NPO History Discussion

[Doitzel]

I doubt that. TOP and NPO became friends not long after GPW, and TOP was fairly new at the time. They certainly weren't influential players like the NPO, GATO, ODN, Legion, GGA of the time.

You're very wrong. TOP had the highest average NS of any alliance at the time of WUT's formation and a not-insignificant number of nations. You might also recall that TOP almost single-handedly kicked the crap out of GATO, an alliance many times its own size, in GWII. I can't say how they were viewed around the world but within the Initiative at least TOP was held in as high esteem as all the other member alliances (save maybe CIS).

[WorldConqueror]

You're very wrong. TOP had the highest average NS of any alliance at the time of WUT's formation and a not-insignificant number of nations. You might also recall that TOP almost single-handedly kicked the crap out of GATO, an alliance many times its own size, in GWII. I can't say how they were viewed around the world but within the Initiative at least TOP was held in as high esteem as all the other member alliances (save maybe CIS).

Highest average NS maybe, but that does not make them a high NS alliance nor does it make them influential. I'm not saying they weren't good fighters, or that they weren't respected, just that they weren't a powerhouse before they were friends with Pacifica. And I'm not saying we were necessarily the cause of them becoming one, either. Also, it's not terribly hard to get a high average NS if you have an offsite pool of active members to draw from, and closed recruiting ingame.

[Essenia]

Highest average NS maybe, but that does not make them a high NS alliance nor does it make them influential. I'm not saying they weren't good fighters, or that they weren't respected, just that they weren't a powerhouse before they were friends with Pacifica. And I'm not saying we were necessarily the cause of them becoming one, either. Also, it's not terribly hard to get a high average NS if you have an offsite pool of active members to draw from, and closed recruiting ingame.

TOP actually did recruit- it sent out mass PMs occasionally (that might have been later though) and extremely lax admissions standards for a lengthy period of time ranging from late 06 to July 07.

Edit: I believe TOP and NPO were friends before TOP became a group of elite NS nations. Obviously, not the level both of friendship and eliteness when they were in WUT, but TOP wasn't elite before befriending NPO. The amount of help and assistance owed to NPO by TOP is debatable.

TOP was pretty elite when NPO reached out to it. Inexperienced in a number of things, yes, but TOP had quite a few huge nations and was generally top heavy.

[Steelrat]

Indeed. One of the three Gromlins ( ) who would decide if they got involved or not (it had to be unanimous from my understanding) didn't want to roll. The other two did. A few alliances decided they weren't going to roll if OV got attacked. In fact a few decided they probably wouldn't get involved in the hour or so leading up to the DoW. But then the DoW came in, and the Gremlin gov member changed his mind and decided that Gremlins would help. This paved the way for Citadel support and built enough confidence that we had a chance that those who had pulled out came back in.

I will make it short as i answered that already numerous times. The unnamed Gremlin you mean was Chill and no he wasn´t against the war in principle, but his duty as Praetor = Mofa was to consider any option to avoid Gremlins being in a huge mess and with mess i don´t mean war more our treaty obligations.

I and several other high ranked Gremlins made it absolute clear that we will honor our treaty with MK and FARK in case the !@#$ hits the fan, we won´t stand aside if one of them were killed. In the end the result was a huge mess anyway because to fight IRON we put a heavy burden on TOP and violated Lux Aeterna.

To me the most jawdropping moment was the fact that it TOP took so long to stab the NPO in the back. I mean, granted, the NPO did rule the game for two and a half years, and TOP surely took the first decent opportunity they got, but let's face it:

Those of us in the WUT private channels discussing TOP's reliability as partners and deserving of bank aid waterfalls had you !@#$%^&* pegged right.

You saw the first opportunity to take down the allies that got you into a position you could be even be noteworthy to begin with, and are the only reason you have the number one spot you possess now. Your infra was bought with Pacifican blood, so dress it up however you like, most of us already know that most of the IO's these days lack the cajones or ignorance of diplomacy to call you out for what you were and are; Opportunists.

For an alliance that abhors war and claims to embrace and prefer the infra-hoarding aspects of Cybernations, you guys sure love to play kingmaker.

That´s quite bitter on your end, it may be that you don´t know TOP that well and never understood how they operate. I´m going to generalize here but TOP nations don´t fear to loose Infra, it´s about the right thing.

Highest average NS maybe, but that does not make them a high NS alliance nor does it make them influential. I'm not saying they weren't good fighters, or that they weren't respected, just that they weren't a powerhouse before they were friends with Pacifica. And I'm not saying we were necessarily the cause of them becoming one, either. Also, it's not terribly hard to get a high average NS if you have an offsite pool of active members to draw from, and closed recruiting ingame.

That´s a contradiction itself, high NS nations are the backbone of every alliance and having a lot of them makes you literally unattackable with benefit. Pure NS in CN doesn´t matter since some time, i thought the public realised that after the NPO vs MK war, at the latest .

You don´t need to be a powerhouse on stage every day, you just need to throw in your weight at important events.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Steelrat

[WorldConqueror]

I will make it short as i answered that already numerous times. The unnamed Gremlin you mean was Chill and no he wasn´t against the war in principle, but his duty as Praetor = Mofa was to consider any option to avoid Gremlins being in a huge mess and with mess i don´t mean war more our treaty obligations.

I and several other high ranked Gremlins made it absolute clear that we will honor our treaty with MK and FARK in case the !@#$ hits the fan, we won´t stand aside if one of them were killed. In the end the result was a huge mess anyway because to fight IRON we put a heavy burden on TOP and violated Lux Aeterna.

So you pushed Chill into a decision that resulted in him failing in his duty as Praetor. A decision that resulted in you going to war against an alliance you held a treaty with until shortly before. A decision that made you violate the treaty that forms Citadel. :golfclap: And here I thought Gremlins were all about morality and doing the right thing.

That´s a contradiction itself, high NS nations are the backbone of every alliance and having a lot of them makes you literally unattackable with benefit. Pure NS in CN doesn´t matter since some time, i thought the public realised that after the NPO vs MK war, at the latest .

You don´t need to be a powerhouse on stage every day, you just need to throw in your weight at important events.

Oh look, I know you Gremlins like to brag about your stats, but that wasn't what I was saying. The biggest nation in CN could create a one man alliance and it would have the highest average NS in the game. Doesn't mean that alliance is a powerhouse, or is going to have any influence whatsoever. Nowhere was TOP's total NS or number of nations mentioned. Yes, if you have a lot of high NS nations your alliance is going to fare better in war. My post that this quote is responding to had nothing to do with that.

[Rebel Virginia]

NPO was not a 'wealthy patron'. It gave small amounts of aid and some good advice, but it hardly was responsible for TOP's growth. TOP was small, but it had an active and elite core of members, members who did not need any ehlp from NPO. NPO gave TOP many pointers in terms of diplomacy and some for war, but it's not like TOP was small helpless alliance.

Are you really trying to claim that TOP would be where it is today without the NPO? TOP was an insignificant alliance before WUT. What would you have done? Sided with the League, or stayed neutral? Okay, you made a good show against GATO during GWII, but face it, that didn't mean much. You didn't bring any allies to the table. So you were a decent sized alliance during the UjW, but you did nothing there. Frankly you didn't become that relevant until after that war, when you grew a good lot due to the ex-GOONS joining up with you. But yeah, I mean, come on, you wouldn't have made it through those early stages without NPO. Well, maybe, but you wouldn't have been in the position to be where you are today. NPO made you.

As for Crymson, so what? We all hated him anyway. There was celebration after he left you know? Especially amongst the government of the time.

[Essenia]

Are you really trying to claim that TOP would be where it is today without the NPO? TOP was an insignificant alliance before WUT. What would you have done? Sided with the League, or stayed neutral? Okay, you made a good show against GATO during GWII, but face it, that didn't mean much. You didn't bring any allies to the table. So you were a decent sized alliance during the UjW, but you did nothing there. Frankly you didn't become that relevant until after that war, when you grew a good lot due to the ex-GOONS joining up with you. But yeah, I mean, come on, you wouldn't have made it through those early stages without NPO. Well, maybe, but you wouldn't have been in the position to be where you are today. NPO made you.

As for Crymson, so what? We all hated him anyway. There was celebration after he left you know? Especially amongst the government of the time.

More important to TOP's growth than the ex-UJP (though they were important) was the influx of VE and ONOS members and NPO (or GGA I guess) decided to crush those two alliances. TOP grew immensely and the members of those alliances became leaders of the alliance. I guess you could say NPO caused that, but that's rather twisted logic.

Also, I'm quite aware that Crymson didn't have a great time in NPO (from his own remarks) and that you were glad he left (his resignation thread contains a rude post by Koona). That doesn't change the fact that he (and his allies I suppose) turned TOP from an above average quality alliance into the premier alliance in Cybernations.

[Rebel Virginia]

More important to TOP's growth than the ex-UJP (though they were important) was the influx of VE and ONOS members and NPO (or GGA I guess) decided to crush those two alliances. TOP grew immensely and the members of those alliances became leaders of the alliance. I guess you could say NPO caused that, but that's rather twisted logic.

Also, I'm quite aware that Crymson didn't have a great time in NPO (from his own remarks) and that you were glad he left (his resignation thread contains a rude post by Koona). That doesn't change the fact that he (and his allies I suppose) turned TOP from an above average quality alliance into the premier alliance in Cybernations.

Well thank you for admitting that you needed the NPO early on. About time as well, because it is silly to deny the roll the NPO played. Now, as for you being the premier alliance, that's a bit of a stretch in my mind. There is quite a few alliances I hold in higher regard than TOP.

But this isn't about TOP now is it? This is about the NPO, so let's keep that in mind shall we. As for ONOS and VE, they both deserved what they got.

[WorldConqueror]

For some reason, although I had far more fun in GWIII, and GWIII cemented Pacifica's dominant position in CN, my fondest memories are of the ONOS war. Good times.

Edited August 25, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Rebel Virginia]

For some reason, although I had far more fun in GWIII, and GWIII cemented Pacifica's dominate position in CN, my fondest memories are of the ONOS war. Good times.

You know, although I did a lot of work in the aftermath of that war, updating lists and stuff of people in the ONOS who were compliant in the viceroy regime, meaning they got peace, and who refused to surrender, I missed the war. Was away for one night, and in the time we did a number on them. Couldn't find any slots, and they crumbled quickly. Amusing as a look back on it.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[Steelrat]

So you pushed Chill into a decision that resulted in him failing in his duty as Praetor. A decision that resulted in you going to war against an alliance you held a treaty with until shortly before. A decision that made you violate the treaty that forms Citadel. :golfclap: And here I thought Gremlins were all about morality and doing the right thing.

Chill was never pushed, he exactly knew about Gremlin´s members stand on that issue, he knew what was at stake, not less than the survival of two of our allies. He explored all possible options and he wasn´t shy to throw in Gremlins weight when needed. That was seen by some Karma alliances as Chill was going to chicken out with Gremlins.

When the survival of friends is at stake, well you use any action by all means necassary. That´s the Gremlins way, you can ask VE about it when the Green massacre happened and we were prepared to fight and die with VE.

Oh look, I know you Gremlins like to brag about your stats, but that wasn't what I was saying. The biggest nation in CN could create a one man alliance and it would have the highest average NS in the game. Doesn't mean that alliance is a powerhouse, or is going to have any influence whatsoever. Nowhere was TOP's total NS or number of nations mentioned. Yes, if you have a lot of high NS nations your alliance is going to fare better in war. My post that this quote is responding to had nothing to do with that.

Then i misunderstood your orginal post.

About NPO and it´s decison to enter that war, my best guess is soemthing along the line of Fallen Fool and DrDan with the addition of wishful hoping, combined with some old habit of arrogance to win that war.

[Branimir]

Although per the virtue of the thread's title, this isn't history of TOP, I do have a need to educate the illiterates who speak about stuff they do not know first thing about.

Why breaking up of the relations between NPO and TOP was a bit shocking and painful for a lot of people in both camps was that they were tied from the first moment TOP entered into this realm. Those saying how NPO didn't had much to do to help TOP establish themselves do not have a first clue about anything and should really keep their mouths shut.

To say Crymson was the only good thing that NPO "did" for TOP, or the best, is a joke of premier value which I hope is just coming from pure ignorance of the matter. And about ONOS refugees, one must not forget that TOP doors were closed for non pdoxplaza members for the longest time. If they were to be open before, then it would be something else causing a surge in members.

So from the first day that original 9 pdoxplaza members formed a CN board to the moment they decided to form an alliance, the bond existed. Originally Veng did help in that phase with his advice and help, in forming this random group of people into an alliance, to later on bonding of two alliances via MDP in time when TOP was essentially irrelevant for the global picture. That MDP was before WUT. Of course, TOP is to thank for great success of TOP. That is not under any kind of question. I am just saying here though that for a long time there NPO did help TOP in their endeavor to become what they are now, and that noticeably.

This is all I have to say on the matter, old pdoxplaza members know what I am talking about. They build that alliance themselves, but we were there for them from the very beginning. I know that from the very beginning a lot of pdoxplaza members didn't like NPO, but I also know they will not deny that NPO was a helpful hand for TOP in a larger way then some who do not know the matter here are trying to say.

Of course now the relationship is broken and there will be no fixing it, but let us not completely forget the past for the purposes of todays political spin. It isn't necessary.

[Ivan Moldavi]

There is a difference between accepting information from an informant who chose to give information, and actively planting operatives into an alliance to gather information.

I can't comment on recent NPO history but historically (at least when I was there) we did spy. We had whole forums set up for it, with operatives pretty much everywhere of "importance". I believe much of that is common knowledge these days, right?

[Branimir]

I can't comment on recent NPO history but historically (at least when I was there) we did spy. We had whole forums set up for it, with operatives pretty much everywhere of "importance". I believe much of that is common knowledge these days, right?

Being sarcastic here, right?

[Ivan Moldavi]

Being sarcastic here, right?

Not really, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that the NPO occasionally had intelligence gathering networks available to them, just as any other alliance does, in order to maintain its security and position.

It is completely unrealistic to believe that any super-alliance that cares about the political dynamic (read: neutrals and some democratic alliances don't care about position) of the Cyberverse wouldn't have at least a minimal intel gathering network available to them as needed.

Propaganda aside, everyone spies.

[John Michaels]

Oh so witty, JM. But to quote myself:

There is a difference between accepting information from an informant who chose to give information, and actively planting operatives into an alliance to gather information.

You're right. Good to know OV only did the former and not the latter.

[Branimir]

Not really, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that the NPO occasionally had intelligence gathering networks available to them, just as any other alliance does, in order to maintain its security and position.

It is completely unrealistic to believe that any super-alliance that cares about the political dynamic (read: neutrals and some democratic alliances don't care about position) of the Cyberverse wouldn't have at least a minimal intel gathering network available to them as needed.

Propaganda aside, everyone spies.

I can not confirm or deny your claims, seeing as how I never was high enough to know of what you are talking about, as such I leave this to those that could.

I know though what I know, all NPO members were always drilled that we do not spy. In public or in private, in chat rooms or in queries. That of course, does not prove or deny the truthfulness of your claim.

Now, what is of interest here for me is your need to even "go there". I don't know what your motive is for this, emperor emeritus, but I find it interesting.

Also implications are interesting as well, so I guess NSO spies?

[bkphysics]

Not really, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that the NPO occasionally had intelligence gathering networks available to them, just as any other alliance does, in order to maintain its security and position.

It is completely unrealistic to believe that any super-alliance that cares about the political dynamic (read: neutrals and some democratic alliances don't care about position) of the Cyberverse wouldn't have at least a minimal intel gathering network available to them as needed.

Propaganda aside, everyone spies.

It's pretty much common knowledge unless you are trying to stand on a pedestal and decry spying.

[R&R-Viking]

You're right. Good to know OV only did the former and not the latter.

The latter is fine and dandy for "security".

Only sometimes, though. Depending on whims.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I can not confirm or deny your claims, seeing as how I never was high enough to know of what you are talking about, as such I leave this to those that could.

I know though what I know, all NPO members were always drilled that we do not spy. In public or in private, in chat rooms or in queries. That of course, does not prove or deny the truthfulness of your claim.

Now, what is of interest here for me is your need to even "go there". I don't know what your motive is for this, emperor emeritus, but I find it interesting.

Also implications are interesting as well, so I guess NSO spies?

First, this is an OOC forum, so it was an OOC comment. Here I am not Imperator Emeritus of the NPO (and as far as the NPO goes I am not IC either anymore according to my status there), I am just a player taking part in an ongoing discussion.

I have no motive, I was simply pointing out the error of a prior post and pointing out the commonly accepted realization that all alliances, especially large ones that are constantly jockeying for position, spy. I made a point of stating that I have no knowledge of current NPO operating practices.

And yes, if the NSO becomes a super-alliance with the need to jockey for political position, we will spy.

[Näktergal]

Not really, I thought it was common knowledge at this point that the NPO occasionally had intelligence gathering networks available to them, just as any other alliance does, in order to maintain its security and position.

I've always assumed it was common knowledge to anyone paying attention for at least 3 years now.

In fact, there's a reason why I always tend to link to this video whenever talk about spies in CN comes up. I think it absolutely sums up how most of the significant alliances tend to view spying in general. Or, at least, how most of the really vehement condemnations of spies from other alliances tends to ring a bit hypocritical.

[Ivan Moldavi]

I've always assumed it was common knowledge to anyone paying attention for at least 3 years now.

In fact, there's a reason why I always tend to link to this video whenever talk about spies in CN comes up. I think it absolutely sums up how most of the significant alliances tend to view spying in general. Or, at least, how most of the really vehement condemnations of spies from other alliances tends to ring a bit hypocritical.

Oh no, do not misunderstand me. I think anyone caught spying should be punished severely and swiftly.

[sammykhalifa]

Or, at least, how most of the really vehement condemnations of spies from other alliances tends to ring a bit hypocritical.

Every time I see that "spying is bad, mmk?" meme I want to punch a hole through my monitor and set fire to everyone on the other side.

It's quite possible the singlemost annoying thing in CN to me.

[Branimir]

First, this is an OOC forum

A mistake which I made at the beginning. This isn't really an OOC forum by any means then its desired purpose which went unheard.

I don't take it as an OOC forum, there is no reason to because it is not a OOC forum.

I have no motive.

Well, if you say so.

And yes, if the NSO becomes a super-alliance with the need to jockey for political position, we will spy.

Will?

"Super-alliance" as a precondition to start your spying for political gain sounds a bit hallow, of course alliances of your size and ambitions have all the reasons to spy for political gain as any other "super-alliance".

Now, if the prior posts of yours are completely true, you cant really dump into NPO's lap damaging bomb shell that in the past it spied under you, and not get that poorly reflected onto you or your current alliance. Provisional terms like "super-alliance"aside, as they are irrelevant.

[King Srqt]

We attacked OV. Not SF, not C&G, not Citadel. We held treaties with a lot of alliances that used aggressive clauses to enter the war on Karma's side. You think that's ok, because it was done to take down big bad Pacifica. I don't agree.

Attacking OV was the equivalent of attacking SF and your government knew it. OV was an MADP partner of GOD and had no choice but to enter and everyone knew damn well that if GOD entered SF entered as a whole. You can sit and try and paint alliances like RIA as bad allies all you like but in the end you made an aggressive action that put your treaty partner in a position where they would have no choice but to fight on the opposite side of you and you knew you were doing it when you declared.

This is half-right.

There were plans to attack the NPO. They never got put into play because the rest of the statement is right.

There were never plans to attack NPO, I was in all the channels and I saw all the planning. we were planning for defense and unless you count someone occasionally saying "what would happen if we attacked NPO" and everyone else saying "lol no" as "plans" then it never happened.