NPO History Discussion

[Rafael Nadal]

So you admit ONOS was in possession in our guides. Thankyou. If ONOS had informed us and let us deal with Da Choice then, ONOS may still be alive. Instead you sat on the information, and then Da Choice himself revealed it to us. Fairly easy to see why he was given amnesty in that case. You hid the secret, and he atoned by revealing it.

You are a damned fool.

You are the perfect model for following the Pacifican Way. I'm sure Dilber, Vlad, Bakunin, and the others who actually got NPO to the great heights it achieved, are all thrilled that you're so steadfastly holding the party line of the general membership. I have a feeling though, when they speak in private , and if they believe you truly believe all that you are saying, they are not excited about any prospect of you joining them in leadership.

Edit: I will not discuss this with you any further.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Rafael Nadal

[Vladimir]

I would appreciate it if you didn't try to read my mind, Rafael. It's a difficult thing to do, and it's clear that you're not up to the task.

[Rafael Nadal]

I would appreciate it if you didn't try to read my mind, Rafael. It's a difficult thing to do, and it's clear that you're not up to the task.

Doesn't really matter since what I was implying was something that would never come out in public until much after the fact, really only if somebody wrote a memoirs piece or something similar. I don't expect anybody that I'm referencing to corroborate this.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Rafael Nadal

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Don't get me wrong, I like playing the monster. But I also like to prove you moralists wrong.

One out of two aint bad?

One doesnt have to have some anti-pacifican virus or whatever to see that your alliance has drug it's own name through the mud very effectively. And I have yet to see anyone claim that everything you do is unjustified, or anything close. In fact the closest I can find is someone saying explicitly they do NOT think this is true.

[WorldConqueror]

This is from the amazing sanction race ten days before you declared on the GPA.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...st&p=374284

Why would the top alliance in the game be losing such a large score? Everyone knew what was coming, you had a slew of threads on the GPA and people started leaving.

Tell me oh great WorldConqueror, hero of the Pacific, if I am wrong, why was GPA losing so many members and such a large chunk of score? coincidental to the fact that you were publicly out for them? Read my link, the updater even stated the following:

This was on the 2/5, ten days before war was declared. You don't even know your own alliance's history.

EDIT: quote tags.

And if the war was all about taking the top spot, we already had it. Your reason is redundant. If GPA was losing members by the droves due to the threat of war, we could have kept the top spot easily, even if we weren't growing faster than them. Little war scare every month, GPA collectively &%$#@ pants, loses members. If we are so calculating and scheming, why wouldn't we do that instead of taking the PR hit of hitting a so-called neutral alliance? I don't know my alliance's history? I said we were on top before the war. I was right. Even a normal Pacifican grunt has more cause for pride than the creator of the fabled Abortion Disco.

[Jack Diorno]

And if the war was all about taking the top spot, we already had it. Your reason is redundant. If GPA was losing members by the droves due to the threat of war, we could have kept the top spot easily, even if we weren't growing faster than them. Little war scare every month, GPA collectively &%$#@ pants, loses members. If we are so calculating and scheming, why wouldn't we do that instead of taking the PR hit of hitting a so-called neutral alliance? I don't know my alliance's history? I said we were on top before the war. I was right. Even a normal Pacifican grunt has more cause for pride than the creator of the fabled Abortion Disco.

I'll refer you to your original argument to which I was responding to.

I'll assume you're refering to the second post with data from the 01/01/08. Right, so one day Pacifica grew more than GPA and so you base your entire argument around the fact that 'we would have overtaken them soon'. Surely you understand how these things fluctuate?! Even if this was the case, which I highly doubt, the point is completely and totally irrelevent! Read: ideological threat to Pacifican domination.

Karma War anyone?

Everything not a part of the 'Pacifican way' is seen by its purveyors as a threat to it.

We did overtake them. That isn't even refuted by GPA. We were #1 when the war started, and had been for a while. I don't remember the date of the war, but there are stats that prove I'm correct. If you really don't believe me I suppose I can go and dig them up. I addressed your 'ideological threat' point before.

Just because some of those allies turned around and stabbed us in the back does not mean there is anything wrong with our ideology. If anything it proves its superiority, and they had to ally themselves with us and adopt our ideology to some degree in order to both survive and orchestrate their attack. If they had have been caught they would have been killed.

Anyone acting against Pacifica is inviting an attack. We protect ourselves, forcefully if need be. We make no apologies for that.

Your going against your own argument now and agreeing with what I originally said, nice work. As for why the NPO would still attack GPA after you forced them out of the #1 spot if it meant taking a PR hit? Well, why would NPO hit OV if they new it meant their own demise?

I'm afraid in my case, Pacifican logic does not compute.

[WorldConqueror]

I'll refer you to your original argument to which I was responding to.

We did overtake them. That isn't even refuted by GPA. We were #1 when the war started, and had been for a while. I don't remember the date of the war, but there are stats that prove I'm correct. If you really don't believe me I suppose I can go and dig them up. I addressed your 'ideological threat' point before.

Just because some of those allies turned around and stabbed us in the back does not mean there is anything wrong with our ideology. If anything it proves its superiority, and they had to ally themselves with us and adopt our ideology to some degree in order to both survive and orchestrate their attack. If they had have been caught they would have been killed.

Anyone acting against Pacifica is inviting an attack. We protect ourselves, forcefully if need be. We make no apologies for that.

Your going against your own argument now and agreeing with what I originally said, nice work. As for why the NPO would still attack GPA after you forced them out of the #1 spot if it meant taking a PR hit? Well, why would NPO hit OV if they new it meant their own demise?

I'm afraid in my case, Pacifican logic does not compute.

Those two posts are not contradictory.

[Jack Diorno]

Those two posts are not contradictory.

Yes. They are.

First you were stating that the NPO naturally outgrew the GPA, with no bearing at all to the war. As such:

Like I said, we had already passed GPA. We were growing faster than them. Doesn't that make your point moot?

I proved you wrong on that point, NPO only outgrew the GPA because the GPA members were fleeing when the war was approaching, I proved that with my links to the sanction race thread as such: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...st&p=374284

So now you are agreeing with me that the NPO outgrew GPA because of the war. Without the war you would of been in #2 place for a long time.

Now, I don't care why you went to war, I never said anything about that, so why are you bringing it up when its completely irrelevant to my point?

All I was doing was correcting your mistake in events that transpired, you show complete ignorance to the events that happened during the course of your alliance's history, and it is so painful to watch you spew out dribble, that I can only assume Vladimir himself posted on the NPO forums, which is wrong as I showed you. The worst part of this is, you aren't even the biggest headache that Pacifica has ever spawned.

EDIT: wrahhh

Edited August 27, 2009 by Jack Diorno

[WorldConqueror]

Yes. They are.

First you were stating that the NPO naturally outgrew the GPA, with no bearing at all to the war. As such:

I proved you wrong on that point, NPO only outgrew the GPA because the GPA members were fleeing when the war was approaching, I proved that with my links to the sanction race thread as such: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...st&p=374284

So now you are agreeing with me that the NPO outgrew GPA because of the war. Without the war you would of been in #2 place for a long time.

Now, I don't care why you went to war, I never said anything about that, so why are you bringing it up when its completely irrelevant to my point?

All I was doing was correcting your mistake in events that transpired, you show complete ignorance to the events that happened during the course of your alliance's history, and it is so painful to watch you spew out dribble, that I can only assume Vladimir himself posted on the NPO forums, which is wrong as I showed you. The worst part of this is, you aren't even the biggest headache that Pacifica has ever spawned.

EDIT: wrahhh

Way to miss the point. To quote myself:

And if the war was all about taking the top spot, we already had it. Your reason is redundant. If GPA was losing members by the droves due to the threat of war, we could have kept the top spot easily, even if we weren't growing faster than them. Little war scare every month, GPA collectively &%$#@ pants, loses members. If we are so calculating and scheming, why wouldn't we do that instead of taking the PR hit of hitting a so-called neutral alliance?

I helpfully bolded the relevant parts.

[Vladimir]

Three points.

First.

We were going to overtake GPA very soon regardless. This was discussed in Unspeakable Evil's thread and he put together this nice graph for us.

As you can see, after tech was downgraded we were growing at a much faster pace consistently over a period of nearly three months. If all trends had continued it was a matter of weeks at most.

Second.

The GPA had massive internal problems at the time. This was an ostensibly neutral alliance whose leader had just attempted to extort thousands of tech from the Libertarian Socialist Front for absurd reasons, along with many other horrific errors of judgement, all compounded by an internal structure conductive only to infighting and conflict. While the pressure being put on them by the the world (far from just the NPO) may have emphasised the problems that were there, it was nevertheless these problems that caused the drop in strength prior to the war (a war that was not on the cards at the time -- it was not inevitable, was no more likely then than it was a week prior, and did not alone cause the drop).

Third.

GPA was an "ideological threat" to us? We were scared that all our enemies would suddenly turn neutral? Oh no! Run for the hills! We never cared about alliances existing "outside our ideological sphere", so long as they didn't start to threaten our security. ODN has been doing it since GW3, and we couldn't care less. On this point I humbly request that you get a grip.

[Petrovich4]

So you admit ONOS was in possession in our guides. Thankyou.

That was in my post. Your welcome.

If ONOS had informed us and let us deal with Da Choice then, ONOS may still be alive. Instead you sat on the information, and then Da Choice himself revealed it to us. Fairly easy to see why he was given amnesty in that case. You hid the secret, and he atoned by revealing it.

We didn't hide anything. DC copied and pasted NPO guides while in NPO. He then eventually joined ONOS and posted those guides in early Dec '06. They were removed immediately because:

1. We knew the consequences if we used them

2. We had better guides

3. Our alliance was structured differently then NPO

Da Choice knew those guides were removed. Heck, the Top 3 forgot about those guides until they were brought up. When I was first confronted by Bak and TR, I had no idea what guides they were talking about. I had to go searching through pages and pages of the 'Recycling Bin' area to find that thread.

Also, you fail to connect the dots in my post.

I'm not complaining or whining about ONOS getting killed. NPO played the game better then ONOS did. NPOs mistake was letting ONOS as an alliance suffocate and die, this enabling the 'Dandelion Effect'. ONOS' greatest triumph was building the positive characteristics and qualities of individuals that would eventually come to lead and govern several alliances with the utmost loyalty to those alliances.

Let ONOS RIP.

[WorldConqueror]

I'm perfectly happy with letting ONOS RIP. I couldn't care less about ONOS. They spied, they died, end of story.

[Jack Diorno]

Way to miss the point. To quote myself:

I helpfully bolded the relevant parts.

I am 100% sure you are not seriously this stupid.

I don't care about why you went to war, it was never my argument, I never even said anything about why you went to war. Every post I make to respond to you, you come up with something even more irrelevant. I can't even bring myself to return to this thread, your just..

[WorldConqueror]

I am 100% sure you are not seriously this stupid.

I don't care about why you went to war, it was never my argument, I never even said anything about why you went to war. Every post I make to respond to you, you come up with something even more irrelevant. I can't even bring myself to return to this thread, your just..

It's not irrelevant just because you miss my point. My point was that you are acting like I was conceding your point, which I wasn't. Thus why I pointed out the multiple 'ifs' in my post. I'm 50% sure you are not seriously this stupid.

EDIT: Also hence why I said those posts aren't contradictory. You can try and paint it as such all you like, but it's not what I said.

Edited August 27, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[Haflinger]

This is from the amazing sanction race ten days before you declared on the GPA.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...st&p=374284

Why would the top alliance in the game be losing such a large score?

Well, here's one theory. From someone who didn't exactly get along with Pacifica, and who was in a position to know.

Basically GPA lately has given you a giant finger. Rather than man up, admit it, and fix the issues GPA just flops around like the unstable headless wonder they are. I don't blame you for being worried about them. They just completely ignored all of thier governing documents and laws to boot me illegally. Who knows what else they are going to do?

GPA has become a reckless crazy person. I'm sorry GPA ... truth hurts but that's what you have become. Many are going to say I am just bitter and really it doesn't matter. It's the truth. I certainly had a hand in creating that truth but unfortunately the seeds go much, much deeper.

I wish you all the best of luck. I'm out!

Unstable headless wonders are known to lose members on occasion. GPA, to their credit, has recovered from that rather bleak part of their history, but back then they weren't the GPA we know now.

[Jack Diorno]

It's not irrelevant just because you miss my point. My point was that you are acting like I was conceding your point, which I wasn't. Thus why I pointed out the multiple 'ifs' in my post. I'm 50% sure you are not seriously this stupid.

EDIT: Also hence why I said those posts aren't contradictory. You can try and paint it as such all you like, but it's not what I said.

I apologize for labeling you as stupid WorldConqueror,

I am 100% sure you are not seriously this stupid.

Your doing your alliance a hard task in this thread that not many other Pacificans seem cable of pursuing. I lose my cool sometimes, sorry for that remark.

[WorldConqueror]

I apologize for labeling you as stupid WorldConqueror,

Your doing your alliance a hard task in this thread that not many other Pacificans seem cable of pursuing. I lose my cool sometimes, sorry for that remark.

That's ok, I started it on that track with my mighty Jack Diorno crack, which was a result of the tone of the thread, not anything against you personally. So I apologize as well.

[TehChron]

You are a damned fool.

You are the perfect model for following the Pacifican Way. I'm sure Dilber, Vlad, Bakunin, and the others who actually got NPO to the great heights it achieved, are all thrilled that you're so steadfastly holding the party line of the general membership. I have a feeling though, when they speak in private , and if they believe you truly believe all that you are saying, they are not excited about any prospect of you joining them in leadership.

Edit: I will not discuss this with you any further.

Actually, they didnt get it there themselves, they mostly tried to hold up the combined founders success on their own after the personality clashes caused many to leave. Pump, Sponge, Ivan, Doitzel...I could go on.

[WorldConqueror]

Actually, they didnt get it there themselves, they mostly tried to hold up the combined founders success on their own after the personality clashes caused many to leave. Pump, Sponge, Ivan, Doitzel...I could go on.

Come on Chron. You know as well as I do that Doitzel's name should not be on that list.

[Haflinger]

Dilber, Vlad, Bakunin, and the others who actually got NPO to the great heights it achieved

Actually, they didnt get it there themselves, they mostly tried to hold up the combined founders success on their own after the personality clashes caused many to leave. Pump, Sponge, Ivan, Doitzel...I could go on.

Vlad was a founder, Sponge and Doitzel weren't. Of course neither were Dilber or Bakunin.

[WorldConqueror]

Thats true, but all those listed were there right from the early days, whereas Doitzel wasn't. He was in IRON first, and didn't join the Order til after the GPW, sometime in october. Hardly a formative influence. So while he may have contributed to Pacifica, he can't be counted amongst those other names.

EDIT: Got clarification.

Edited August 27, 2009 by WorldConqueror

[KingEd]

OOC

It seems the only thing worth talking about now a days is Pacifica and its history; whether they did wrong and when, and whether Karma gave a good enough punishment to justify their "wrong doings". Most criticize Pacifica, but deep down you all love them for giving this game life over the past 3 years and you all hope Pacifica returns to a high standing as soon as possible to cause more CN drama since the new Karma ideals will surely seek resolution to conflict via diplomatic channels and not war.

Pacifica had its way. Yea they committed wrongs, but didn't we all at one point or another....

[Rafael Nadal]

Actually, they didnt get it there themselves, they mostly tried to hold up the combined founders success on their own after the personality clashes caused many to leave. Pump, Sponge, Ivan, Doitzel...I could go on.

I didn't choose those names for any real reason other than they were still around, more recent, etc and thus more off the top of my head. I know there were several others, and even people before them.

In fact, NPO's leadership is probably all just remaining multis of Pump anyways. >_>

[WorldConqueror]

Haven't you heard? We are all multis.

[RandomInterrupt]

Do you think we could have this thread re-named to "NPO Revisionist History?" It would be more accurate. Right now it's like a parody of history and nearly everyone is spewing complete crap. Are you guys just making this up as you go along?

I would recommend that everyone actually taking this seriously to leave the thread and go find the last dozen times these same things were discussed. Or even better yet, ask someone who was actually present for these events and ask them instead of listening to the opinions of people who know only what they were told.