I was actually rather hoping this was the case and you would clarify but I guess not.

I believe I said every super-alliance that is jockeying for political attention does it, not every alliance. *Goes back to check.*

Yep, that is what I said.

Prove to me that there is no rust on this fine automobile.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

I believe I said every super-alliance that is jockeying for political attention does it, not every alliance. *Goes back to check.*

Yes you did make a sort of clarification there, but it seemed almost too much an ad hoc justification for why of course your current alliance in current situation wouldnt do it but really how seriously can we take that? You know what you did as Emperor yourself, but you know of real infiltration, not just receiving information, being sponsored by every alliance that was a contender at one point or another for the past, oh, 3 years? Really? That's an awful lot of alliances for you to have pretty deep knowledge of at once, not just your own.

[Ivan Moldavi]

Yes you did make a sort of clarification there, but it seemed almost too much an ad hoc justification for why of course your current alliance in current situation wouldnt do it but really how seriously can we take that? You know what you did as Emperor yourself, but you know of real infiltration, not just receiving information, being sponsored by every alliance that was a contender at one point or another for the past, oh, 3 years? Really? That's an awful lot of alliances for you to have pretty deep knowledge of at once, not just your own.

Which would automatically imply the truth of my initial confirmation, correct?

[Näktergal]

Branimir, those that embrace revisionist history seldom believe that it has been revised. If they did, it would rather defeat the point.

The real problem with revisionist history in CN is that both sides in any given conflict are busy revising it even before a given war starts, spin their way though the entire war, and then the winners do their best to establish the idea that they were right all along while the losers rant to anyone who'll listen that their version is right.

"History is written by the winners" doesn't really apply when you can't kill the losers.

But with so much spin and PR, it makes it difficult even for the people who were THERE for a given conflict to know what was actually going on. The people who only joined later haven't got a chance of hearing an unbiased interpretation of events.

Talk to virtually anyone that forwards a Thomas Jefferson quote to you, and you'll see what I mean.

You mean something like "He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him"?

Now I'm tempted to forward "Good wine is a necessity of life for me" just to confuse the issue.

[WalkerNinja]

You mean something like "He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him"?

Now I'm tempted to forward "Good wine is a necessity of life for me" just to confuse the issue.

No, more like the ones pertaining to banks and the like. Folks remove them from their historical context and lionize Jefferson in ways that they would not if they had any appreciation for who the man actually was and what he actually believed. The next time I hear his words treated like holy scriptures by a crowd of evangelical republicans, I might just die from the irony.

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state.

Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.

I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.

I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too.

[Homura]

Hey man, disrespecting other alliances sovereignty is all the rage now-- just look at OV, they disrespected our sovereignty and they are doing great.

OV will find themselves in hot water sooner or later. What they did was incredibly stupid and would get them on the receiving end of a "curbstomp" unquestionably if they tried it on anyone else. The only reason they got away with it was because it provided a convenient excuse to threaten Pacifica when they got attacked. Also those meddling kids.

[Penkala]

OV will find themselves in hot water sooner or later. What they did was incredibly stupid and would get them on the receiving end of a "curbstomp" unquestionably if they tried it on anyone else. The only reason they got away with it was because it provided a convenient excuse to threaten Pacifica when they got attacked. Also those meddling kids.

And by 'provided an excuse' you mean obligated SF to come to their defense due to pretty clear treaties.

[Letum]

And by 'provided an excuse' you mean obligated SF to come to their defense due to pretty clear treaties.

Yet, ironically, SF actually got involved though optional aggression pacts.