NPO History Discussion

[Zeta Defender]

I feel we just beat you to the punch, thanks to MK. I thoroughly enjoyed watching you get rolled after we posted our exit thread

The amount of crap in this post in beyond my understand. You want to stir up this, try it.

[Virillus]

NPO was the main political force behind the Continuum, which was a massive power bloc that prevented wars. because everyone liked fighting, everyone didn't like the Continuum.

I thought I'd fix that for you.

[mythicknight]

The amount of crap in this post in beyond my understand. You want to stir up this, try it.

What?

[WorldConqueror]

I thought I'd fix that for you.

...Says an ODN member.

EDIT: Replace the second in with is, mythicknight, and add ing onto understand.

Edited August 27, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Fallen Fool]

Actually, he only just went to arguing that they committed illegitimate actions.

Before he was arguing "Most of the wars they fight in are lopsided in their favour." Well if that's a crime, we have a huge cast of villains, including your alliance.

Actually what he said was:

Last I checked NPO's entire history consists of timing lopsided alliance wars to minimize PR damage, even when they were blatantly betraying allies they had sworn to protect.

But hey, don't let little things like facts get in the way of your blatant misrepresentation of his argument or stop your weak attempt to play the moral relativity card. Edited August 27, 2009 by Fallen_Fool

[RandomInterrupt]

Also, I personally (and I'm sure I'm not alone) would like to see a close relationship between NPO and the Frostbite alliances. However, realistically it seems very unlikely.

Start by getting rid of that abhorrent sig.

[WorldConqueror]

Start by getting rid of that abhorrent sig.

My sig is a barrier to better relations between Frostbite and Pacifica? I would have thought you would see the humour in it.

[mythicknight]

EDIT: Replace the second in with is, mythicknight, and add ing onto understand.

Oh. In that case, I suppose I already did

[WorldConqueror]

Oh. In that case, I suppose I already did

Heh, true enough.

[Azaghul]

A whole lot of alliances have only ever participated in lopsided alliance wars in their favour.

Actually it's a short list of surviving alliances who have fought on the losing side of lopsided alliance wars. Out of the larger blocs, really it's just C&G, Poseidon and CDT which have done that (USN and Menotah were the only member alliances to not fight in Karma, and USN, well, defended CSN in the GATO war; while out of C&G member alliances, only Vanguard has managed to avoid being curbstomped at some point as far as I know).

You forgot FoB.

[Valerius]

Just because there are wars in the past that we happened to win, does not mean we were sitting there plotting who we could 'curbstomp'. If alliances screw up and stumble into the crosshairs, are we supposed to give them a pat on the back and say "better luck next time"? I think not.

I like you, but I refuse to let you get away with that one. The numerous curbstomps were based on elaborate fabrications and excuses for war where war was not necessary. Pacifica is not the only one to blame, but she is most certainly responsible for the unfair destruction of many alliances. I wasn't aware that that was even being disputed anymore.

[WorldConqueror]

I like you, but I refuse to let you get away with that one. The numerous curbstomps were based on elaborate fabrications and excuses for war where war was not necessary. Pacifica is not the only one to blame, but she is most certainly responsible for the unfair destruction of many alliances. I wasn't aware that that was even being disputed anymore.

Well, that's all a matter of opinion isn't it? Perhaps the people that were attacked thought they were fabrications, but it was enough to convince our government and our allies that war was justified. If we were attacking alliances for absolutely no reason, don't you think we would have lost support a long time ago? You say war was not necessary. But how else do you punish people for acting against you in this game? And unfair destruction is not true. The wars were justified, and the alliances disbanded of their own accord. If they wanted to stay together, they would have. Everyone says it's impossible to stand up in the face of overwhelming military force. Well I seem to remember these things called 'pre-terms'.

[Steelrat]

The history of the WotC is somewhat complex having so many facets, different alliances driven by different motivation.

That´s what i gathered about NPO´s motivation:

It started way back with the Moldavi incident when ES supported Ivan against Moo to be Emporer. After that the first rifts started and a lot of trust was lost. The orginally shared IRC channels on gov levels were abandoned and NPO started to think about a possible future conflict with polar and vice versa. We are still in the WUT era pre UJP, polar went on a treaty spree, BLEU was getting important then UJP happened.

I think here NPO for real started to think about polar/BLEU as possible future opponents, there are some famous quotes ES telling Moo that he will destroy NPO´s allies. Still this happened mostly on gov level and i don´t know how the rank and file member thought about the relationship between the two orders.

We are in the Q era and it can´t be denied that Q was somewhat the counterpart to BLEU although for me it seems possible NPO wanted to have a sort of fallback with 1V and polar/BLEU in case others were turning against them. So to say NPO tried to cover all bases, having options for any possible scenario for as long as possible.

Next things happened were polar loosing support and allies, i´m again not sure how much Dilber can claim credit for that or if he just used the circumstance polar alienated some of it´s allies or if it was an inevitable course of action anyway. Fact is polar´s relations with MCXA and Echelon were bad.

It seemed that NPO´s memberbase wasn´t really informed about what happened as NPO told me that a major problem to roll polar or get a greenlight getting polar rolled by others, was the memberbase who was still thinking about polar as brothers. I´m not sure whether that is true or used to stall to divert from a major inner dissent of important NPO members until it was solved.

The big question is still why NPO, if they planned to roll polar, stalled the attack at least on one occasion after MCXA and Echelon left BLEU and the OoO was nullified already. I think the reason was that there were still two fractions in NPO, one which wanted to roll polar or get them rolled, one against, both fighting to get the upper hand. Some of the pro polar fraction then went to VOX.

Grämlin´s and TOP´s motivation:

Grämlin´s motivation was quite simple, it started with the Green Drama between the Grämlins and GGA over the Senate seats were we thought polar played a major role in it and pushed in the background to get Grämlins inclusive TOP and Citadel rolled. I can´t say, if polar really played an active role or were more passive, waiting for a chance to get a shot on us. The result is the same, Grämlins thought of polar as a major threat that was amplified by the past actions of polar to roll other alliances with more or less weak CBs. Grämlins considered polar as an aggressive alliance.

TOP´s motivation from what i gathered was the same as Grämlins for the same reason and some different. It started with some stuff i can´t remember exactly, i think ES accussed TOP trying to get GOONS not to sign UJP. It cumulated in the FOK/GATO incident in the UJP war included a veiled threat from ES to roll TOP whenever possible. However TOP saw polar as a major threat and aggressive alliance too.

Grämlins and TOP started to prepare against any action from polar and later on actively prepared to roll polar whenever possible. The result in the end was the same whether NPO actively wanted to roll polar or not as Grämlins and TOP were already on the run against polar, NPO just had to wait at the sideline and give the greenlight only.

EDIT:

Feel free to correct me as i put that down out of my memory and i may have misssed some things.

Wiki entry about WotC:

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/War_of_the_Coalition

Edited August 27, 2009 by Steelrat

[Angrator]

Well, that's all a matter of opinion isn't it? Perhaps the people that were attacked thought they were fabrications, but it was enough to convince our government and our allies that war was justified. If we were attacking alliances for absolutely no reason, don't you think we would have lost support a long time ago? You say war was not necessary. But how else do you punish people for acting against you in this game? And unfair destruction is not true. The wars were justified, and the alliances disbanded of their own accord. If they wanted to stay together, they would have. Everyone says it's impossible to stand up in the face of overwhelming military force. Well I seem to remember these things called 'pre-terms'.

Wow... this is a serious post. You really have been living on a cave in Mars for the past three or so years.

[WorldConqueror]

Wow... this is a serious post. You really have been living on a cave in Mars for the past three or so years.

Got anything to back that up? Why can't you people say what you mean instead of dancing around whatever it is you're trying to say?

[Angrator]

Got anything to back that up? Why can't you people say what you mean instead of dancing around whatever it is you're trying to say?

Just look at the sheer number of alliances the NPO has killed. I think the shining example of the NPO at it's worst would have to be the attack on the GPA. If a tree hugging alliance with no harmful intent is not safe, then who is/was? I'm glad the NPO got curb stomped, and hopefully it will be a very long time before you'll be in that position again.

[Essenia]

TOP´s motivation from what i gathered was the same as Grämlins for the same reason and some different. It started with some stuff i can´t remember exactly, i think ES accussed TOP trying to get GOONS not to sign UJP. It cumulated in the FOK/GATO incident in the UJP war included a veiled threat from ES to roll TOP whenever possible. However TOP saw polar as a major threat and aggressive alliance too.

"veiled threat" is giving Sponge far too much credit; he said, in public, "I hate you now and unless you find a way to get off my bad side I will kill you." He may or not have been planning to do it in reality, but his words were very clear and unamibiguous.

[WorldConqueror]

Just look at the sheer number of alliances the NPO has killed. I think the shining example of the NPO at it's worst would have to be the attack on the GPA. If a tree hugging alliance with no harmful intent is not safe, then who is/was? I'm glad the NPO got curb stomped, and hopefully it will be a very long time before you'll be in that position again.

Again with the "NPO kills alliances!". Didn't I say in the post you quoted that you can't force anyone to disband? If you don't believe me, go talk to FAN and FARK. They survived, didn't they. And why don't you ask LSF members about GPAs harmful intent? plus, they did pretty well violating their own DoN. So nice you're happy. We may have been beaten. But we are coming back with a vengeance.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Again with the "NPO kills alliances!". Didn't I say in the post you quoted that you can't force anyone to disband? If you don't believe me, go talk to FAN and FARK. They survived, didn't they. And why don't you ask LSF members about GPAs harmful intent? plus, they did pretty well violating their own DoN. So nice you're happy. We may have been beaten. But we are coming back with a vengeance.

GPA was so aggressive you got one of your spies elected President and STILL couldnt come up with a genuine casus belli!

Man keep posting. You are the comic relief I look forward to after a long day at work.

[WorldConqueror]

GPA was so aggressive you got one of your spies elected President and STILL couldnt come up with a genuine casus belli!

Man keep posting. You are the comic relief I look forward to after a long day at work.

And idiots like you make me glad I'm an NPO member. Like that quote floating around somewhere says, it's like having a retard shield.

We got a spy elected president? Prove it.

[Angrator]

Again with the "NPO kills alliances!". Didn't I say in the post you quoted that you can't force anyone to disband? If you don't believe me, go talk to FAN and FARK. They survived, didn't they. And why don't you ask LSF members about GPAs harmful intent? plus, they did pretty well violating their own DoN. So nice you're happy. We may have been beaten. But we are coming back with a vengeance.

You may not be able to force alliances to disband, but you certainly tried your best. You prodded, you squeezed and generally crushed the living life out of everything outside of your alliance. Then you get rolled and suddenly it's nothing but complaints after complaints. I had to listen to the lamest pity party in the entire history of the cyberverse. I'm glad to see that you are coming back with a vengeance. It's helpful to remember what you were like in the past.

Oh. And don't hold your breath about becoming a member of frostbite. We don't accept traitors or snakes in the grass. If the NPO became a member of Frostbite, I'd be wondering what alliance in Frostbite was going to get rolled by you first. I wouldn`t touch the NPO with a 10 foot pole.

[HellAngel]

Again with the "NPO kills alliances!". Didn't I say in the post you quoted that you can't force anyone to disband? If you don't believe me, go talk to FAN and FARK. They survived, didn't they. And why don't you ask LSF members about GPAs harmful intent? plus, they did pretty well violating their own DoN. So nice you're happy. We may have been beaten. But we are coming back with a vengeance.

The problem is that you dont aknowledge any of the mistakes you made other than the strategical ones of getting into a position unequal to utter dominance.

Alliances may or may not have the integrity to stand through a beatdown and subsequent payment of reparations, but that doesnt say anything about the attributes of your alliance. It's also not your job to police other alliances upholding of their written documents (and thats also not what the war was about, it was about them acting like jackasses to NPO officials). You could have just walked away and let them rumble, they were not a threat to anyone.

My best guess is that history will repeat itself and NPO will run into a brick wall because they are unable to adopt to a new atmosphere. That would be a pity because your alliance has lots of other qualities.

[WorldConqueror]

You may not be able to force alliances to disband, but you certainly tried your best. You prodded, you squeezed and generally crushed the living life out of everything outside of your alliance. Then you get rolled and suddenly it's nothing but complaints after complaints. I had to listen to the lamest pity party in the entire history of the cyberverse. I'm glad to see that you are coming back with a vengeance. It's helpful to remember what you were like in the past.

Oh. And don't hold your breath about becoming a member of frostbite. We don't accept traitors or snakes in the grass. If the NPO became a member of Frostbite, I'd be wondering what alliance in Frostbite was going to get rolled by you first. I wouldn`t touch the NPO with a 10 foot pole.

Complaints? Pity party? Where? Give me an example. Calling out people for disregarding treaties? Yes. If that's complaining then gee CN is full of whiners, what with all the complaining directed at ODN, eh?

Where did I say anything about becoming a member of Frostbite? You like to put words in people's mouths, don't you? Or maybe you just don't understand the English language. My condolences.

EDIT: Also, I don't want your 10 foot pole anywhere near me or the NPO.

Edited August 27, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Valerius]

Well, that's all a matter of opinion isn't it? Perhaps the people that were attacked thought they were fabrications, but it was enough to convince our government and our allies that war was justified. If we were attacking alliances for absolutely no reason, don't you think we would have lost support a long time ago? You say war was not necessary. But how else do you punish people for acting against you in this game? And unfair destruction is not true. The wars were justified, and the alliances disbanded of their own accord. If they wanted to stay together, they would have. Everyone says it's impossible to stand up in the face of overwhelming military force. Well I seem to remember these things called 'pre-terms'.

The cassus bellum against GATO (GATO-1V), FAN, ONOS and GPA were utter fabrications, entirely transparent as the means of systematic elimination of potential 'opponents' that they were. The NADC-BLEU war is another example, but on Polaris' turf. The incidents which led to these wars were relatively minor, and diplomatic solutions would have always been sought by any normal alliance without such an aggresive agenda. The only reason they were successful was because of the sheer political influence weilded by Pacifica, and their role as the 'Head Purveyor' of a culture of fear throughout the world in general and the Upper Hegemony in particular.

Edited August 27, 2009 by President Kent

[Essenia]

The cassus bellum against GATO (GATO-1V), FAN, ONOS and GPA were utter fabrications, entirely transparent as the means of systematic elimination of potential 'opponents' that they were. The NADC-BLEU war is another example, but on Polaris' turf. The incidents which led to these wars were relatively minor, and diplomatic solutions would have always been sought by any normal alliance without such an aggresive agenda. The only reason they were successful was because of the sheer political influence weilded by Pacifica, and their role as the 'Head Purveyor' of a culture of fear throughout the world in general and the Upper Hegemony in particular.

The first CB was decent. FAN signed an agreement they shouldn't have with NAAC during GWIII, attacked an NPO protectorate and attacked GOONS nations who were pursuing EoGs that had come onto yellow. The second FAN war, however, had one of the most dishonorable and pathetic CB's in the histoy of the game; it revealed NPO to the whole world as alliance that would do anything, no matter how low, to destroy its 'enemies'.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Essenia