NPO History Discussion

[Ogaden]

Essentially the treaty web was constructed in such a way that whomever initiated the next conflict would be committing suicide. If Ordo Verde or VE or even Sparta had declared war on NPO to initiate the conflict they and anyone who went with them would be curbstomped in the most epic of all curbstompings.

It was not only the initiation by NPO of the conflict but the sheer ham-handedness of the declaration that sealed the fate of the NPO. The war was lost before the first shot was fired.

Edited August 25, 2009 by James Dahl

[WorldConqueror]

It's not valid when it is going to result in something more costly than the original loss of information.

The nearest analogy I can make is this:

WorldConqueror is driving home in his Volvo after a long hard day of work. He is attentive and is respecting all of the rules of the road even though there aren't any police around. SethB just got kicked out of the local bar because he was drinking too much. After crawling to his Mack truck and tossing his vomit-covered flannel shirt out the window, he turns up the Kid Rock and starts cruising down the highway... in the wrong lane.

WorldConqueror sees SethB coming right for him. WorldConqueror, mindful of all the laws of the road, knows that he still possesses the right-of-way, and that SethB is certainly in error. WorldConqueror is under no legal obligation to change lanes. In fact, he plans on sending a message to all drunk drivers by remaining in his lane as SethB careens towards him.

WorldConqueror's principles are no comfort to his wife and children when they come and visit him in the ICU and have to start filling out Social Security paper-work.

----------------

At the end of the day, strength reigns supreme. They had it and the NPO didn't. Who is right and who is wrong doesn't even enter the equation. Just who lived and who died. Yes, that makes most of Karma very terrible hypocrites and feeds straight into the propaganda line "They're just as bad as us!" ((which, coincidentally, is an admission of guilt))

I'm not going to argue whether the trap was right or wrong. The fact is that it was a trap. That's all that matters.

But it wouldn't have been more costly if our allies had stuck by us. I mean, on the face of it, if OV spies on us and spying is considered a valid CB, then there really isn't much room for debate. We declare war, and our allies should support us. Obviously though, there were other factors.

And yes, I know that saying "they are just as bad as us", is an admission of guilt, which is why I don't say it or agree with it.

The logs were released from Sethb's own mouth due to extremely specific hints that they had them during the negotiations. How did they know the details?

As for destruction, I didn't mean numerically.

I don't know, I wasn't there. But it was TORN and TPF that were dropping those very specific hints, wasn't it?

And no, I didn't only mean numerically either.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

To me the jawdropping moment was when NPO declared war, while TOP was mediating talks. It was unbelievable at best, and i was left wondering about how the TOP mediators would react to the action. The talks were not over, TOP was mediating in good faith, and then BAM, one side ups and declares.

[Ogaden]

To me the jawdropping moment was when NPO declared war, while TOP was mediating talks. It was unbelievable at best, and i was left wondering about how the TOP mediators would react to the action. The talks were not over, TOP was mediating in good faith, and then BAM, one side ups and declares.

Well you see you have to see things from the NPO perspective.

From the NPO perspective, not telling TOP, their Continuum allies, that they had already decided to attack Ordo Verde the night before even though TOP was going to be mediating 'talks' the night they were going to attack, is perfectly acceptable under the rules of OpSec. They didn't even tell their own military command, let alone their allies, I was there.

Basically speaking, NPO operates on rules of 'need to know' that the CIA would consider stifling.

[WorldConqueror]

To me the jawdropping moment was when NPO declared war, while TOP was mediating talks. It was unbelievable at best, and i was left wondering about how the TOP mediators would react to the action. The talks were not over, TOP was mediating in good faith, and then BAM, one side ups and declares.

This has been addressed, I won't comment further as I was not actually there.

Not like Ragnarok is a shining beacon of morality and honour, especially regarding the Karma war.

Edited August 25, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Dr. Dan]

I don't know, I wasn't there. But it was TORN and TPF that were dropping those very specific hints, wasn't it?

With whom you through your lot in with.  Are you saying you support those that spy?  

Let's not throw the "spying is OK, now?" mantra into my face.  There's a reason I did not support that CB.

Edit: Ok, well, I'm out of this thread for the night. I hope someone gained something from all this.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Dr. Dan

[WorldConqueror]

With whom you through your lot in with.  Are you saying you support those that spy?  

Let's not throw the "spying is OK, now?" mantra into my face.  There's a reason I did not support that CB.

Edit: Ok, well, I'm out of this thread for the night. I hope someone gained something from all this.

To me, there is a difference between accepting information from an informant who chose to give information, and actively planting operatives into an alliance to gather information. And yeah, I know there's a reason you didn't support the CB. I mean, look at what happened to OG.

And I too am taking my leave of the thread for the moment, should be back in a few hours.

[Essenia]

Oh please. Give me a break. Spying has been one of the oldest CBs in the game.

If NPO didn't spy itself, this would be a lot more convincing. Almost all alliances do things that are technically worthy of a CB by some standards. You were just too powerful to be attacked. Get off your morality horse and admit you were planning to crush SF before TOP and MHA drifted too far off; it's plainly obvious that was the case.

[John Michaels]

If NPO didn't spy itself, this would be a lot more convincing. Almost all alliances do things that are technically worthy of a CB by some standards. You were just too powerful to be attacked. Get off your morality horse and admit you were planning to crush SF before TOP and MHA drifted too far off; it's plainly obvious that was the case.

<Moo-Cows> You know as well as I do that every alliance accepts information

[WorldConqueror]

<Moo-Cows> You know as well as I do that every alliance accepts information

Oh so witty, JM. But to quote myself:

There is a difference between accepting information from an informant who chose to give information, and actively planting operatives into an alliance to gather information.

[Essenia]

There is a difference between accepting information from an informant who chose to give information, and actively planting operatives into an alliance to gather information.

Why hello there Griswalds. How are you doing these days?

[WorldConqueror]

Got anything besides vague allusions, essenia?

[Essenia]

Got anything besides vague allusions, essenia?

No. Deal with it.

[WorldConqueror]

No. Deal with it.

Heh. I thought as much.

[Essenia]

Heh. I thought as much.

The best part is that I'm still right.

[WorldConqueror]

The best part is that I'm still right.

And I think you are the love child of Stalin and Elvis that was frozen at Area 51 until 9/11, which bin Laden used as a cover to set you free. I don't have any proof, but I know I'm right!

[TehChron]

To me the jawdropping moment was when NPO declared war, while TOP was mediating talks. It was unbelievable at best, and i was left wondering about how the TOP mediators would react to the action. The talks were not over, TOP was mediating in good faith, and then BAM, one side ups and declares.

To me the most jawdropping moment was the fact that it TOP took so long to stab the NPO in the back. I mean, granted, the NPO did rule the game for two and a half years, and TOP surely took the first decent opportunity they got, but let's face it:

Those of us in the WUT private channels discussing TOP's reliability as partners and deserving of bank aid waterfalls had you !@#$%^&* pegged right.

You saw the first opportunity to take down the allies that got you into a position you could be even be noteworthy to begin with, and are the only reason you have the number one spot you possess now. Your infra was bought with Pacifican blood, so dress it up however you like, most of us already know that most of the IO's these days lack the cajones or ignorance of diplomacy to call you out for what you were and are; Opportunists.

For an alliance that abhors war and claims to embrace and prefer the infra-hoarding aspects of Cybernations, you guys sure love to play kingmaker.

[Essenia]

To me the most jawdropping moment was the fact that it TOP took so long to stab the NPO in the back. I mean, granted, the NPO did rule the game for two and a half years, and TOP surely took the first decent opportunity they got, but let's face it:

Those of us in the WUT private channels discussing TOP's reliability as partners and deserving of bank aid waterfalls had you !@#$%^&* pegged right.

You saw the first opportunity to take down the allies that got you into a position you could be even be noteworthy to begin with, and are the only reason you have the number one spot you possess now. Your infra was bought with Pacifican blood, so dress it up however you like, most of us already know that most of the IO's these days lack the cajones or ignorance of diplomacy to call you out for what you were and are; Opportunists.

For an alliance that abhors war and claims to embrace and prefer the infra-hoarding aspects of Cybernations, you guys sure love to play kingmaker.

The best thing NPO ever gave TOP was Crymson. We got some guides and a pittance in aidfalls, but TOP wasn't massively strengthened by being friends with NPO- it was already a high NS alliance by the time it became buddies with NPO. We lost real NS during GWII and GWIII and gave you 10x the aid we ever got during the first 4 or so days of the FAN war to save your upper ranks from bill lock.

[TehChron]

The best thing NPO ever gave TOP was Crymson. We got some guides and a pittance in aidfalls, but TOP wasn't massively strengthened by being friends with NPO- it was already a high NS alliance by the time it became buddies with NPO. We lost real NS during GWII and GWIII and gave you 10x the aid we ever got during the first 4 or so days of the FAN war to save your upper ranks from bill lock.

FAN was our mess, so we took responsibility. That you did your duty as allies and saved us from bill lock from the equivalent of open backstabbers and traitors isnt something to hold over anyone's heads. And FAN paid more than enough to cover that debt.

Moreover, high NS? Maybe a few high NS members and absolutely no relevance and nowhere to go without a wealthy patron, I saw logs of our initial diplomatic contacts, essenia. What the hell do you even know, anyway? TOP held us up for nearly a week in declaring GWII and GWIII due to their asinine public vote on a DoW.

Compared to what GOONs sacrificed, you have no right complaining about taking less damage than anyone in those two wars save FAN, and you were assigned the softball targets.

Sacrifice indeed.

[Rafael Nadal]

As I was reading this thread, the topic which shan't be name came up, and I laughed. I don't know why. Just the whole secrecy of the identities, the detective work and subsequent releasing of identities (some right, some wrong), and the crack down on the accusations of it; the entire topic just gives me a chuckle. All I'll say is that whether or not it truly went on, there was certainly some smoke and weird things going on in the past. If nothing else, we have some great historical conspiracy theories.

Also, just wanted to jump in on the discussion between WN, Dr Dan, World Conqueror, and a few others about why NPO entered. I agree with Dr. Dan. I think NPO knew there was going to be a formidable opponent when they attacked OV. I believe they also felt that they needed to attack at that point, instead of holding off and watching their Q members continue to leave. NPO knew their position wasn't at the height of its power, but they attacked because they believed their position would erode further as time went on. It was a "well, we're likely to lose more allies in the coming weeks/months, so we might as well attack now and take our chances, because they're not going to be getting any better". Basically, they were counting on a coalition of beating alliances to cancellations, kind of trapping them in war, since conflict would erupt before the treaty would be voided.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Rafael Nadal

[TehChron]

As I was reading this thread, the topic which shan't be name came up, and I laughed. I don't know why. Just the whole secrecy of the identities, the detective work and subsequent releasing of identities (some right, some wrong), and the crack down on the accusations of it; the entire topic just gives me a chuckle. All I'll say is that whether or not it truly went on, there was certainly some smoke and weird things going on in the past. If nothing else, we have some great historical conspiracy theories.

Also, just wanted to jump in on the discussion between WN, Dr Dan, World Conqueror, and a few others about why NPO entered. I agree with Dr. Dan. I think NPO knew there was going to be a formidable opponent when they attacked OV. I believe they also felt that they needed to attack at that point, instead of holding off and watching their Q members continue to leave. NPO knew their position wasn't at the height of its power, but they attacked because they believed their position would erode further as time went on. It was a "well, we're likely to lose more allies in the coming weeks/months, so we might as well attack now and take our chances, because they're not going to be getting any better". Basically, they were counting on a coalition of beating alliances to cancellations; kind of trapping them in war, since conflict would erupt before the treaty would be voided.

In hindsight not even treaty obligations could guarantee folks to come in on their side.

[WorldConqueror]

it was already a high NS alliance by the time it became buddies with NPO.

I doubt that. TOP and NPO became friends not long after GPW, and TOP was fairly new at the time. They certainly weren't influential players like the NPO, GATO, ODN, Legion, GGA of the time.

[Essenia]

FAN was our mess, so we took responsibility. That you did your duty as allies and saved us from bill lock from the equivalent of open backstabbers and traitors isnt something to hold over anyone's heads. And FAN paid more than enough to cover that debt.

Moreover, high NS? Maybe a few high NS members and absolutely no relevance and nowhere to go without a wealthy patron, I saw logs of our initial diplomatic contacts, essenia. What the hell do you even know, anyway? TOP held us up for nearly a week in declaring GWII and GWIII due to their asinine public vote on a DoW.

Compared to what GOONs sacrificed, you have no right complaining about taking less damage than anyone in those two wars save FAN, and you were assigned the softball targets.

Sacrifice indeed.

NPO was not a 'wealthy patron'. It gave small amounts of aid and some good advice, but it hardly was responsible for TOP's growth. TOP was small, but it had an active and elite core of members, members who did not need any ehlp from NPO. NPO gave TOP many pointers in terms of diplomacy and some for war, but it's not like TOP was small helpless alliance.

For FAN, I wasn't saying TOP acted nobly or better than other WUT alliances as you somehow infer. I simply said that TOP gave NPO far more aid than it ever received, which is true. Also, 'asinine public vote'? TOP is a democratic alliance and the charter called for full votes on wars. You may not have liked it, but that's what you got when you admitted TOP to WUT.

Edited August 25, 2009 by essenia

[WorldConqueror]

I simply said that TOP gave NPO far more aid than it ever received, which is true.

Perhaps in absolute terms, not in real terms. You aren't accounting for inflation.

[Rafael Nadal]

In hindsight not even treaty obligations could guarantee folks to come in on their side.

Says something about both.

Edit: I believe TOP and NPO were friends before TOP became a group of elite NS nations. Obviously, not the level both of friendship and eliteness when they were in WUT, but TOP wasn't elite before befriending NPO. The amount of help and assistance owed to NPO by TOP is debatable.

Also, for whatever it's worth, TOP was always considered the bank of WUT. TOP didn't really fight much; NPO and the others were more of the warrior type, TOP was the one who would could really help fund and rebuild the others.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Rafael Nadal