avernite

I think people may at the same time over- and underestimate the impact of the coup. ES and Ivan were strong personalities, and they did clash loudly and forcefully in WUT times. However, they also were strong powerplayers. If Ivan's coup succeeds, the immediate result is likely a shattering of the WUT with NPO and NpO on one side rather than a half-hearted NPO on NpO's side. GOONS was a devil they knew less than they knew eachother, and better the devil you know. The question is, could it have shifted anyone out or away in the resulting war? I think not. NPO's name held sway, but the aftermath of Moo leaving would not have been perfect. I suspect TOP/Citadel would still tend towards neutrality, now more confused than caught in a situation of wanting to support both and neither side, and the rest of WUT would still go to their eventual sides, most likely. The war probably ends similarly, and so, once more, we are in a situation where Citadel was not on the NpO side in the UjW. This will lead to powerplaying by both sides as it initiates mistrust, and here the question becomes truly complicated. Ivan could see NpO as an actual rival, but Citadel was still a WotC and Karma war away from sufficient power to rival NPO. He might still choose a Continuum-like construction, but with Ivan in the lead would Grämlins ever accept? If not, TOP would likely not join... and so there would be a cold war between NpO and the Citadel with NPO more likely than historical to be against TOP/Grämlins, but there would not be the same push to bring an actual conflict. Citadel was still a block more deadly than it was political, and if Continuum does not form, that is likely to remain. And Citadel would not have the confidence to launch its own offensive without Continuum backing. I suspect Citadel would eventually fall apart while the first significant war after the UjW would be a destruction of what were and became C&G/SF. After that, with Citadel disbanded, there might be a realignment between the Orange alliances (TOP/IRON primarily, with probably ODN or FOK support) becoming the new Order opposition. Which would be not so epic, and so likely it would extend the dominance of NPpO until at some point they do get into conflict with eachother.

Of the alliances I fought, ODN definately was a positive surprise; of course having met Merlin and Arsenal in combat I may have hit more activity than expected, but for a so-long derided alliance they did very well. MK was an expected success story. From a distance, VE seems to be doing quite well too. As to our side, OG/Zenith taking on Grämlins with some serious success surprised me a bit, definately good going there. TPF showed some admirable skill at coming back from the dead by performing admirably in this war. Purple in general gave a pretty good fight in what was even announced as a curbstomp. The rest of our allies are also doing well, and cooperation has been good on our direct fronts. But, in the end, the sheer volume of damage that we, TOP, have caused, is somewhat of a surprise. Certainly people had calculated how much damage we could do (and truth be told, could take), but to see it in action... consider me pleasantly surprised.

Well, okay. You do what you think you have to do. I hope not to meet you on the battlefield, but if so may it be an honourable fight. Also, that's 21.

Happy birthday TSO! May your next year be in quieter times... unless you like this, in which case, may it be as eventfull as your first year

Happy third birthday, Old Guard. May you know many victories in this new year

You might try to explain what you mean. Most of the posts seem to acknowledge that the scenario as it is unfolding would happen.

[quote name='pigsticker' date='20 February 2010 - 05:01 AM' timestamp='1266638463' post='2192898'] It could be an option instead of reps. Seeing that he seemed to be acting on his own personal agenda (maybe), his actions to the ouside world will always be tainted by the suspicion. It does not have to be a total ban, but more along the highest level of the government and maybe the FA side of things. He could still contribute to his alliance internally. After all C&G claims to want to remove TOP as a threat to them, so what better way than for C&G to remove this threat by allowing more level-headed(i.e. less emotional persons to lead TOP. Some people might be offended as it might constitute an interference in the direct governance of their alliance, but it's just an idea that might be explored. [/quote] It would require an amendment of our Charter, not to mention being plain unacceptable. So, no.

Considering that both Archon (in public) and Arsenal (in private) have admitted C&G has not achieved victory anymore than we have, it stands to reason that white peace is the most logical solution. Given that said offer is rejected, we are looking into our options; exact numbers are no more forthcoming from us than they are from the other side. At least we actually have an offer on the table.

Congratulations especially to FCC for achieving peace, thank you... and good luck with the rebuilding To STA: see you on the battlefield. And for Silence, well, I don't really have much to say. Congrats for this peace

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' date='14 February 2010 - 10:10 PM' timestamp='1266181812' post='2181226'] The majority of TOP also elected Crymson and will no doubt do so again if he chooses to run. Enough said. [/quote] You are right in some sense... the majority of TOP elected the government that let you in. @ES: I don't know... how would we be buried if we refuse to stay dead? Unless you plan to dance on empty graves... you are one of the people, after all, who rightly argued \m/ could have chosen not to perish in the UjW.

[quote name='eyriq' date='14 February 2010 - 04:48 AM' timestamp='1266119317' post='2180174'] Is it typical for a 2 vs 1 war to have roughly even damage counts? [/quote] Noone knows, as the 2 vs 1 usually ends pretty quick after it's apparent that it is like that. Usually by the smaller side running like hell. The only remotely similar situation (one side with a clear disadvantage but holding together for full out war) is GW1, before nuke delays, aircraft, navies, wonders etcetera.

[quote name='Scorbolt' date='12 February 2010 - 06:23 AM' timestamp='1265952226' post='2176796'] Legion's MoFA in discussions with Sparta led them to believe he was acting under order from Hubb and led them to believe white peace was being accepted. This same MoFA has said in the other topic that a veto vote had begun before this was posted while in this topic several Legionnaires have stated the opposite that the veto vote began after the posting of this topic. Now, sure Sparta could have misinterpreted what was intended / what happened but Imperial has already begun lying to cover himself. I expect that he made the mistake not Sparta. [/quote] Perhaps you misunderstood, and Legion only accepted white peace as compared to having one term for peace, namely their withdrawal from the war?

[quote name='Drostan' date='11 February 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1265903673' post='2174813'] TOP declared war, maybe that war would have happened or maybe not, but it's happening now. TOP delcared this war because they felt CnG would displace them from their lofty position. They rolled the dice, and now we are waiting to see how it turns out. They are still the aggressors here, and CnG doesn't owe them anything. [/quote] That part, however, is not true; TOP did not declare war because we feared we would be displaced from our 'lofty position' (if anything, being nr 1 is a burden). TOP declared war because it was our belief that this war was going to happen anyway due to various moves since at least Athens' techraid on KoN, so we might as well choose the time and place of the fighting. That this belief was mistaken, or that we went about this in the wrong way, does not change the initial motivation.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' date='11 February 2010 - 09:35 AM' timestamp='1265877347' post='2174341'] After running back to read TOP's DoW on MK I have no idea who you could argue it was due to treaties. On a different note, maybe the real lesson is not to interfer in something thats not your business, HINT: FoA [/quote] Indeed, \m/ suffered quite a bit for interfering with FoA.

[quote name='Chickenzilla' date='10 February 2010 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1265832360' post='2173023'] Answer this ^ with this v All in all a decent government now, but it should read like this- [b][u]The 23rd Paradox Council[/u][/b] Grandmaster: Oyababy Grand Hospitaller: Oyababy Grand Chancellor: Oyababy [u][b]The 31st Session of the Heptagon[/b][/u] Oyababy [/quote] I had you as write-in, but unfortunately the Charter would not let me.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the outgoing government for their hard work, and the alliance for putting its trust in myself and the rest of this government. Know that we will do what is best for TOP and for our allies. We will leave noone behind if we sign peace. In Hoc Signo Vinces!

[quote name='Kijuna69' date='10 February 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1265820996' post='2172746'] -Per the terms of [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=70180"]the MK-NpO MDoAP[/url] the Alliance of Angry Bees considers this equal to an attack on the New Polar Order. [/quote] Actually, I don't see that term, but okay. Welcome, it is a pleasure to add one more to our stat collection.

[quote name='Cataduanes' date='10 February 2010 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1265811872' post='2172556'] Not only not clever but unwarranted surely , since when have pre-emptive strikes been an acceptable option in CN? [/quote] Since forever, notable examples being the first Polar War if I heard it right, in some sense GW1, GOONS-Fark (IE GW2), Legion in GW3, WoTC...

Best? Managing to get TOP into WUT. Worst? Probably attacking Bilrow when he hit one of our guys. It worked out alright, I admit, but it shouldn't have

[quote name='AVFC1' date='09 February 2010 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1265744974' post='2170982'] 2 of their top 10 have 0 soldiers, did it occur to you that maybe they had been nuked and not logged in to buy soldiers when you checked their nations? [/quote] It occurred to us... And then we noticed it actually happened to a lot of nations who had just DoWed and could thus only have reached 0 soldiers and anarchy by their own choice.

Krack, at what point was Grämlins at risk of being rolled, and by whom? In November 2008, they were allied to multiple Continuum members, after all.

Mafal Dadaranell mourns over 1 million dead in this war alone, for a total of 2.2 million. The sad legacies of wars ranging from attacks by rogues under the aegis of the first Pax Pacifica to battles with Bilrow to the 2nd and 3rd Great Wars, to these last days of heavy full nuclear fighting in this Bipolar War.

I would just like to ask: Is there actually a BETTER CB than 'we are going to fight some day soon, with both of us doing our best to make that happen in the best possible circumstances'?

[quote name='Gopherbashi' date='09 February 2010 - 05:17 AM' timestamp='1265689056' post='2169749'] It also lets me know that there are 211 "individual" conflicts, with TOP leading the way by being at war with 17 alliances. [/quote] If you want to be a stat collector, you must do it properly

[quote name='Tromp' date='08 February 2010 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1265650339' post='2168852'] Lol what? This doesn't even make sense. Also, why not attack \m/, GOONS or PC then? [/quote] They were pretty much engaged. \m/ and PC at least. I see no reason to deploy the firepower of TOP to stop PC raiding if all that does is waste our firepower to attack a symptom while C&G will just roll in to ensure the root cause remains.