NPO History Discussion

[WorldConqueror]

And where would the fun be in that?

[Stonewall Jaxon]

Do you think we could have this thread re-named to "NPO Revisionist History?" It would be more accurate. Right now it's like a parody of history and nearly everyone is spewing complete crap. Are you guys just making this up as you go along?

I would recommend that everyone actually taking this seriously to leave the thread and go find the last dozen times these same things were discussed. Or even better yet, ask someone who was actually present for these events and ask them instead of listening to the opinions of people who know only what they were told.

Way to randomly interrupt the debate

[Heft]

1. The NPO Frostbite sig thing got old months ago.

2. Debating every war NPO has launched and/or been involved in ever is fruitless and absurd, whatever "side" you're on.

3. There's a lot of absurd and hyperbolized "criticisms" of the NPO, but the apparent inability to understand the legitimate mistakes the NPO has made over time and why certain people aren't there anymore only feeds those people.

[Haflinger]

3. There's a lot of absurd and hyperbolized "criticisms" of the NPO, but the apparent inability to understand the legitimate mistakes the NPO has made over time and why certain people aren't there anymore only feeds those people.

Actually, these people tend to get really upset primarily when people accept that the NPO has made mistakes, because we never accept the idea that the NPO has to take responsibility for every bad thing ever done.

[WorldConqueror]

1. The NPO Frostbite sig thing got old months ago.

2. Debating every war NPO has launched and/or been involved in ever is fruitless and absurd, whatever "side" you're on.

3. There's a lot of absurd and hyperbolized "criticisms" of the NPO, but the apparent inability to understand the legitimate mistakes the NPO has made over time and why certain people aren't there anymore only feeds those people.

1. I hadn't seen it til recently, so bear with me while I enjoy it.

2. True enough, but I can't do much else. I'm under terms.

3. I agree with what Haf said, but I'd also add that while I do understand them, I'm not going to publicly agree with them.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

This is great stuff.

ONOS has an NPO guide, deleted but still technically recoverable by an admin, and for this:

I'm perfectly happy with letting ONOS RIP. I couldn't care less about ONOS. They spied, they died, end of story.

The Libertarian Socialist Federation had full GPA guides posted openly on their board for use, and when approached about it essentially said 'f off, we got em and we're keeping them.' This resulted in some escalation and threats being made, before NPO suddenly decides to defend this small alliance they didnt have any ties with, and they get to do just that. (A little later the GPA cabinet minister who pushed for the escalations joins NPO just in time to attack us for his own actions as well, just coincidentally I'm sure.) And for this:

This was an ostensibly neutral alliance whose leader had just attempted to extort thousands of tech from the Libertarian Socialist Front for absurd reasons,

The spin cycle has completely overbalanced and the pacifican mind is careening off in a reality all its own.

Edited August 27, 2009 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Haflinger]

The Libertarian Socialist Federation had full GPA guides posted openly on their board for use, and when approached about it essentially said 'f off, we got em and we're keeping them.' This resulted in some escalation and threats being made, before NPO suddenly decides to defend this small alliance they didnt have any ties with, and they get to do just that. (A little later the GPA cabinet minister who pushed for the escalations joins NPO just in time to attack us for his own actions as well, just coincidentally I'm sure.)

You know perfectly well that's not what happened. (Or do you? I wonder. You should know anyway.)

First of all, the NPO didn't defend the LSF. They defended their own interests, which really had nothing to do with the LSF, who was after all at war with their ally GDA at the time. The LSF ultimatum was just a symptom of the GPA's decline. If the NPO had been fighting the war to defend the LSF, they would have attacked at the time, and believe me they would have had plenty of support to do so. However instead of doing that, their members posted in support of GPA in the ultimatum thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=9320

Remember that one? Where GPA demanded 300M from a microalliance in ZI, in eternal war with a sanction race alliance?

Probably the only member of the coalition that attacked GPA that cared about the LSF situation was NATO. I say "probably" because I know NPO and Valhalla didn't (except that they supported NATO, their ally, in the LSF-GPA incident), but the others maybe did; maybe FOK, maybe some of the others.

And lastly... You do remember that the LSF forums were hacked, and that the GPA guides posted there were posted by the hackers, right?

Edited August 27, 2009 by Haflinger

[John Michaels]

And lastly... You do remember that the LSF forums were hacked, and that the GPA guides posted there were posted by the hackers, right?

You realize the link you posted states the guides had been on their forums since October, correct?

[Haflinger]

You realize the link you posted states the guides had been on their forums since October, correct?

Yes, and coincidentally the GPA found out they were there right after the forums were hacked.

Yeah, I didn't believe it at the time either.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

You know perfectly well that's not what happened. (Or do you? I wonder. You should know anyway.)

I should. I know what was posted about it on the GPA.gov boards. I know who pushed hardest for an aggressive stance on it and kept feeding really bad ideas on it in the cabinet, when they left the GPA, and where they went at that point, and I'll tell you that particular bit of information is certainly interesting. In short, I know what the gpa.gov knew at the time.

First of all, the NPO didn't defend the LSF. They defended their own interests, which really had nothing to do with the LSF, who was after all at war with their ally GDA at the time.

Great, however you want it. We threatened LSF but the moment NPO indicated we shoudnt we backed off in such a hurry we probably gave someone whiplash, that was my point.

[The LSF ultimatum was just a symptom of the GPA's decline. If the NPO had been fighting the war to defend the LSF, they would have attacked at the time, and believe me they would have had plenty of support to do so. However instead of doing that, their members posted in support of GPA in the ultimatum thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=9320

Remember that one? Where GPA demanded 300M from a microalliance in ZI, in eternal war with a sanction race alliance?

Yes, and I remember that this was because the government had been trying to get ahold of their government for some time. After initial contact was made and the issue broached, they just buggered off and in essence quit answering their phone calls. I also know that the demands were meant to be cartoony crazy, because he had learned from the NPO that you always demand a lot more than you really want.

The intention of the entire exercise was simply to get them to remove our guides from their board and maybe apologise. Everyone knew we'd never get any reps out of them, we were hoping to get some kind of leverage is all.

And lastly... You do remember that the LSF forums were hacked, and that the GPA guides posted there were posted by the hackers, right?

No, that is not to the best of my knowledge true.

The excuse that hackers had taken over their board and there was no one left in the actual alliance who had control of the board was given, later on AFTER a splash was made to get them to start answering their phone calls, IIRC.

Also... this is the LSF that we are talking about here. They had no .gov exactly, which made them impossible to deal with, as you should probably realise yourself I would think. This is the reason I argued for simply ignoring them at the time. And I certainly agree that the GPA disintegrated over that period of time, it "flopped around headlessly" because it kept chopping off it's own head in desperate attempts to appease. Which is exactly why there is no way Pacifica could have possibly deluded herself into thinking we were some kind of threat, or that we had ever deliberately provoked her in any way.

[Valerius]

WorldConqueror: What part of this do you not understand? This is the last time I am gong to say it, hopefully it will sink in.

GUARD as well as GATO, FAN and yes, GPA, posed threats to the Pacifican goal of hegemony and domination. You cannot declare a Hegemony when your oldest rival (GATO) is still sanctioned, or when a bloc created to purposely ignore the MDP Web can prosper. Pacifican domination required its tenticles of fear and influence to reach to the very corners of the Cyberverse, and eventually, after the series of immoral and unfair curbstomps, they did. If you still do not understand, look up a definition of the word 'hegemony'. Or better yet, look your leaders in the eye and ask them yourselves.

You are the product of some of the greatest spin ever told to an alliance membership. Unfortunately, you possess enough intelligence to purvey this spin, but not enough to realize it for what it is. *Sigh.

[Haflinger]

Great, however you want it. We threatened LSF but the moment NPO indicated we shoudnt we backed off in such a hurry we probably gave someone whiplash, that was my point.

Heh.

NPO was supporting their allies in NATO when that happened.

Yes, and I remember that this was because the government had been trying to get ahold of their government for some time. After initial contact was made and the issue broached, they just buggered off and in essence quit answering their phone calls. I also know that the demands were meant to be cartoony crazy, because he had learned from the NPO that you always demand a lot more than you really want.

The intention of the entire exercise was simply to get them to remove our guides from their board and maybe apologise. Everyone knew we'd never get any reps out of them, we were hoping to get some kind of leverage is all.

If this is true, he hadn't learned anything from NPO. This is more out of Electron Sponge's book, to be honest.

Imagine if, in the middle of the Karma War, TDO, GPA or WTF, or frankly any large uninvolved alliance, had come along and demanded 300 million and 10K technology from Avalon for some perceived slight. That's what we're talking about here. They would not have been supported.

No, that is not to the best of my knowledge true.

The excuse that hackers had taken over their board and there was no one left in the actual alliance who had control of the board was given, later on AFTER a splash was made to get them to start answering their phone calls, IIRC.

Also... this is the LSF that we are talking about here. They had no .gov exactly, which made them impossible to deal with, as you should probably realise yourself I would think. This is the reason I argued for simply ignoring them at the time. And I certainly agree that the GPA disintegrated over that period of time, it "flopped around headlessly" because it kept chopping off it's own head in desperate attempts to appease. Which is exactly why there is no way Pacifica could have possibly deluded herself into thinking we were some kind of threat, or that we had ever deliberately provoked her in any way.

This was the LSF in the middle of an eternal war situation which NATO was desperately trying to get them out of, due to historical ties named the Pansy. GPA's intervention just added to the list of parties that was giving him headaches.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

GUARD as well as GATO, FAN and yes, GPA, posed threats to the Pacifican goal of hegemony and domination.

I know you believe this but I would really appreciate you leaving out the agency as you have no idea what you are talking about. The GPA was not outside of the Pacifican system until Pacifica expelled her. Sure, some in GPA were former and future enemies rebuilding. The Agency neutered a percentage along the way, and they would have rebuilt somewhere else had it not been there. Another faction practically worshipped Pacifica, while the third and by far largest group were just plain pacifists. Back before we became a target this was a running joke between some of us. The GPA was really the NPOs unique and secret ally, the only one that would never turn against them, and the only one that couldnt fight.

[Valerius]

I know you believe this but I would really appreciate you leaving out the agency as you have no idea what you are talking about. The GPA was not outside of the Pacifican system until Pacifica expelled her. Sure, some in GPA were former and future enemies rebuilding. The Agency neutered a percentage along the way, and they would have rebuilt somewhere else had it not been there. Another faction practically worshipped Pacifica, while the third and by far largest group were just plain pacifists. Back before we became a target this was a running joke between some of us. The GPA was really the NPOs unique and secret ally, the only one that would never turn against them, and the only one that couldnt fight.

But that is all irrelevant. It is the same with GUARD. GUARD had no I'll will towards the NPO whatsoever. It is all irrelevant, though, because if you weren't with Pacifica then you were quite obviously a threat to the establishment of the Hegemony. And GPA being in the top spot, which I'm sure Pacifica thought she deserved, made its destruction all the more tasteful to the NPO.

[Haflinger]

But that is all irrelevant. It is the same with GUARD. GUARD had no I'll will towards the NPO whatsoever. It is all irrelevant, though, because if you weren't with Pacifica then you were quite obviously a threat to the establishment of the Hegemony. And GPA being in the top spot, which I'm sure Pacifica thought she deserved, made its destruction all the more tasteful to the NPO.

See, the problem here is that you think all these alliances were attacked because NPO thought they were a threat to their hegemony.

Quite simply, this isn't the case, and until you stop believing that, we'll be going around in circles.

[Valerius]

See, the problem here is that you think all these alliances were attacked because NPO thought they were a threat to their hegemony.

Quite simply, this isn't the case, and until you stop believing that, we'll be going around in circles.

No, we'll be going around in circles until you provide me with evidence as to why that is not the case.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

No, we'll be going around in circles until you provide me with evidence as to why that is not the case.

He's right. They werent attacked because they were a threat. They were attacked simply because it was "doable" and Pacifica + favoured allies were bored and felt like taking some tech.

Some alliances you expect that from. But Pacifica always made a great show of being honourable, of keeping her word. That show was a large part of her spectacular comeback from humiliating defeat in GWI to unquestioned global supremacy in GWIII. Pacifica is not supposed to declare for lulz. This is the kind of behaviour that wound up alienating so many potential or formal allies that she finds herself where she is today.

Also, to Halflinger, I finally figured out what you were talking about here:

[The LSF ultimatum was just a symptom of the GPA's decline. If the NPO had been fighting the war to defend the LSF, they would have attacked at the time, and believe me they would have had plenty of support to do so. However instead of doing that, their members posted in support of GPA in the ultimatum thread: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=9320

Sorry, I was dog tired half asleep and in pain last night. I should have realised you were looking at Bobby Fischer. This is just one more of these voluminous circumstantial bits. He also left and joined Pacifica shortly after embarrasing us and shortly before attacking us. Although best I remember he wasnt top .gov and wasnt one of the ones I mentioned earlier, IIRC he was actually an assistant MoFA at the time. He was GPA when he posted that.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Haflinger]

No, we'll be going around in circles until you provide me with evidence as to why that is not the case.

As I've said before: You cannot prove a negative.

I'd like you to provide evidence that you are not planning to destroy FAN as we speak.

[Valerius]

He's right. They werent attacked because they were a threat. They were attacked simply because it was doable and Pacifica + favoured allies were bored and felt like taking some tech.

That too. But I'm sure Pacifica's goal was always total domination. Which includes the elimination of those who could exist without such domination; GUARD and GPA. I don't think Pacifica's motives can be simplified down to a tech raid, she had an agenda, and she stuck to it always.

[Valerius]

As I've said before: You cannot prove a negative.

I'd like you to provide evidence that you are not planning to destroy FAN as we speak.

You cannot deny an argument without addressing any of its points, regardless of positive/negativity. If that was the case these forums would be a much duller place.

I am not seeking to destroy FAN because I have always liked them, make the journey to Esper just for them, and have no political motivation to. NPO had plenty; for all the disussed targets. And I'm not going to state them for the twentieth time.

[Haflinger]

You cannot deny an argument without addressing any of its points, regardless of positive/negativity. If that was the case these forums would be a much duller place.

I am not seeking to destroy FAN because I have always liked them, make the journey to Esper just for them, and have no political motivation to. NPO had plenty; for all the disussed targets. And I'm not going to state them for the twentieth time.

We were discussing GPA, incidentally.

I actually provided reasons why two of the alliances who attacked GPA attacked them. Both just happened to be NPO MADP partners. You denied those reasons out of hand, preferring instead to substitute "NPO made them do it because they thought GPA was a threat!"

There's just no basis for that claim whatsoever.

See, I know why NATO wanted to attack GPA, from direct contact with NATO government at the time. I had less contact with Valhalla at the time (that was before noWedge's ejection and the subsequent detente in Purple) but man, read the announcement - Wedgie doesn't beat around the bush and Val was obsessed with Swampy at the time.

You, on the other hand, simply claim that it was obvious that NPO wanted GPA destroyed, and that was the sole reason for the war. At no point have you addressed the fact that there were other NPO allies who wanted GPA brought down for their own reasons.

[Valerius]

We were discussing GPA, incidentally.

I actually provided reasons why two of the alliances who attacked GPA attacked them. Both just happened to be NPO MADP partners. You denied those reasons out of hand, preferring instead to substitute "NPO made them do it because they thought GPA was a threat!"

There's just no basis for that claim whatsoever.

See, I know why NATO wanted to attack GPA, from direct contact with NATO government at the time. I had less contact with Valhalla at the time (that was before noWedge's ejection and the subsequent detente in Purple) but man, read the announcement - Wedgie doesn't beat around the bush and Val was obsessed with Swampy at the time.

You, on the other hand, simply claim that it was obvious that NPO wanted GPA destroyed, and that was the sole reason for the war. At no point have you addressed the fact that there were other NPO allies who wanted GPA brought down for their own reasons.

In a thread for the discussion of NPO History, I was refering to the NPO's motives. I never once mentioned the motives of other alliances; directly or in rebuttal. I don't know where you got the "NPO made them do it because they thought GPA was a threat!" thing from, I never made nor implied reference to the NPO's allies. Though suppose it should nonetheless be factored in.

[Haflinger]

In a thread for the discussion of NPO History, I was refering to the NPO's motives. I never once mentioned the motives of other alliances; directly or in rebuttal. I don't know where you got the "NPO made them do it because they thought GPA was a threat!" thing from, I never made nor implied reference to the NPO's allies. Though suppose it should nonetheless be factored in.

Well, I kindof did make reference to the NPO's allies. You ignored that.

If you haven't been following my posts, I have frequently made the argument that NPO has made mistakes while acting in support of its allies, helping them take actions it would not have taken of its own volition. I don't think the GPA war was one of those times (as I've mentioned, I think the attack itself was justified, although the reparations are something of a different story); but I do also think that they were not the leaders of that attack.

[Valerius]

Well, I kindof did make reference to the NPO's allies. You ignored that.

If you haven't been following my posts, I have frequently made the argument that NPO has made mistakes while acting in support of its allies, helping them take actions it would not have taken of its own volition. I don't think the GPA war was one of those times (as I've mentioned, I think the attack itself was justified, although the reparations are something of a different story); but I do also think that they were not the leaders of that attack.

If you look at one of my first posts in this thread, around page 19, I stated that all the cassus bellum for curbstomps were "a series of all too convenient means to a very satisfying end [for Pacifica]. That is conviction enough". I think that still applies.

Edited August 28, 2009 by President Kent

[Haflinger]

If you look at one of my first posts in this thread, around page 19, I states that all the cassus bellum for curbstomps were "a series of all too convenient means to a very satisfying end [for Pacifica]. That is conviction enough". I think that still applies.

See, the thing about this statement is that it's completely unsupported by facts.