NPO History Discussion

[WorldConqueror]

It's certainly true that most of large NPO nations fought, the problem is that NPO fought considerably less hard than many of its allies. That's not your 'fault' necessarily, but it does make you look bad, even if 70-80% or so of your upper ranks fought.

Fought less hard? We were in a nuclear war for 3 months. We lost more NS than anyone. I fail to see how we fought less hard than anyone.

[Essenia]

Fought less hard? We were in a nuclear war for 3 months. We lost more NS than anyone. I fail to see how we fought less hard than anyone.

First, TPF quite clearly fought harder than you. They let their banks out of peace mode and ended up at around 1/7 of their prewar strength as opposed to ~1/5 for NPO. You left around 40 nations over 7k infra in peace mode, far more than most alliances did proportionally. IRON got around 90 members knocked out of the top 5% as opposed to 70 for you (I'm taking decom into account).

[Haflinger]

First, TPF quite clearly fought harder than you. They let their banks out of peace mode and ended up at around 1/7 of their prewar strength as opposed to ~1/5 for NPO. You left around 40 nations over 7k infra in peace mode, far more than most alliances did proportionally. IRON got around 90 members knocked out of the top 5% as opposed to 70 for you (I'm taking decom into account).

IRON kept a significantly higher percentage of their prewar NS, and also paid massively less reps.

If NPO had fought the way TPF did, they would never have been able to pay any reps at all. Eternal war wasn't something they wanted.

[WorldConqueror]

First, TPF quite clearly fought harder than you. They let their banks out of peace mode and ended up at around 1/7 of their prewar strength as opposed to ~1/5 for NPO. You left around 40 nations over 7k infra in peace mode, far more than most alliances did proportionally. IRON got around 90 members knocked out of the top 5% as opposed to 70 for you (I'm taking decom into account).

Ok, I'll give you TPF, but since when does 1=many? Is that the post-Karma fuzzy maths coming through again? IRON had more members in the top 5% to be knocked out of it. If you're going to demonise us because we had banks in peace mode, so be it.

[WcaesarD]

IRON kept a significantly higher percentage of their prewar NS, and also paid massively less reps

At this point, IRON has paid more reps than NPO has, I believe. When it's all said and done, sure, that will be true, but it isn't at all right now.

[shahenshah]

At that time, impression was that NPO was in war for a long haul, longer than anyone else in Heg, so they played their cards accordingly as far as peace mode is concerned. There this strategy only got more effective due to Karma's inability to prevent nations from slipping into PM knowing full well that seemed to be the intention of NPO.

[WorldConqueror]

At this point, IRON has paid more reps than NPO has, I believe. When it's all said and done, sure, that will be true, but it isn't at all right now.

They have had a lot longer to pay them too, so I don't see the point you are trying to make.

[HellAngel]

If Chill was always going to bring Gremlins in on Karma's side, why did you and other high ranking Gremlins have to convince him it was a good idea? You say you came in to stop FARK and MK being killed. Are you serious? You think after the FARKlands war that anyone would really try to kill FARK? They are the cockroaches on CN, you can't kill them. As for MK, remember WotC? If they were going to be killed, they would have been then. Funny you mention the Green Civil War. Hilarious even. Since if you look at the history, there were 4 signatories of the Green Solidarity Pact. 3 of those fought. Who didn't? That's right, Gremlins. Fight and die? You weren't even prepared to fight, let alone die.

With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

In the green civil war, targets were already getting handed out and Gremlins were ready to engage when Ardus came to us telling us that VE is going to disband and we should stay out to fight the war another day.

You also have no idea what it was like to be a gremlin back then. We were fed up with CN. We constantly got bullied by GGA and GOONS. We really didnt care much about the game anymore. Any spark could have send us nuke blazing onto WUT alliances.

Funny how we survived them all.

[Steelrat]

If Chill was always going to bring Gremlins in on Karma's side, why did you and other high ranking Gremlins have to convince him it was a good idea? You say you came in to stop FARK and MK being killed. Are you serious? You think after the FARKlands war that anyone would really try to kill FARK? They are the cockroaches on CN, you can't kill them. As for MK, remember WotC? If they were going to be killed, they would have been then. Funny you mention the Green Civil War. Hilarious even. Since if you look at the history, there were 4 signatories of the Green Solidarity Pact. 3 of those fought. Who didn't? That's right, Gremlins. Fight and die? You weren't even prepared to fight, let alone die.

With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

In the green civil war, targets were already getting handed out and Gremlins were ready to engage when Ardus came to us telling us that VE is going to disband and we should stay out to fight the war another day.

You also have no idea what it was like to be a gremlin back then. We were fed up with CN. We constantly got bullied by GGA and GOONS. We really didnt care much about the game anymore. Any spark could have send us nuke blazing onto WUT alliances.

Funny how we survived them all.

Hellangel was faster.....

The Green civil war was the second time we thought it´s annihilation day. In fact TOP saved us later from going out with a firework, Tony the Tiger came to our board and started to interact with us as result we treatied TOP some months later. Without that you can be sure sooner or later GGA or GOONS would have eaten our small ~500 nukes arsenal.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Steelrat

[WorldConqueror]

With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

In the green civil war, targets were already getting handed out and Gremlins were ready to engage when Ardus came to us telling us that VE is going to disband and we should stay out to fight the war another day.

You also have no idea what it was like to be a gremlin back then. We were fed up with CN. We constantly got bullied by GGA and GOONS. We really didnt care much about the game anymore. Any spark could have send us nuke blazing onto WUT alliances.

Funny how we survived them all.

I really can't remember the timeline, but VE, NTO and CIS fought. Gremlins didn't. Why weren't you there at the start?

And to go along with the point above, if any spark could have sent you into WUT, well GGA and GOONS provided you a bushfire in the GCW.

Survived them all? Some of them maybe, the rest of us are still here. And you allied with most of the ex-WUT still standing, so what are you trying to say?

[HellAngel]

I really can't remember the timeline, but VE, NTO and CIS fought. Gremlins didn't. Why weren't you there at the start?

And to go along with the point above, if any spark could have sent you into WUT, well GGA and GOONS provided you a bushfire in the GCW.

Survived them all? Some of them maybe, the rest of us are still here. And you allied with most of the ex-WUT still standing, so what are you trying to say?

Thats because we didnt get attacked. You attacked NTO, VE and CIS, but you didnt attacked us. And i already said why we didnt join. We were asked to stay out. We were also kinda disappointed VE didnt want our help (with good reason though).

That last comment wasnt really well thought-through, that was just a general feeling i had when writing, but most? What are you talking about? We're allied to TOP, thats about it.

[Steelrat]

I really can't remember the timeline, but VE, NTO and CIS fought. Gremlins didn't. Why weren't you there at the start?

And to go along with the point above, if any spark could have sent you into WUT, well GGA and GOONS provided you a bushfire in the GCW.

Survived them all? Some of them maybe, the rest of us are still here. And you allied with most of the ex-WUT still standing, so what are you trying to say?

Yep, VE, NTO and CIS were declared on, surprinsingly Grämlins was spared the first day, i guess it had to do with our nukes and nuke policy back then. The same day Ardus from VE came to us and told us to stand down because VE will disband, NTO and CIS will surrender. The reason to proof a point was gone and that was our intention in the first place.

[WorldConqueror]

Thats because we didnt get attacked. You attacked NTO, VE and CIS, but you didnt attacked us. And i already said why we didnt join. We were asked to stay out. We were also kinda disappointed VE didnt want our help (with good reason though).

That last comment wasnt really well thought-through, that was just a general feeling i had when writing, but most? What are you talking about? We're allied to TOP, thats about it.

But Green Solidarity was a defence pact, it shouldn't have matter that you weren't attacked. Did VE disband the day they got attacked? I honestly can't remember. If they did, then that makes sense. But if they didn't, then surely Gremlins should have reacted, with your guys activity levels.

When you were in the Continuum, you were allied with NPO, TPF, MCXA and TOP who are all ex-WUT. If you are trying to argue that WUT was a group of evil *$$^&*#@ who you hated, then joining the Continuum really doesn't support that.

EDIT:

The same day Ardus from VE came to us and told us to stand down because VE will disband, NTO and CIS will surrender. The reason to proof a point was gone and that was our intention in the first place.

Ah ok, I thought the war lasted longer than that.

Edited August 26, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[HellAngel]

But Green Solidarity was a defence pact, it shouldn't have matter that you weren't attacked. Did VE disband the day they got attacked? I honestly can't remember. If they did, then that makes sense. But if they didn't, then surely Gremlins should have reacted, with your guys activity levels.

When you were in the Continuum, you were allied with NPO, TPF, MCXA and TOP who are all ex-WUT. If you are trying to argue that WUT was a group of evil *$$^&*#@ who you hated, then joining the Continuum really doesn't support that.

You're making it pretty easy for the sake of your argument. I never said NPO, TPF, MCXA or TOP were evil. I was mentioning GGA and GOONS (and i even didnt say THEY were evil).

NPO we kinda didnt like, but have had friendly contact with in GW3, so we were indifferent towards them.

Also, the time Continuum was signed, the world was very very different from the time the Viridicide happened. You cant just throw all of it in one bowl and draw conclusions.

And i already said, we didnt follow the pact because we were asked not to. What point does it make if even the alliance you owe something to doesnt want it?

As it turned out, we got to fight it out eventually when VE's treaty partner got attacked by NPO. I considere the debt to be paid.

[WorldConqueror]

You're making it pretty easy for the sake of your argument. I never said NPO, TPF, MCXA or TOP were evil. I was mentioning GGA and GOONS (and i even didnt say THEY were evil).

NPO we kinda didnt like, but have had friendly contact with in GW3, so we were indifferent towards them.

Also, the time Continuum was signed, the world was very very different from the time the Viridicide happened. You cant just throw all of it in one bowl and draw conclusions.

And i already said, we didnt follow the pact because we were asked not to. What point does it make if even the alliance you owe something to doesnt want it?

As it turned out, we got to fight it out eventually when VE's treaty partner got attacked by NPO. I considere the debt to be paid.

No, but you did say: Any spark could have send us nuke blazing onto WUT alliances. Funny how we survived them all.

Which doesn't sound like you hold them in any high regard or would ally with them. Yes, and its pretty clear you don't like NPO. Funny how I never saw any of that until the leadup to the Karma war.

They were still the same alliances, who operated and thought the same way.

Yes but you said that VE didnt want the help once they had decided to disband. I assumed the war went on for at least a few days, and so I wondered what Gremlins were doing between the DoW and VE saying they didn't want help. But since VE got attacked and disbanded the same day, it now makes sense why you didn't join.

[Doitzel]

Fought less hard? We were in a nuclear war for 3 months. We lost more NS than anyone.

Excuse me while I retrieve my violin.

[WorldConqueror]

Excuse me while I retrieve my violin.

Am I asking for sympathy? I'm stating fact, in response to someone trying to paint us as cowards. But I wouldn't mind a bit of serenading while I eat. Cheers Doitz.

[HellAngel]

No, but you did say: Any spark could have send us nuke blazing onto WUT alliances. Funny how we survived them all.

Which doesn't sound like you hold them in any high regard or would ally with them. Yes, and its pretty clear you don't like NPO. Funny how I never saw any of that until the leadup to the Karma war.

Now please dont tell me NPO thought highly of Gremlins. It's not like we didnt get constant anonymous warnings from spy rings and internals alike that we are about to get rolled.

Those statements might have been exaggerated, but they werent totally unfounded.

[HellAngel]

They were still the same alliances, who operated and thought the same way.

The reasons we joined Continuum were plenty. Of course there were alliances in it that we wouldnt have given an individual MDP, but there were also alliances in it who we saw (and see) as our closest allies. Back when Q was about to be formed, we discussed our possible participation at length and came to the conclusion that the world would be better off if Gremlins were able to help shape the politics of the most powerful bloc. As it turned out, our influence was only marginal and i count advertising Continuum in Gremlins as one of my largest mistakes.

Whats done is done though.

[WorldConqueror]

Now please dont tell me NPO thought highly of Gremlins. It's not like we didnt get constant anonymous warnings from spy rings and internals alike that we are about to get rolled.

Those statements might have been exaggerated, but they werent totally unfounded.

Right, because rumors are good things to go by. Pacifica might not have loved Gremlins, and we weren't happy when you left the Continuum, but there was respect, and we weren't planning to turn around and wipe you out. A few members that made disparaging remarks after you left the Continuum were told to can it. How much of your own propaganda do you Karmaites swallow?

[Jack Diorno]

The reasons we joined Continuum were plenty. Of course there were alliances in it that we wouldnt have given an individual MDP, but there were also alliances in it who we saw (and see) as our closest allies. Back when Q was about to be formed, we discussed our possible participation at length and came to the conclusion that the world would be better off if Gremlins were able to help shape the politics of the most powerful bloc. As it turned out, our influence was only marginal and i count advertising Continuum in Gremlins as one of my largest mistakes.

Whats done is done though.

Gremlins leaving Q was a big step in its downfall, it was a glimmer of hope when one of the most respected and strong alliances in the game left the untouchable Q. I doubt the gremlins would of had such a large impact if they weren't a part of Q in the first place, so being a part of Q wasn't such a bad decision in my opinion, I certainly haven't lost any respect for gremlins over it.

[WorldConqueror]

Gremlins leaving Q was a big step in its downfall, it was a glimmer of hope when one of the most respected and strong alliances in the game left the untouchable Q. I doubt the gremlins would of had such a large impact if they weren't a part of Q in the first place, so being a part of Q wasn't such a bad decision in my opinion, I certainly haven't lost any respect for gremlins over it.

So the Continuum was all that was wrong with Planet Bob, yet it's cool that the Gremlins were a part of it?

[Jack Diorno]

So the Continuum was all that was wrong with Planet Bob, yet it's cool that the Gremlins were a part of it?

The continuum was a large part of something greater I disliked about the politics in this game. What I disliked was that NPO was firmly in control of world politics and no alliance ever stood up against them, just merely tried to stay on their good side, the game deteriorated from politics into 'who is better friends with NPO'.

Gremlins made a big move in leaving continuum which openly made them a target of this power structure, that is something that no other alliance at the time had the courage to do and deserves a lot of my respect. Continuum was bad yes, but gremlins did the right thing in my eyes.

[WorldConqueror]

The continuum was a large part of something greater I disliked about the politics in this game. What I disliked was that NPO was firmly in control of world politics and no alliance ever stood up against them, just merely tried to stay on their good side, the game deteriorated from politics into 'who is better friends with NPO'.

Gremlins made a big move in leaving continuum which openly made them a target of this power structure, that is something that no other alliance at the time had the courage to do and deserves a lot of my respect. Continuum was bad yes, but gremlins did the right thing in my eyes.

How did that openly make them a target? Especially when they still had Citadel, and 2/5 of Citadel were still in the Continuum. Also, how can it be a good thing that they were a part of the Continuum, and also good that they left it?

[HellAngel]

Right, because rumors are good things to go by. Pacifica might not have loved Gremlins, and we weren't happy when you left the Continuum, but there was respect, and we weren't planning to turn around and wipe you out. A few members that made disparaging remarks after you left the Continuum were told to can it. How much of your own propaganda do you Karmaites swallow?

Dont get me wrong, Gremlins also gained some respect for Continuum alliances during our stay and we never planned to fight. Heck, we signed an MDP with MCXA.

We just got drawn into the war like most of the other alliances. You just cant let an awesome ally like Fark get pounded and watch.

The reason i regret advertising our participation is one completely related to the gremlins internal character. We are idealists and we compromised for the sake of being on the grand political stage. We participated by proxy in atrocities directly opposed to the way we think.

Basically it's the old battle realism vs idealism. And its an online game. What damage do you need to fear for being an idealist? Your 1's turned into 0's? Thats laughable.